Ok to be lesbian?

[Radius]

Romans 1:26-27 puts this invalid assumption to rest: “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Clearly, this passage puts lesbianism on equal ground with male homosexuality.

​

 

[Radius]

There’s an implication in Romans 1:26 that lesbianism is even worse than male homosexuality. Notice the phrase “even their women.” The text seems to suggest that it is more common for men to engage in sexual depravity, and when women begin to do it, that is a sign things are getting really bad. Men usually have much stronger sex drives than women, and so are more prone to sexual deviancy. When women commit unnatural sexual acts, then the degree of immorality has truly become shameful. Lesbianism is evidence of people being given over to “the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another” (Romans 1:24).

​

 

[crossnote]

My profile status says unsure, yes. This is in the sense that I look at things from the perspective of a detective. That is to say, I can believe in things, but I will never assume anything without logical proof. Logical proof is that one person plus another person equals two people and not three. I cannot ascertain GOD or that Christianity is right but can still believe and follow the religion as if I do. I follow the moral layout, and I do see myself as a selfish person and do what I can to make myself better. If I believe without proof, though, then it becomes easy to be deceived. If I get lost in possibilities such as the world being virtual reality or a dream, then I lose touch with reality.

That is to say that if I grew up having visions or something, and most of them came true, assuming that the next vision would come true would be what could potentially be what a demon wants me to believe. Imagine if I trust the vision, and it turns out to have been a clever lie that ruins my life or even someone elses? It is in this sense that I never assume anything I cannot ascertain. In other words, I work with logical proof to ground myself so that I do not become lost in a lie. That is what I mean by uncertain.

However, on the same coin, I cannot deny the possibility either. It is possible for GOD to exist, for Christianity to be true, and for me to require salvation. I have nothing that logically proves otherwise. It is in this sense that I am Christian.

Mankind by his fallen reason alone cannot come to saving faith in God, it takes a work of His Word and His Spirit.
This is why He lays open the invitation to ask, seek, and knock and He promises to open our understanding by revealing Himself through His crucified Son to us.


And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:16-17)

(Luk 11:9-13)

 

[Huckleberry]

I have reason to believe that being lesbian is not a sin.

The idea that being lesbian is a sin, particularly an act of sexual immorality, appears to be referring to two things found in the Bible.

The first, is this:

Leviticus 18:22

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (KJV)
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (ESV & NSRV)
"You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable." (HCSB)

which is a line in a list of sexual immoralities addressed directly by GOD.

However, this is a line that specifically states a man may not sleep with a man in the same way as they would with a woman.
This does not say that a woman can not sleep with a woman as they would with a man.

In other words, this is a rule for men, not women.

Argument 1:
It's implied that same sex relations are wrong.
Counterargument 1:
The very next line states "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto". This addresses a rule specifically for women in a separate section of the same line. It comes off as strange that it would be so specific here, yet not specific in the rule made immediately before it. If it was a rule against women doing it with women, then it would likely say something along the lines of "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; Neither shall any woman sleep with a woman as with a man: it is detestable". However, it did not do so, which comes off as strange considering the formatting of the rule that comes immediately after it.

Argument 2:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.". The bolded part is saying that women may not do so either.
Counterargument 2:
If that were the case, then "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." the bolded part here would be separate. Even if they are not separate, then no matter how you twist this, the closest thing you are going to get to a rule about lesbians would be "You may not sleep with a man as you would with a woman, neither shall any woman sleep with a man as they would with a woman."

Argument 3:
If it is not okay for two men to have a sexual relationship, then why would it be okay for two women to have a sexual relationship?! Just because the bible does not explicitly say it is unacceptable for two women to have a sexual relationship does not mean that it is okay!
Counterargument 3:
See Counterargument 1:. We can't assume that it is a sin if it does not explicitly say so. There is actually nothing here suggesting it is wrong to have a lesbian relationship, so there is no reason to act like it is.

