There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
- Thread starter Swingalong
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
οτι εν αυτω εκτισθητα πανταεν τοις ουρανοις και επι της γης ταορατα και τααορατα ειτεθρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτεαρχαι ειτεεξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται
For by Him all things were created; by that in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or rulers, or magistrates, or authorities; all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians1.16)
Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power (i.e. “en”, “dia”, & “eis”).
Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time.
In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, “autos”.
The first instance of “autos” is in the dative singular masculine indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, “en”, rendered as “by”.
The second instance of “autos” is in the genitive singular masculine indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition “dia” rendered as, “through”.
The third instance of “autos” is in the accusative singular masculine again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, “eis”, rendered as “for”.
Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe.
Owned by your Tanak...
Isa 48.16 and 61.1 -2 are prophecies which have Yahweh The Son stating that Yahweh The Father would send Him to be The Messiah, and that Yahweh The Father would send Yahweh The Spirit with The Messiah.
Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit are sent out together, and they are sent out singly, frequently, (Isa 11.2; 34.16; 40.13; 42.01; 48.12 - 16; 59.20 - 21; 61.1 - 2; 63.10 - 14).
A few verses after Isa 61.1 - 2, the Servant of Yahweh calls Himself Yahweh…. ‘for I, Yahweh, love justice…’ Isa 61.8.
When Jesus stood up to read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue, He quoted Isa 61.1 - 2, as recorded in Luke 4.18 - 19, strongly suggesting that He is the same person as the ‘sent Yahweh’ who spoke in Isa 48.16 and Isa 61.8.
Isa 48.16 and 61.1 -2 are prophecies which have Yahweh The Son stating that Yahweh The Father would send Him to be The Messiah, and that Yahweh The Father would send Yahweh The Spirit with The Messiah.
Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit are sent out together, and they are sent out singly, frequently, (Isa 11.2; 34.16; 40.13; 42.01; 48.12 - 16; 59.20 - 21; 61.1 - 2; 63.10 - 14).
A few verses after Isa 61.1 - 2, the Servant of Yahweh calls Himself Yahweh…. ‘for I, Yahweh, love justice…’ Isa 61.8.
When Jesus stood up to read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue, He quoted Isa 61.1 - 2, as recorded in Luke 4.18 - 19, strongly suggesting that He is the same person as the ‘sent Yahweh’ who spoke in Isa 48.16 and Isa 61.8.
Jacob wrestles with The God-man
Jacob wrestles with The God-man
You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:
· The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
· Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
· Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
· Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
· Man (Gen 32.24)
Gen 32.24 - 30
And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered.
Compare…
Isaiah 45.3 - 5
And I will give you the treasures of darkness, even treasures in secret places, that you may know that I am Yahweh, who calls you by your name, the God of Israel. For My slave Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Yahweh, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me,
Jacob wrestles with The God-man
You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:
· The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
· Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
· Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
· Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
· Man (Gen 32.24)
Gen 32.24 - 30
And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered.
- The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28)
- Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)
- Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)
- The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name
- Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man
- Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man
- Jacob wrestled with The God-man
- Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son
Compare…
Isaiah 45.3 - 5
And I will give you the treasures of darkness, even treasures in secret places, that you may know that I am Yahweh, who calls you by your name, the God of Israel. For My slave Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Yahweh, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me,
God the Father:
The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone.
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are His children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord (in small capitals), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done by God were actually done by the Lord (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but we know that it was actually the Lord (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1:3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through His Spirit), mankind has a special relationship to Him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in His image, whereas all other things are but the work of His hands (Acts 17:28–29).
The God of the scriptures is a holy being. Man is commanded to be holy because God is holy (Lev. 11:44–45; 19:2). God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed or remain forever unknown. God first revealed Himself to Adam (Moses 5–6) and has repeatedly made Himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. No one has seen God except through faith. God the Father and His Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16–17), the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–8), and to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56).
The Father and the Son personally visited Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove in the spring of 1820 near Manchester, New York, in the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS--H 1:11–20).
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family, as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.
For other references to God, see Heb. 1:1–3; Jacob 4:5; D&C 20:17.
The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone.
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are His children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord (in small capitals), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done by God were actually done by the Lord (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but we know that it was actually the Lord (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1:3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through His Spirit), mankind has a special relationship to Him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in His image, whereas all other things are but the work of His hands (Acts 17:28–29).
The God of the scriptures is a holy being. Man is commanded to be holy because God is holy (Lev. 11:44–45; 19:2). God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed or remain forever unknown. God first revealed Himself to Adam (Moses 5–6) and has repeatedly made Himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. No one has seen God except through faith. God the Father and His Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16–17), the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–8), and to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56).
