There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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Scriptures which PROVE trinity:
- [h=3]Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (NKJV)[/h]
- [h=3]2 Corinthians 13:14 -- The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. (NKJV)[/h]
- [h=3]John 1:1 &3 - 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (NKJV)[/h]
- [h=3]John 24:25-26 - "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (NKJV)[/h]
- Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (NKJV)
Sir, my passion is toward God and everything He stands for. To me, the truth is the main focus here, and no one can receive that except it be given to him or her by God, and that won't happen if they have a hard heart. When God said His word is spiritually discerned, He wasn't speaking allegorically or metaphorically, He is the One who gives the revelation of His Word. When He mentions hell, it's not an allegory nor is it a metaphor either, it is real and literal.
Also, I wasn't talking about whether one gets saved or not. I was saying, many of those who are saved, will not go beyond that of a babe in Christ because of the condition of their heart. Most Christians, in my opinion, are so set in their ways, in the flesh, and in doubt, that God would be hard pressed to get the truth through to them.
I also thanked you when you did respond to my questions. The problem I saw with you, was that you are so far out in left field with how man is made, and so set in what you believe, that it would be fruitless for me to even try to show you otherwise. If a person rejects what another has said without prayerfully seeking God concerning the matter, then they are not interested in the truth. They will be ever learning, but never able to come to the truth.
I personally am not interested in a consensus, nor do I care how many others think or believe the way I do, or don't, for that matter. I care about the truth, but walking in the love of God and love toward man is more important than that.
As for your first and second questions, I fail to see what bearing it has on the subject of the trinity of God and man.
For you first question, I see the body as merely a vessel for the soul in the physical realm. What body does the soul use when it is in the spirit realm? It obviously has senses that function in the spirit world. Is the soul a spiritual body itself?
I myself see nothing wrong with your second statement/question.
There's just one God.. The trinity or tri-unity just describes the 3 attributes of a single Godhead, the 3 work and have always existed as one entity.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Here, Elohiym is the plural form of God. Therefore, as scripture was inspired and man began to write the Word, it was evident to the writers that God was made of more than 1 Person but at the same time there was one Godhead.
The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
Just as a person thinks, speaks, and acts, God is all knowledge, Christ is the expression and manifestation, and the Spirit is the action and deed. The 3 are united persona's of one entity that best describe the Godhead.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Here, Elohiym is the plural form of God. Therefore, as scripture was inspired and man began to write the Word, it was evident to the writers that God was made of more than 1 Person but at the same time there was one Godhead.
The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
Just as a person thinks, speaks, and acts, God is all knowledge, Christ is the expression and manifestation, and the Spirit is the action and deed. The 3 are united persona's of one entity that best describe the Godhead.
You again have tried to explain John 10:30 only. And if you just have John 10:30, you can believe strongly that Jesus and his Father are 1 God, or 3 Persons in 1 God. I admit that.
You cannot have that continuation of thought if you read John 17. You cannot reconcile 3 in 1 with John 17. Try it, reconcile John 10 with john 17. That is the dilemma I found myself in. I had to go another way because 3 in 1 did not answer the questions. 3 in 3 did. All of the questions. All of the scriptures.
Then read 1 Corinthians 3:7-9 with particular attention to vs 8. "Now he that watereth (Apollos) and he that
planteth (Paul) are one.
It is obvious that Paul and Apollos are not a 2 in 1 being. But they are 2 in 2 acting as 1, Just like John 10:30, just like
John 17.
As far as the throne of God is concerned, you can think of it symbolically if you wish. I think it is real. When John says a door was opened into heaven and he saw a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne was like a jasper (like a brilliant diamond).... I believe he saw it and it is real. There are many anthropomorphic descriptions of God in the scriptures, this is not a new thing.
The problem you have is that to you, God is not anthropomorphic, so you have to symbolize anything that describes God in human form. For that matter, if God is not anthropomorphic then that is a good reason to say that Jesus is not God. Jesus was the height of God in human form while he dwelt on earth with us. He has a body of flesh and bone today and sits on the right side of God (who apparently to John looks pretty anthropomorphic) and is awaiting his second return.