Argument 4:
Are you a lesbian? If so, then this whole topic is you twisting the Bible and manipulating to have your way! You are just making it mean something else to your own benefit! That is not good in the eyes of GOD.
Counterargument 4:
I am not lesbian. In fact, the thought of doing something like that personally grosses and creeps me out a bit (Although the thought of doing it with a man also grosses me out. I'm a virgin btw. I plan on staying that way for life.). That much is irrelevant regardless. As for what my motive is behind this topic, a few things. You are making lesbians feel like they will go to hell for what they are and how they feel. Moreover, it is possible that it is not even a sin in the first place! More importantly, you are turning them away from GOD by saying so. You may think that because they would turn from GOD to indulge in being lesbian, that they were already too sinful in the first place. This is incorrect. It turns them away because they believe that if GOD is the kind of person that would send people to hell over something like love, that GOD is a cruel being. Even so, many lesbians try to be Christian regardless, and are put down by daring to call themselves Christian while being so sexually perverse and immoral. This makes Christians, some who are likely the home of much more sin in general, look bad, and turns them away from the religion. This also makes them feel like a minority doomed to hell for how they are. In other words, you are making Christianity a thing that makes them miserable and ruins their life. And for what? Because we think a verse may imply that it is wrong without even explicitly saying so? Aren't we contradicting ourselves, to think we will be fine for our sins that we choose to do in our lives as well as the sinful tendencies that we call a part of who we are and what we are? Unforgivable, by most but not GOD who is understanding and has forgiven you for all of your sins that are much more vast than the one potential sin you pointed out.

Additionally, there is nothing logically incorrect about anything that I pointed out. It does not say it is a sin for women to sleep with women as they would with a man. That means there is nothing suggesting that it is a sin in the first place. Why would this "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." be worded this way, but the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" that comes immediately afterwards be so specific and address women separately?

Argument 5:
So according to you, it's perfectly fine to be lesbian! Great! Now society is one step closer to incest and pedophilia!
Counterargument 5:
No more so than heterosexual relationships. In fact, GOD specified against incest and pedophilia in the section regarding sexual immoralities. Do not forget, however, that we are not to judge, and that we need to focus on ourselves as much as possible. We are sinful ourselves, and have no time to focus on the immorality of society or the acts of others. It is not your place to judge, and I believe, judging is the one of very few ways to get GOD to judge you now that Jesus has died for your sins. Another, is sinning purposefully as though you have a get out of jail free card and do true evil feeling you will meet no consequence. Do not judge, or you too will be judged, and with your unit of measure, it will be measured to you.

In other words, focus on yourself. Focus on yourself as much as you can. You need to do all you can to be good yourself. Teach others, but do not force the word down their throats. Do not abhore a sinful Christian, as they are in need of Christianity the most. Do not say "How dare you call yourself Christian when X" because the same should be said to you.


The other part:

Romans 1:18
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
Note here, that it is not GOD speaking, but the apostle Paul.

This appears to be written from the perspective of Paul who was watching what became of the people who worshiped an idol instead of GOD.

The verse does have this line "Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.". The way this is worded, seems more like a declaration of geniune surprise in response to the observation that even women were doing it with women.

The lines "And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.", also said by Paul, all seems to be referring specifically to men.

Although Paul was an apostle and therefore technically able to declare lesbian relationships as a sin, he was certainly not doing so at this time.

This combined with the list of sexual immoralities stated directly by GOD that specified for women in the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" but not in the line "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." convinced me that perhaps it is not actually a sin. It doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere else in the Bible as far as I know, unless i'm wrong? It appears as though it isn't explicitely or clearly stated anywhere in the Bible that lesbian relationships are wrong.

What do you think?

I didn't, erm, read much of your post because it's a waste of time.

Christ taught that the Pharisees, who obeyed the laws to the letter, were a bunch of phoney hypocrites.

He taught us that what is important is obeying the spirit of the
law, e.g., lust is veritable adultery, hate is veritable murder.

If you want to get together with other women and
put things inside each others' vaginas, well, you can.

Whether or not it's spelled out in the Bible to the letter,
it's sick and wrong and you know it.

Otherwise you wouldn't even be on here asking about it.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

This will sound like I am stretching the truth or twisting things in my favor, but isn't the current definition of sodomy deviant from the definition in the Bible? I believe Wikipedia also explains that the definition has changed in recent years and refers to laws in some countries. I believe that if a definition of sodomy exists in the Bible, that definition should be used...

As I said before im busy. Also, if you read the Bible it's apparent homosexuality in all forms is wrong. Let alone the reason it's called the "seed of copulation" is for a reason. I'm extremely busy now so I don't have time to debate this, but from a logical point of view I think I have given plenty of evidence to prove my perspective. If not then I hope that others here can persuade you to think otherwise. My apologies that I cant keep doing this debate, but I work in a few hours and I still havent slept or finished working out or done laundry so yea :S kind of busy. But I do hope you get the answer you are looking for.