The Father and the Son personally visited Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove in the spring of 1820 near Manchester, New York, in the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS--H 1:11–20).
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family, as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.
For other references to God, see Heb. 1:1–3; Jacob 4:5; D&C 20:17.
M
Re: Jesus is God.
There is a clue in the word-forms showing that what is being said, is you cannot by your own strenth force your way into heaven to look upon God by your own strength. But Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy elders of Israel went up on the mountain, looked on the God of Iserael, and did eat and drink, and lived, and were surprised by it all.
This was how God demonstrated that man was accepted back into God's realm, that was lost when Adam fell.
The story is told in Exo 24:9-11. Nothing allegorical, or epochal, or any of those "figures of speech." It was permitted to demonstrate a point.
Your point is also correct. No man can see God and live, without God's invitation; which they had.
There is a clue in the word-forms showing that what is being said, is you cannot by your own strenth force your way into heaven to look upon God by your own strength. But Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy elders of Israel went up on the mountain, looked on the God of Iserael, and did eat and drink, and lived, and were surprised by it all.
This was how God demonstrated that man was accepted back into God's realm, that was lost when Adam fell.
The story is told in Exo 24:9-11. Nothing allegorical, or epochal, or any of those "figures of speech." It was permitted to demonstrate a point.
Your point is also correct. No man can see God and live, without God's invitation; which they had.
M
Right! And John 1:1 is not related anywhere else in the New Testament either. So much for that point.
Over and over we are told Jesus is the image of God. Are you telling me "xarakteer of his upostasis" means "equality with God?" I know that's the result of your belief, but it is not what scripture says.
And your attack on my ability to properly exegete the verse does not deal with the issue, it avoids it and changes the focus of the point.
Neither does enhancing what God said, by telling us what he left out; like omo-ousian, theos 'o 'uios, and a bunch of other doctines.
But back to the point. If you take a rubber stamp to use in repetitive work to make an image of something on papar, you might notice the stamp is the reverse of the original. That image on the stamp is what is called xarakteer in the Greek.l When that stamp is inked and placed upon a surface, what appears is the image of the original. It has been twice-reversed.
When the saints conform to the image of his son, which is the image of the Father, the image of God becomes stamped upon the saints. Simple. succinct. Properly exegeted.
M
I continue to be amazed at the machinations of trinity doctrinaires.
God is indeed the God of the living, but that is NOT Jesus Christ speaking nor is it he being quoted, for scripture tells us plainly that Jesus is Lord of something that God is not the God of.
God is the God of the living, and not God of the dead.
Jesus is Lord of both the living and the Dead. So Jesus cannot be God. That would make Jesus the Lord of something he is not the God of. And if he were God, he could not be Lord of it for he could never be less than God. Even God cannot be less than God.
Please indicate which in verse you discovered "Theos 'o 'uios!"
Really? then who are the mal-awk created by Jehovah? (or as you say "malek" I would not dispute the spelling, only offer an alternate in accord with my own resources, which may or may not be as good as yours.)
Psalm 148:1
Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.2 Praise ye him, all his mal-ak [angels]: praise ye him, all his hosts.3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Gen 16:7 And [mal-awk Jehovah] the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
The phrase "Of The Lord" is in the genitive in the Septuagint. And in the Hebrew It is not "malawk Jehovah" but is mal-awk of Jehovah. And it is so translated into English.
See previous response.
Total nonsense! Abraham never spoke to Jesus, in fact, never met Jesus, and Jesus makes no such claim, and neither does John who records it.
What did Jesus say?
What did John record that Jesus said? "Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced."
Trinitarians like to use this as proof that Abraham saw Jesus, and conversely, that Jesus was around in Abraham's dasy, speaking with Abraham.
But that is not what John said and it is not what Jesus said.
Jesus said "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This man is telling us that Jesus' day has already come.
Now watch as the new testament destroys this small part of trinitarian doctrine, that Jesus day is past, and Jesus saw and spoke to Abraham;
Abraham did not rejoice to see Jesus in the flesh, he rejoiced to see the day of Christ, in prophecy. The proof? Read on..."Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."[Jn 8:56]
The saints wait for the day of Christ "unto the end," not "at the beginning."