And the real reason for the John 10 to John 17 was only to emphasize your comment that according to Rev. 3:21 it looked like Jesus and God were sitting occupying same throne, hence they are 3 in 1 God. You didn't mention that in that same verse Jesus was sitting in his throne with all the people of earth that overcame the world. Please comment on that part of the verse. How do you reconcile "I grant all those who overcome to sit with me in my throne" with "as I have overcome and sit with my Father in his throne". Looks to me like billions are occupying the same throne. By the way this vs seems to indicate that there are 2 thrones now, Jesus's throne and God's throne, are they symbolic or are they real?
You cannot have that continuation of thought if you read John 17. You cannot reconcile 3 in 1 with John 17. Try it, reconcile John 10 with john 17. That is the dilemma I found myself in. I had to go another way because 3 in 1 did not answer the questions. 3 in 3 did. All of the questions. All of the scriptures.
Then read 1 Corinthians 3:7-9 with particular attention to vs 8. "Now he that watereth (Apollos) and he that
planteth (Paul) are one.
It is obvious that Paul and Apollos are not a 2 in 1 being. But they are 2 in 2 acting as 1, Just like John 10:30, just like
John 17.
As far as the throne of God is concerned, you can think of it symbolically if you wish. I think it is real. When John says a door was opened into heaven and he saw a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne was like a jasper (like a brilliant diamond).... I believe he saw it and it is real. There are many anthropomorphic descriptions of God in the scriptures, this is not a new thing.
The problem you have is that to you, God is not anthropomorphic, so you have to symbolize anything that describes God in human form. For that matter, if God is not anthropomorphic then that is a good reason to say that Jesus is not God. Jesus was the height of God in human form while he dwelt on earth with us. He has a body of flesh and bone today and sits on the right side of God (who apparently to John looks pretty anthropomorphic) and is awaiting his second return.
And the real reason for the John 10 to John 17 was only to emphasize your comment that according to Rev. 3:21 it looked like Jesus and God were sitting occupying same throne, hence they are 3 in 1 God. You didn't mention that in that same verse Jesus was sitting in his throne with all the people of earth that overcame the world. Please comment on that part of the verse. How do you reconcile "I grant all those who overcome to sit with me in my throne" with "as I have overcome and sit with my Father in his throne". Looks to me like billions are occupying the same throne. By the way this vs seems to indicate that there are 2 thrones now, Jesus's throne and God's throne, are they symbolic or are they real?
Re: Jesus is God.
I think begotten here is manifested in flesh, put here to redeem flesh as in him only, for us to reckon ourselves dead to flesh with him back at the cross and born again, alive in the Holy Spirit of God. I personally see to do this as a daily habit, each day, so that I might not sin against God.
Flesh verses Spirit of God. And today after the cross, death, resurrection, ascension, and delivery of the Holy Ghost that started at Pentecost. We are made alive to God in the Spirit of God, the very first day we decied to believe God
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I think begotten here is manifested in flesh, put here to redeem flesh as in him only, for us to reckon ourselves dead to flesh with him back at the cross and born again, alive in the Holy Spirit of God. I personally see to do this as a daily habit, each day, so that I might not sin against God.
Flesh verses Spirit of God. And today after the cross, death, resurrection, ascension, and delivery of the Holy Ghost that started at Pentecost. We are made alive to God in the Spirit of God, the very first day we decied to believe God
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Re: Jesus is God.
The battle to this day has not changed
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
The battle to this day has not changed
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
E
you missed the whole point.
Paul and appolos are one. The are unified on their mission and unified in what they did, all in line with God.
this is no different than the trinity. they are unified in everything, thus they are one. yet each one as the characteristics of what we call God.
as for john 17, it shows this.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
How could jesus have Gory with the father before creation? Unless he was there with him. Would this not make him God, since he was not a created being. like the angels and mankind?
you still have major issues.
1. jesus was not created. he was before abraham, he was with God in the begining (before time) he has no beginning or end (he is eternal)
2. Jesus called himself God by the things he said. thats why the pharisees wanted to stone him for blasphemy
3. Thomas called him God. Jesus did not refute him or say he was wrong.
4. The God of Isreal, was prophesied to be sent from the father, and in this he would be the messiah.
It is not just a new testament teaching.
Paul and appolos are one. The are unified on their mission and unified in what they did, all in line with God.
this is no different than the trinity. they are unified in everything, thus they are one. yet each one as the characteristics of what we call God.
as for john 17, it shows this.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
How could jesus have Gory with the father before creation? Unless he was there with him. Would this not make him God, since he was not a created being. like the angels and mankind?
you still have major issues.