 

[Kawaii]

There’s an implication in Romans 1:26 that lesbianism is even worse than male homosexuality. Notice the phrase “even their women.” The text seems to suggest that it is more common for men to engage in sexual depravity, and when women begin to do it, that is a sign things are getting really bad. Men usually have much stronger sex drives than women, and so are more prone to sexual deviancy. When women commit unnatural sexual acts, then the degree of immorality has truly become shameful. Lesbianism is evidence of people being given over to “the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another” (Romans 1:24).

​

That is another possibility, but there is no way to be certain. Even if it is a sin, I find it strange that they would be condemned for it without it being mentioned anywhere previously.

The possibilities I see now are:

1. Paul was observing and explained what he saw. He saw that men were committing the sin of being gay, "and even the women were doing it with women" as a statement of genuine surprise.

2. Paul was observing and explained that they all started committing sin.

3. Paul was observing and saw that things got so bad that even the women were doing it with women.

It still can't be overlooked that GOD did not mention it in the list of sexual immoralities, though. This leads me to believe that even if Paul was saying it was a sin, it could have potentially been a careless assumption similar to the one we made about the line in the list of sexual immoralities. I also have a hard time believing GOD would fail to include it in the list of sexual immoralities by accident...

I genuinely have no idea.

 

[Kawaii]

I didn't, erm, read much of your post because it's a waste of time.

Christ taught that the Pharisees, who obeyed the laws to the letter, were a bunch of phoney hypocrites.

He taught us that what is important is obeying the spirit of the
law, e.g., lust is veritable adultery, hate is veritable murder.

If you want to get together with other women and
put things inside each others' vaginas, well, you can.

Whether or not it's spelled out in the Bible to the letter,
it's sick and wrong and you know it.

Otherwise you wouldn't even be on here asking about it.

I would be asking about it, because the believe may very well be the byproduct of misinformation and assumption. Sticking things in other's vagina's for sexual pleasure does appear to be perverse, and may be a sin along with other sexual immoralities. What about general romantic feelings or even kissing, though? Or the desire to be with one another and the desire to be married, etc? That is, is romantic love between two girls really so wrong? So perverse? It gives off a different vibe from penetrative and sexual relationships. To me, it seems less perverse than most heterosexual relationships these days.

I don't really know either way. I can't say.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The devil has deceived you.

In Romans 1 Paul condemns homosexual acts, lesbian as well as male, in the same breath as idolatry (vv. 23–27), but his theological canvas is broader than that of Leviticus. Instead of treating homosexual behaviour as an expression of idolatrous worship, he traces both to the bad ‘exchange’ fallen man has made in departing from his Creator’s intention (vv. 25f.).

Seen from this angle, every homosexual act is unnatural (para physin, v. 26), not because it cuts across the individual’s natural sexual orientation (which, of course, it may not) or infringes OT law (contra McNeill), but because it flies in the face of God’s creation scheme for human sexual expression.

It is one thing to repent and become a Christian in recovery/sanctification struggling with sin issues in their life. This is the condition many Christians find themselves in. Perhaps all, to some extent. These are born-again and have aligned themselves with God in truth.

It is entirely another thing to justify one's sin as normal and refuse to repent aligning themselves with ungodliness in rebellion to God twisting His Word to "justify" it.

I have reason to believe that being lesbian is not a sin.

The idea that being lesbian is a sin, particularly an act of sexual immorality, appears to be referring to two things found in the Bible.

The first, is this:

Leviticus 18:22

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (KJV)
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (ESV & NSRV)
"You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable." (HCSB)

which is a line in a list of sexual immoralities addressed directly by GOD.

However, this is a line that specifically states a man may not sleep with a man in the same way as they would with a woman.
This does not say that a woman can not sleep with a woman as they would with a man.

In other words, this is a rule for men, not women.

What do you think?

 

[danschance]

I have reason to believe that being lesbian is not a sin.

The idea that being lesbian is a sin, particularly an act of sexual immorality, appears to be referring to two things found in the Bible.

The first, is this:

Leviticus 18:22

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (KJV)
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (ESV & NSRV)
"You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable." (HCSB)

which is a line in a list of sexual immoralities addressed directly by GOD.