"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."[I Cor 1:4-8]
The day of Jesus christ is future and active -"For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will [epitelew] perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"[Phil 1:5-6] [epitelew verb ind future active 3rd per sing]
Saints are expected to grow in knowledge and in judgment till the "day of Christ." This cannot be true if the day of Christ was in the day of Abraham."And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent;that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;"[Phil 1:9-10]
Paul himself hoped to rejoice in "the day of Christ," not "in memory of" the day of Christ. "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."[Phil 2:16]
Paul says that any man who tells you that the day of Christ already came, or even that it is near at hand, is a deceiver. "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."[II Thes 2:2-4]
Now look at a proper exegesis of John's account "John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am," should read "Before Abraham became I was."
The word translated "Was" in King James Version, comes from Greek worh "ginomai" which is the same word used in Luke 23:12 to tell us "And the same day Pilate and Herod ginomai [were made](became) friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
And two verses that translate Greek "eimi" WAS.
THE FIRST:
"And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I [was] an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:"[Luke 19:22] [NOTE: eimi = indicative present active 1st person singular form of eimi; but in this verse is translated "was" to accomodate the pluperfect form of "to know" which is "knewest" (oida). [hdeis = indicative pluperfect form of oida] The Greek pluperfect is used to describe an action that was completed, and whose effect is felt at a time after the completion of the action, but before the time of the speaker/writer.(The effect of the action of the perfect is felt at the time of the speaker/writer.)
THE SECOND:
Only one vere in all of scripture says "He was God" and that is found in - "And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that Jehovah he was God." [II Chron 33:13][NOTE: ["Was"= estin = indicative present active 3rd person singular form of eimi],Estin is translated "Was" to accomodate the aorist active form of ginwsko, "egnw."
Eimi translated "was." If the translators can translate "eimi" to read God "was" or "he was God" with reference to Jehovah, then the translators can translate "eimi" = indicative present active 1st person singular form of eimi, to read "Was;" as found in John 8:58.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham [genesthai aorist deponent form of verb infinitive ginomai] became, I was."
God is indeed the God of the living, but that is NOT Jesus Christ speaking nor is it he being quoted, for scripture tells us plainly that Jesus is Lord of something that God is not the God of.
God is the God of the living, and not God of the dead.
Jesus is Lord of both the living and the Dead. So Jesus cannot be God. That would make Jesus the Lord of something he is not the God of. And if he were God, he could not be Lord of it for he could never be less than God. Even God cannot be less than God.
Please indicate which in verse you discovered "Theos 'o 'uios!"
Really? then who are the mal-awk created by Jehovah? (or as you say "malek" I would not dispute the spelling, only offer an alternate in accord with my own resources, which may or may not be as good as yours.)
Psalm 148:1
Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.2 Praise ye him, all his mal-ak [angels]: praise ye him, all his hosts.3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Gen 16:7 And [mal-awk Jehovah] the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
The phrase "Of The Lord" is in the genitive in the Septuagint. And in the Hebrew It is not "malawk Jehovah" but is mal-awk of Jehovah. And it is so translated into English.
See previous response.
Total nonsense! Abraham never spoke to Jesus, in fact, never met Jesus, and Jesus makes no such claim, and neither does John who records it.
What did Jesus say?
What did John record that Jesus said? "Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced."
Trinitarians like to use this as proof that Abraham saw Jesus, and conversely, that Jesus was around in Abraham's dasy, speaking with Abraham.
But that is not what John said and it is not what Jesus said.
Jesus said "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This man is telling us that Jesus' day has already come.
Now watch as the new testament destroys this small part of trinitarian doctrine, that Jesus day is past, and Jesus saw and spoke to Abraham;
Abraham did not rejoice to see Jesus in the flesh, he rejoiced to see the day of Christ, in prophecy. The proof? Read on..."Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."[Jn 8:56]
The saints wait for the day of Christ "unto the end," not "at the beginning."
"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."[I Cor 1:4-8]
The day of Jesus christ is future and active -"For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will [epitelew] perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"[Phil 1:5-6] [epitelew verb ind future active 3rd per sing]
Saints are expected to grow in knowledge and in judgment till the "day of Christ." This cannot be true if the day of Christ was in the day of Abraham."And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent;that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;"[Phil 1:9-10]
Paul himself hoped to rejoice in "the day of Christ," not "in memory of" the day of Christ. "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."[Phil 2:16]
Paul says that any man who tells you that the day of Christ already came, or even that it is near at hand, is a deceiver. "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."[II Thes 2:2-4]
Now look at a proper exegesis of John's account "John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am," should read "Before Abraham became I was."
The word translated "Was" in King James Version, comes from Greek worh "ginomai" which is the same word used in Luke 23:12 to tell us "And the same day Pilate and Herod ginomai [were made](became) friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
And two verses that translate Greek "eimi" WAS.