1. jesus was not created. he was before abraham, he was with God in the begining (before time) he has no beginning or end (he is eternal)
2. Jesus called himself God by the things he said. thats why the pharisees wanted to stone him for blasphemy
3. Thomas called him God. Jesus did not refute him or say he was wrong.
4. The God of Isreal, was prophesied to be sent from the father, and in this he would be the messiah.
It is not just a new testament teaching.
I did not miss the point. Apollos and Paul are one, just like you say, in exactly the same way that Jesus and God are one.
They are 2 separate and distinct people acting as one in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action (2 in 2). Just like Jesus and God are 2 separate and distinct people acting as one in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action 2 in 2, 3 in 3 if you include the Holy Spirit). They all have the designation of God (they are just not 3 in 1). That is my whole point. John 17:20-22 makes this point perfectly, and reconciles the oneness of John 10:30, which is mistakenly used to create a 3 in 1 God.
I too believe that Jesus was with the Father from the beginning and was a glorious God whose uncreated spirit body was incarnated into his begotten flesh and bone body and he was sent to earth by God to dwell with man to bring about the salvation of man. He is still in his now resurrected flesh and bone body in heaven seated on the right hand of God awaiting his second coming.
They are 2 separate and distinct people acting as one in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action (2 in 2). Just like Jesus and God are 2 separate and distinct people acting as one in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action 2 in 2, 3 in 3 if you include the Holy Spirit). They all have the designation of God (they are just not 3 in 1). That is my whole point. John 17:20-22 makes this point perfectly, and reconciles the oneness of John 10:30, which is mistakenly used to create a 3 in 1 God.
I too believe that Jesus was with the Father from the beginning and was a glorious God whose uncreated spirit body was incarnated into his begotten flesh and bone body and he was sent to earth by God to dwell with man to bring about the salvation of man. He is still in his now resurrected flesh and bone body in heaven seated on the right hand of God awaiting his second coming.
F
The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.
The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:
1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).
2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.
In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.
3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.
4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.
6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.
The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).
The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:
1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).
2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.
In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.
3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.
4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.
6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.
The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).
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John 17, especially vs's 20-22 expresses the straight-forward doctrine that I, as a believer can be "one" with God, in exactly the same way that Jesus is "one" with God. In fact we can become "one with them". Any Bible student when reading that should immediately think of
John 10:30. Does this mean that I can be the 4th Person in the Trinity? Does this mean that the Trinity includes billions of believers that are "one" with God? You have to ask yourself these questions.
The answer is "OF COURSE NOT."
So what does it mean then to be "one" with God?
What does it mean for Jesus to be "one" with God?
How can there be billions of separate and distinct individuals and still be "one" with God.
The answer is Jesus and God are not 3 in 1, they are 3 in 3 acting in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action so perfectly that it is as if they are 1. That is the only way we can reconcile John 10:30 and John 17:20-22 with what it means to be "one" with God. Billions can be in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action with God so perfectly that it is as if they are 1. Just like Jesus and God are 1. Just like Paul and Apollos are 1. The scriptures all fit in a perfect mosaic of doctrine.
John 10:30. Does this mean that I can be the 4th Person in the Trinity? Does this mean that the Trinity includes billions of believers that are "one" with God? You have to ask yourself these questions.
The answer is "OF COURSE NOT."
So what does it mean then to be "one" with God?
What does it mean for Jesus to be "one" with God?
How can there be billions of separate and distinct individuals and still be "one" with God.
The answer is Jesus and God are not 3 in 1, they are 3 in 3 acting in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action so perfectly that it is as if they are 1. That is the only way we can reconcile John 10:30 and John 17:20-22 with what it means to be "one" with God. Billions can be in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action with God so perfectly that it is as if they are 1. Just like Jesus and God are 1. Just like Paul and Apollos are 1. The scriptures all fit in a perfect mosaic of doctrine.
Have you prayed about what I have said?
I read a lot from the scriptures. I read a lot about what people think the scriptures say. It is remarkable that we can read the same scriptures and get such a different view as to what they say. We will just have to agree to disagree about our knowledge of the scriptures. Thanks for the discussion, I will always enjoy the discussion.
I read a lot from the scriptures. I read a lot about what people think the scriptures say. It is remarkable that we can read the same scriptures and get such a different view as to what they say. We will just have to agree to disagree about our knowledge of the scriptures. Thanks for the discussion, I will always enjoy the discussion.