However, this is a line that specifically states a man may not sleep with a man in the same way as they would with a woman.
This does not say that a woman can not sleep with a woman as they would with a man.

In other words, this is a rule for men, not women.

Argument 1:
It's implied that same sex relations are wrong.
Counterargument 1:
The very next line states "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto". This addresses a rule specifically for women in a separate section of the same line. It comes off as strange that it would be so specific here, yet not specific in the rule made immediately before it. If it was a rule against women doing it with women, then it would likely say something along the lines of "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; Neither shall any woman sleep with a woman as with a man: it is detestable". However, it did not do so, which comes off as strange considering the formatting of the rule that comes immediately after it.

Argument 2:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.". The bolded part is saying that women may not do so either.
Counterargument 2:
If that were the case, then "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." the bolded part here would be separate. Even if they are not separate, then no matter how you twist this, the closest thing you are going to get to a rule about lesbians would be "You may not sleep with a man as you would with a woman, neither shall any woman sleep with a man as they would with a woman."

Argument 3:
If it is not okay for two men to have a sexual relationship, then why would it be okay for two women to have a sexual relationship?! Just because the bible does not explicitly say it is unacceptable for two women to have a sexual relationship does not mean that it is okay!
Counterargument 3:
See Counterargument 1:. We can't assume that it is a sin if it does not explicitly say so. There is actually nothing here suggesting it is wrong to have a lesbian relationship, so there is no reason to act like it is.

Argument 4:
Are you a lesbian? If so, then this whole topic is you twisting the Bible and manipulating to have your way! You are just making it mean something else to your own benefit! That is not good in the eyes of GOD.
Counterargument 4:
I am not lesbian. In fact, the thought of doing something like that personally grosses and creeps me out a bit (Although the thought of doing it with a man also grosses me out. I'm a virgin btw. I plan on staying that way for life.). That much is irrelevant regardless. As for what my motive is behind this topic, a few things. You are making lesbians feel like they will go to hell for what they are and how they feel. Moreover, it is possible that it is not even a sin in the first place! More importantly, you are turning them away from GOD by saying so. You may think that because they would turn from GOD to indulge in being lesbian, that they were already too sinful in the first place. This is incorrect. It turns them away because they believe that if GOD is the kind of person that would send people to hell over something like love, that GOD is a cruel being. Even so, many lesbians try to be Christian regardless, and are put down by daring to call themselves Christian while being so sexually perverse and immoral. This makes Christians, some who are likely the home of much more sin in general, look bad, and turns them away from the religion. This also makes them feel like a minority doomed to hell for how they are. In other words, you are making Christianity a thing that makes them miserable and ruins their life. And for what? Because we think a verse may imply that it is wrong without even explicitly saying so? Aren't we contradicting ourselves, to think we will be fine for our sins that we choose to do in our lives as well as the sinful tendencies that we call a part of who we are and what we are? Unforgivable, by most but not GOD who is understanding and has forgiven you for all of your sins that are much more vast than the one potential sin you pointed out.

Additionally, there is nothing logically incorrect about anything that I pointed out. It does not say it is a sin for women to sleep with women as they would with a man. That means there is nothing suggesting that it is a sin in the first place. Why would this "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." be worded this way, but the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" that comes immediately afterwards be so specific and address women separately?

Argument 5:
So according to you, it's perfectly fine to be lesbian! Great! Now society is one step closer to incest and pedophilia!
Counterargument 5:
No more so than heterosexual relationships. In fact, GOD specified against incest and pedophilia in the section regarding sexual immoralities. Do not forget, however, that we are not to judge, and that we need to focus on ourselves as much as possible. We are sinful ourselves, and have no time to focus on the immorality of society or the acts of others. It is not your place to judge, and I believe, judging is the one of very few ways to get GOD to judge you now that Jesus has died for your sins. Another, is sinning purposefully as though you have a get out of jail free card and do true evil feeling you will meet no consequence. Do not judge, or you too will be judged, and with your unit of measure, it will be measured to you.

In other words, focus on yourself. Focus on yourself as much as you can. You need to do all you can to be good yourself. Teach others, but do not force the word down their throats. Do not abhore a sinful Christian, as they are in need of Christianity the most. Do not say "How dare you call yourself Christian when X" because the same should be said to you.