THE FIRST:
"And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I [was] an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:"[Luke 19:22] [NOTE: eimi = indicative present active 1st person singular form of eimi; but in this verse is translated "was" to accomodate the pluperfect form of "to know" which is "knewest" (oida). [hdeis = indicative pluperfect form of oida] The Greek pluperfect is used to describe an action that was completed, and whose effect is felt at a time after the completion of the action, but before the time of the speaker/writer.(The effect of the action of the perfect is felt at the time of the speaker/writer.)
THE SECOND:
Only one vere in all of scripture says "He was God" and that is found in - "And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that Jehovah he was God." [II Chron 33:13][NOTE: ["Was"= estin = indicative present active 3rd person singular form of eimi],Estin is translated "Was" to accomodate the aorist active form of ginwsko, "egnw."
Eimi translated "was." If the translators can translate "eimi" to read God "was" or "he was God" with reference to Jehovah, then the translators can translate "eimi" = indicative present active 1st person singular form of eimi, to read "Was;" as found in John 8:58.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham [genesthai aorist deponent form of verb infinitive ginomai] became, I was."
Last edited by a moderator:
I prayed about this long before you said anything sir, but praying about what you said won't change what I see. If I walk in sin, and/or don't love the truth, and afterwards repent and pray about it, then I would see differently. But that is not the case. I still see you rejecting plain Hebrew and Greek words that have been translated into English.
The lady that started this thread also read and used scripture from the same bible that we all use and was banned for the revelation she had. FYI, not all revelation is given by God. We might only know part of the truth, but if it is from God, it should be on the right track to the whole truth. Many who interpret scripture incorrectly, are either not God's children, or are walking in sin, or have an agenda they wish to propagate and therefore are not interested in the truth, or hold to a doctrine because their church teaches what they believe and therefore it is dear to their heart, or because the other doctrine might offend them, or the like. We all need to seek God with the purest of motives of the heart and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
I have seen some of your knowledge of scripture, but knowing what the scripture says and knowing what God is saying, can be two entirely different things. To understand your knowledge of scripture to a point, but I find that I would have to ignore or change the meaning of many words in scripture to get it to fit that form of doctrine.
Sir, you sound like you're a nice guy, like most on this forum, but I have seen many nice people reject sound truth and wisdom for one reason or another. Most will hold to what they have been taught and reject everything that is contrary to what their church teaches, because they are under the covering of the spirit of that church. That can be both a good and bad thing. But if the leader be blind, then the congregation will be the same.
I'm not trying to be mean, this is just what I have observed.
M
So you are now making it a standard for exegesis that a word has to be found at least twice in scripture before it can be properly assessed? Except for Trinitarian assessors of course?
If that is the case you should have corrected the translation when you first came onto the internet. You cannot claim a thing is wrong for the fact of single use.
M
You invented that little "Gem from Isaiah. The Hebrew word-form has a singular suffix, making the word singular, and the Greek has a singular word-form. You are trying to build a trinity from a plural noun-form which Hebrew language supplie splentifully. Because the Hebrew supplies does not give you the freedom to apply any old way you want to.
You're digging yourself deeper and deeper into the unitarian hole...
Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…
Mark 12.26
But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?
Mark 12 informs the reader that that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Acts 7.30 - 39
And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,
Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.
Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…
Mark 12.26
But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?
Mark 12 informs the reader that that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Acts 7.30 - 39
And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,
Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.
What you deceitfully attempted to do was to reverse-translate Heb 1.3 and use the term 'image' as imparting the same meaning as used by a completely different word, in completely different scripture.
What you failed to realize, because you don't know how to exegete, and you repeatedly plagiarize your replies from the internet, is that Heb 1.3 uses a completely different word than used ANYWHERE else in the entire NT.
Thus...if you were cognizant, then you would have known that this Greek word does NOT impart the same meaning as 'image' elsewhere in scripture.
This is basic stuff.
The Book of Hebrews utterly destroys your world-view.
The Book of Hebrews is aptly named for the OT material of which it contains.
Heb 1.1 immediately informs the reader that the One God of the OT has always revealed Himself ‘by many portions’ (polymeros) and ‘in various forms’ (polytropos).
These two Greek terms are only used this one time/ea in the entirety of the Holy Bible, and lexically are defined as ‘One of the constituent parts of a whole; in a context where the whole and its parts are distinguished.’
A clear signal of the ONE Triune Creator God of the Universe.
Last edited:
Owned again...
Mat 28.19
πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος
Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.
However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.
Three Persons in one Being.
This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).
Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.
Mat 28.19
πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος
Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.
However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.
Three Persons in one Being.
This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).
Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.