The other part:

Romans 1:18
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
Note here, that it is not GOD speaking, but the apostle Paul.

This appears to be written from the perspective of Paul who was watching what became of the people who worshiped an idol instead of GOD.

The verse does have this line "Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.". The way this is worded, seems more like a declaration of geniune surprise in response to the observation that even women were doing it with women.

The lines "And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.", also said by Paul, all seems to be referring specifically to men.

Although Paul was an apostle and therefore technically able to declare lesbian relationships as a sin, he was certainly not doing so at this time.

This combined with the list of sexual immoralities stated directly by GOD that specified for women in the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" but not in the line "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." convinced me that perhaps it is not actually a sin. It doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere else in the Bible as far as I know, unless i'm wrong? It appears as though it isn't explicitely or clearly stated anywhere in the Bible that lesbian relationships are wrong.

What do you think?

People can cut and paste whatever they wish to believe. Such as: Judas hung himself..go and do likewise. The bible must be looked at as a whole, not in part. Here is another verse in the bible about lesbians

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. Romans 1

 

[Kawaii]

As I said before im busy. Also, if you read the Bible it's apparent homosexuality in all forms is wrong. Let alone the reason it's called the "seed of copulation" is for a reason. I'm extremely busy now so I don't have time to debate this, but from a logical point of view I think I have given plenty of evidence to prove my perspective. If not then I hope that others here can persuade you to think otherwise. My apologies that I cant keep doing this debate, but I work in a few hours and I still havent slept or finished working out or done laundry so yea :S kind of busy. But I do hope you get the answer you are looking for.

Okay. Thank you for your time. Your input is appreciated

Good luck with everything!

 

[ji]

This is very easy to answer and I will say you wrote quite a lot and it took a while to read :S. All homosexual acts are sodomy. You should look up the definition of sodomy but to answer it briefly, any sexual act that can end in an orgasim that does not come to fruition through intercourse (penis in vagina) is sodomy.

As for Bible quotes, Sodom and Gomorrah is a very popular Bible story so I'm going to assume you know about it already. As for a more specific Bible quote about sodomy sending people to hell, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 should be one to view.

Keep in note, this is a popular thing that happens to Christians (including myself). You think, "Masturbation isnt mentioned in the Bible so is it really sinful?" Then you realize that masturbation falls under the category of sodomy, same with homosexual acts, and the like.

self pleasure comes in masturbation,...its not excluded
its mentioned in Holy Scripture..

 

[Nautilus]

This is very easy to answer and I will say you wrote quite a lot and it took a while to read :S. All homosexual acts are sodomy. You should look up the definition of sodomy but to answer it briefly, any sexual act that can end in an orgasim that does not come to fruition through intercourse (penis in vagina) is sodomy.

As for Bible quotes, Sodom and Gomorrah is a very popular Bible story so I'm going to assume you know about it already. As for a more specific Bible quote about sodomy sending people to hell, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 should be one to view.

Keep in note, this is a popular thing that happens to Christians (including myself). You think, "Masturbation isnt mentioned in the Bible so is it really sinful?" Then you realize that masturbation falls under the category of sodomy, same with homosexual acts, and the like.

You do realize that you are also condemning many heterosexual married couples with your definition of sodomy right?

 

[Nautilus]

Even as someone who supports gay rights in a secular sense...I must say this "interpretation" of scripture is looking through loopholes and fantastical at best.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I don't believe that lesbians love each other any less than any heterosexual partner does with another...

I would argue against this because if two women trully love eachother they would not sexually abuse eachother.

Sex is not the same thing as love.

For example; I trully love my mom and dad, so I would not ever sexually abuse or shame them. Just the same I love my friends that are male so I would not sodomize them. Just the same I love my friends that are female so I would not rape them or sleep with a woman that I did not intend on being with my entire life.

 

[Kawaii]

Even as someone who supports gay rights in a secular sense...I must say this "interpretation" of scripture is looking through loopholes and fantastical at best.

I imagine it certainly comes off that way. Still, I don't really see it as looking through loopholes. I genuinely realized that it was not clearly stated anywhere in the Bible, which to me created a logical discrepancy.

In other words, gay penetrative sex is clearly stated as a sin several times, but when I looked for the part that restricted lesbian relations I realized there was nothing that could confirm it to me for certain. That is, one was specific and defined clearly, but there was nothing on lesbians at all. Well, nothing except a vague statement made by Paul that does not explicitly say it's a sin. If the statement Paul made was declaring it a sin, then they were punished for an unspecified sin.

It certainly didn't appear to be though, or if it was, I can't be certain. That's the problem. Usually you could tell whether or not something is clearly something GOD does not want you to do, at least enough not to assume you may do so. In this case, though, the list of sexual immoralities makes this vague and suspicious, and being lesbian looks like a grey area to begin with. If GOD wanted to make a rule against lesbians, I truly believe GOD would have specified in the same section as the rule against gays.

When I thought "Is this evidence" then realized there was not enough, and was even the evidence of the list of sexual immoralities working against it. There are a handful of sections against gay relations but only one vague comment on lesbians lumped together with men sleeping with each other. I wouldn't usually think much of the comment by Paul enough to post a topic about it, but realized that combined with the list of sexual immoralities makes this debatable.

 

[danschance]

I imagine it certainly comes off that way. Still, I don't really see it as looking through loopholes. I genuinely realized that it was not clearly stated anywhere in the Bible, which to me created a logical discrepancy.

In other words, gay penetrative sex is clearly stated as a sin several times, but when I looked for the part that restricted lesbian relations I realized there was nothing that could confirm it to me for certain. That is, one was specific and defined clearly, but there was nothing on lesbians at all. Well, nothing except a vague statement made by Paul that does not explicitly say it's a sin. If the statement Paul made was declaring it a sin, then they were punished for an unspecified sin.

It certainly didn't appear to be though, or if it was, I can't be certain. That's the problem. Usually you could tell whether or not something is clearly something GOD does not want you to do, at least enough not to assume you may do so. In this case, though, the list of sexual immoralities makes this vague and suspicious, and being lesbian looks like a grey area to begin with. If GOD wanted to make a rule against lesbians, I truly believe GOD would have specified in the same section as the rule against gays.

When I thought "Is this evidence" then realized there was not enough, and was even the evidence of the list of sexual immoralities working against it. There are a handful of sections against gay relations but only one vague comment on lesbians lumped together with men sleeping with each other. I wouldn't usually think much of the comment by Paul enough to post a topic about it, but realized that combined with the list of sexual immoralities makes this debatable.

You are wrong, the bible does say lesbianism is wrong. Read the red letters:

[h=3]Romans 1:26-32[/h]New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [a]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing[b]indecent acts and receiving in [c]their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit [d]to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, [e]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

 

[Kawaii]

You are wrong, the bible does say lesbianism is wrong. Read the red letters:

This translation doesn't even say women are doing it with women. However, since the other translation does, I can't really say it's inaccurate.

It's a stretch, but combining the two translations together, you get "for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [a]unnatural and indulged in sex with each other and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing[b]indecent acts and receiving in [c]their own persons the due penalty of their error."

This was said by Paul rather than GOD, but Paul is also an apostle.

I can't really say i'm convinced either way, but this makes more working against lesbian relationships. Still, this leaves a few things.

1. This would be the first time it was announced as a sin.

2. GOD did not mention it in the list of sexual immoralities.

3. Paul is not GOD, although Paul is an apostle. This is just noteworthy.

In the end, I don't know.

 

[doseofreality]

This translation doesn't even say women are doing it with women. However, since the other translation does, I can't really say it's inaccurate.

It's a stretch, but combining the two translations together, you get "for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [a]unnatural and indulged in sex with each other and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing[b]indecent acts and receiving in [c]their own persons the due penalty of their error."

This was said by Paul rather than GOD, but Paul is also an apostle.

I can't really say i'm convinced either way, but this makes more working against lesbian relationships. Still, this leaves a few things.

1. This would be the first time it was announced as a sin.

2. GOD did not mention it in the list of sexual immoralities.

3. Paul is not GOD, although Paul is an apostle. This is just noteworthy.

In the end, I don't know.

You are not going to get anywhere with this argument.
The Bible is the inerrant word of God, christians believe that every word is inspired so it is same as if GOD said all of it even if in the text it is Paul's words. Otherwise you could disregard everything not preceded by "the Lord says..." or "and Jesus said..."

A couple of thoughts here:
The theme throughout the bible heavily favors procreation as the "natural" way of things. Any sexual act not leading to procreation was seen as sin. Lesbianism obviously does not naturally lead to procreation.

Also the bible was mainly male-centered as was the culture at the time of writing so lesbianism while being a sin would not be as strongly expressed due to its insignificance compared to male homosexuality.

 

[ji]

Did you, erm, read this?

READ THE WHOLE THING!! DONT SAY ITS LONG AND IGNORE IT!! please..

The first, is this:
Leviticus 18:22
----------------------------
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

"This does not say that a woman can not sleep with a woman as they would with a man.

In other words, this is a rule for men, not women." - your words

answer:-
Romans chapter 1 contains the answer for it.Don't say you don't have time to read and,then mislead others..
Romans 1:26,27 that many here have already quoted contains the answer..

"In other words, this is a rule for men, not women." - no you have been corrected on that.

Argument 1:
It's implied that same sex relations are wrong.

Counterargument 1:
"The very next line states "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto". This addresses a rule specifically for women in a separate section of the same line. It comes off as strange that it would be so specific here, yet not specific in the rule made immediately before it. If it was a rule against women doing it with women, then it would likely say something along the lines of "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; Neither shall any woman sleep with a woman as with a man: it is detestable". However, it did not do so, which comes off as strange considering the formatting of the rule that comes immediately after it."

answer is in the following lines:
Leviticus 18:24,25 KJV
"Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants."

Counterargument 2:
If that were the case, then "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." the bolded part here would be separate. Even if they are not separate, then no matter how you twist this, the closest thing you are going to get to a rule about lesbians would be "You may not sleep with a man as you would with a woman, neither shall any woman sleep with a man as they would with a woman."

answer:-
That's craziness..Its very simple to understand that it was talking about men lying with men..Romans 1:26,27 is still in Holy Scripture.It gives account of both...lesbianism is not excluded..

Argument 3:
If it is not okay for two men to have a sexual relationship, then why would it be okay for two women to have a sexual relationship?! Just because the bible does not explicitly say it is unacceptable for two women to have a sexual relationship does not mean that it is okay!
Counterargument 3:
See Counterargument 1:. We can't assume that it is a sin if it does not explicitly say so. There is actually nothing here suggesting it is wrong to have a lesbian relationship, so there is no reason to act like it is.

answer:-
Here is the prob.
Leviticus 18:24,25 KJV
"Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants."
sinning always leads to consequences that are devastating!!
That is the problem,if its not then like Apostle Paul says 'lets all be merry after getting drunk and die tomorrow',because then Christ never came in flesh too..to redeem mankind from clutches of sin!
sinning always leads to disastrous endings,nobody can come to rescue then..

Argument 4:
Are you a lesbian? If so, then this whole topic is you twisting the Bible and manipulating to have your way! You are just making it mean something else to your own benefit! That is not good in the eyes of GOD.
Counterargument 4:
I am not lesbian. In fact, the thought of doing something like that personally grosses and creeps me out a bit (Although the thought of doing it with a man also grosses me out. I'm a virgin btw. I plan on staying that way for life.). That much is irrelevant regardless. As for what my motive is behind this topic, a few things. You are making lesbi---------
--------
-----
--------is understanding and has forgiven you for all of your sins that are much more vast than the one potential sin you pointed out.

Additionally, there is nothing logically incorrect about anything that I pointed out. It does not say it is a sin for women to sleep with women as they would with a man. That means there is nothing suggesting that it is a sin in the first place. Why would this"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." be worded this way, but the line "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto" that comes immediately afterwards be so specific and address women separately?

answer:-
you said you are not a lesbian,and you pray a lot.Who is your God?
And no,True Christians do not condemn others.Being a Christian who struggles a lot in life to keep my stand for God,i find it pretty hard to do.But in Faith,i know that if God has brought me this far He will lead me till i finish this earthly life and enter Eternity.True Christians do not condemn others,because they know that they themselves stand on Grace of God.
Its true that many addicted people are treated in a disgusting way by people in Church.But if God brought a new soul who was trying her/his way to Freedom and came to a Church led by God,no dog! will be able to stop them from being in the Presence of God.i urge you to ask people who are weak minded,if you have doubts also Get close to the Presence of God.When people from various walks of life come to Christ 'because of the oppression'-(mostly),and when they Repent God's Love flows through them making them change and taste God's Love and Forgiveness when society cast them out.
God shows no partiality!If you have seen people doing that which might include me too,then its not about people,its all about God.That's why i still go to Church!

Argument 5:
So according to you, it's perfectly fine to be lesbian! Great! Now society is one step closer to incest and pedophilia!
Counterargument 5:
No more so than heterosexual relationships. In fact, GOD specified against incest and pedophilia in the section regarding sexual immoralities. Do not -------------------
------------
as they are in need of Christianity the most. Do not say "How dare you call yourself Christian when X" because the same should be said to you.

answer:-
i totally agree with you there,but that doesn't mean that somebody can talk like being a pedophile is ok,go and do it!
With that said,i have been trying to get this thing about judging others to many of the thick heads here..The moment i ask them about their testimonies as they condemn,they hide behind shells!!
i totally agree with you on that,you said it...

Yes,i correct myself and am no better than anyone else,but somehow plead to God that i may obtain Eternity in Heaven.i have a lot to correct myself than point finger,but in Christ i can exhort another to come to Grace of God than carry the burden by themselves so that i can overcome everything by the Grace of God in long run.i urge you also with Love of God to do so...


The other part:

Romans 1:18
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as ------
-----
------
------ as with womankind: it is abomination." convinced me that perhaps it is not actually a sin. It doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere else in the Bible as far as I know, unless i'm wrong? It appears as though it isn't explicitely or clearly stated anywhere in the Bible that lesbian relationships are wrong.

answer:-
you mention here that God is not speaking there and when we look at today's world its really confusing who speak in spirit of God and who is not.
Its easy to understand,when a man of God speaks,explained things that will be established.So if its not in the Spirit of God it will not stand in time.
When you think Apostle Paul don't stand qualified,who died for Christ's Testimony...i don't think you are a Christian.God speaks through His men/women.Don't be amazed,because then you shouldn't quote from OT to justify..because its mostly the Prophets of God that spoke then..you are falling in your own words there

What do you think?

i think i got a lot to correct in me than judge others and lot of people to share the Gospel of Christ and bring them to Eternal Hope of Christ..and somehow obtain God's Mercies to enter Heaven.There all my worries will end when i see Him finally face to face.i was given a second chance to Live by God when i tried to end it all.i saw and experienced the Spirit of God lifting me up from death.This is what i feel about it-where i condemned myself to death thinking am a looser as a successful Christian,God Forgave me to fight another day to make my way as overcomer in course of time.i would not recommend anyone to end life,because chances of what i experienced needn't be a rule always.By the Grace of God am alive today and i am testifying this to you.God changed my life and taught me to Love others like He Loves me unconditionally.Its not easy,but tolerance is an added gift,so is endurance once you really start walking with Jesus.

So in total,placing myself also in the examining area i say that God can make a difference in our lives be it whatever the addiction.Love of God is so powerful to lift us up from underneath us and makes us clean and in time Strengthen us to become overcomers to run into Glory of God in latter.
Love changes everything,because Love comes from God..and God is Love!

i am not saying this to win argument,but don't become sympathetic towards devil or his ways.The slow victories that we might get will be blocked or more delayed if you go behind things that are not connected with you(you said already you are not a lesbian).

abominable sins leads to this,which includes lesbianim:-
"Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants."

we are in Grace Period,so if in bondage by Grace of God we can overcome when we get more and more close to Jesus.Living in Humility and correcting oneself,exhorting one another through compassion and Prayer is the only way.Rest is all self pride!!

God Bless

 

[Kawaii]

You are not going to get anywhere with this argument.
The Bible is the inerrant word of God, christians believe that every word is inspired so it is same as if GOD said all of it even if in the text it is Paul's words. Otherwise you could disregard everything not preceded by "the Lord says..." or "and Jesus said..."

A couple of thoughts here:
The theme throughout the bible heavily favors procreation as the "natural" way of things. Any sexual act not leading to procreation was seen as sin. Lesbianism obviously does not naturally lead to procreation.

Also the bible was mainly male-centered as was the culture at the time of writing so lesbianism while being a sin would not be as strongly expressed due to its insignificance compared to male homosexuality.

"Also the bible was mainly male-centered as was the culture at the time of writing" doesn't mix well with "The Bible is the inerrant word of God".

2. GOD did not mention it in the list of sexual immoralities.

This is the thing I wonder about most. It was even GOD speaking in this case, so the absence of a rule against lesbians is suspicious. GOD would not fail to include it if it was intended.