We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.

[DavidLOVESsnow]

So this is the argument I have seen on here a couple of times and it lacks logic. Let me put the basic understanding people have told me :

1. We are not saved by works, but through grace only. No matter what works you do, they do not allow you to or enter into Heaven.
2. Only through faith in Jesus can you enter Heaven.

That is the basic understanding I have seen throughout these forums and debates I have been in with people. I have some spare time now as I prepare for my class today but it won't be too much so I may take time to respond. Regardless, the main points above are the foundation of this teaching. There are more points to this teaching in Calvinism, but I don't think people here are on that boat so I'll only address that when it's necessary (and I aready have a file saved on my computer with my debate topics on Calvinism so it wont take me long to respond).

So my first point is the warning I have to people. Read Galatians 1:6-9. It warns of the dangers of teaching a false doctrine. Also to prepare yourself, read Psalm 12:6-7. You should keep these verses in mind as I go through the problems of this teaching.

Faith Alone - First off, I shall define faith :
"1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." (faith - definition of faith by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

What this means is that, faith is the belief in something. So you having faith in Jesus means you believe he exists. This can not constitute for the sound reason you enter into Heaven. You may ask, well why not? Well a few reasons I will list:

1. You can have faith Jesus exists and yet still commit Sodomy, Fornication, etc. These things will send you to hell 1. Corinthians 6:12
2. You can have faith Jesus exists and still purposely go against him. That is what satanists do. They believe in God and Jesus but purposely go against him.

Now I will expand on the above topic of faith later on, but I need to create a similar small outline of Grace.
Grace - Firstoff, I shall define Grace:
"3. goodwill or favour" (grace - definition of grace by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.). Now if you go to the web link, you will see there are many, many definitions of grace. However, I am picking this one because it seems to be the more accurate definition on the topic. If you think there is a better definition I would gladly accept it, but for the moment this will suffice (regardless of the definition, my logically statements will prove my point anyways so don't think the 1 definition makes a big difference). Now it is true, that the gift to go to Heaven is available. But that does not mean that it doesn't come with expectations. There is a misconception that Grace = free gift to Heaven. Let me outline some problems with this:

1. 1. Corinthians 6:12 as I stated above, it applies here too. You can always decide to sin, does that mean you still get to go to Heaven?
2. If getting into Heaven was a free gift, then why did God make the commandments? He obviously made rules for you to follow in order to get into Heaven, therefore you need to follow the law to enter Heaven.

Now to put this together. I would like everyone to read Matthew 25:31-46. If you read that part of the Gospels of Christ, a few things become obvious:

1. The "goats" had faith in Jesus. They prophesied in his name, they cast out demons in his name, etc. The fact that they casted out demons meant they were real Christians (Mark 16:16-18) and therefore were true Christians. However, they did not visit the man in prison, they didn't feed the man who was hungered, etc. They did not do any works that was listed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.
2. If Good works do not get you into Heaven, then does that mean Bad works do not get you into hell? What my point is, is that if by grace and faith alone you enter Heaven, then wouldn't murderers, theives, adulterers, etc. enter Heaven too because they have grace and faith, and works do not allow you to enter Heaven? Do you see the illogical perspective that is? If Good works do not send you to Heaven, then Bad works cant send you to hell. Therefore, if the whole logic of only through grace/faith we get to Heaven is true, then the commandments wouldnt exist, neither would 1. Corinthians 6:12 exist. The whole saved through grace and faith alone completely disagrees with what is in the Bible itself.
3. Why does the book of life exist then? If works do not get you into Heaven, then why would a book exist SPECIFICALLY to write down what good works and bad works you do? Read about the book of life here, and there are many place sit is referred to in the Bible(Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15).

In Conclusion, the whole argument that through grace and faith alone we are saved is false doctrine. It goes against what Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46, it goes against 1. Corinthians 6:12, it goes against logic, it goes against the whole existence of the Book of Life (Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15), and it goes against God's Law.

If you read the Bible it will become apparent, or if you even read what I wrote that grace/faith alone sends you to Heaven. Jesus himself said in Matthew 25:31-46 how Christians who were pure Christians (refer to Mark 16:16-18 for proof) who casted out demons who went to hell for not doing good works. If Works were not important, these bible quotes wouldn't exist and Jesus wouldn't tell you what he says in Matthew 5:40-42 either if works did not matter at all. Also the book of life would NOT EXIST if works did not matter. Reiterating that because a lot of people seem to forget about it, THE BOOK OF LIFE WOULD NOT EXIST IF WORKS DID NOT MATTER.

Now I know people will not read all of this, but please take the time to read this whole thing, read the Bible quotes, and realize the problems in this false teaching. For Galatians 1:6-9 says [and im paraphrasing] that whoever teaches these false doctrines will be accursed.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

To add i'd like to say I know what Ephesians 2:8 says, but I think people misunderstand what it means.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Going to re-title this as I realize I might have given a wrong impression on my stance

 

[Tintin]

To have faith means to put trust in someone or something. Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith. Also, why follow John Calvin when you can follow Jesus? Have you considered Calvin may be the one in error?

 

[Skinski7]

Faith is a work and can be equated with faithfulness.

It is impossible to be in a state of disobedience to God and have faith in God at the same time. The children of Israel in the wilderness believed in God but rebelled and were counted as being in unbelief.

Believers are doers of the will of God. Not works of the law but the works of faith which is walking in the light as He is in the light.

James taught that faith without works is dead because faith is a principle which is active as opposed to being passive.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

No idea how to re-title this, guess I'll just have to argue a lot.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Faith is a work and can be equated with faithfulness.

It is impossible to be in a state of disobedience to God and have faith in God at the same time. The children of Israel in the wilderness believed in God but rebelled and were counted as being in unbelief.

Believers are doers of the will of God. Not works of the law but the works of faith which is walking in the light as He is in the light.

James taught that faith without works is dead because faith is a principle which is active as opposed to being passive.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Your quote does not correlate with what you are saying... But I understand your perspective. However my main point is that the teachings of the whole "grace and faith" alone are dangerous. It becomes a catalist to sin when just thinking by Grace you are saved so you dont have to do anything.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

To have faith means to put trust in someone or something. Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith. Also, why follow John Calvin when you can follow Jesus? Have you considered Calvin may be the one in error?

I never said anything positive about Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist.

And you must not have read everything, because i can have faith in Jesus and yet commit Sodomy. Does that mean I will enter Heaven? read 1. Corinthians 6:12

Also, satanists have faith that Jesus exists, do they get grace? ... see the flaw in your logic?

 

[Tintin]

I never said anything positive about Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist.

And you must not have read everything, because i can have faith in Jesus and yet commit Sodomy. Does that mean I will enter Heaven? read 1. Corinthians 6:12

Also, satanists have faith that Jesus exists, do they get grace? ... see the flaw in your logic?

I think you're the one with the flawed logic. Satanists do not have faith in Christ Jesus. Nor does a "Christian" who commits sodomy. One must be repentant of their sins and receive God's grace through faith. Grace isn't a license to sin. As for confusing you with Calvinists, I apologise. That was my misunderstanding.

 

[Spokenpassage]

I never said anything positive about Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist.

And you must not have read everything, because i can have faith in Jesus and yet commit Sodomy. Does that mean I will enter Heaven? read 1. Corinthians 6:12

Also, satanists have faith that Jesus exists, do they get grace? ... see the flaw in your logic?

No, demons and Satanists may believe there is a Jesus, but faith is trusting in Jesus. Faith isn't just mere belief. It's completely relying and trusting on who Jesus is and what Jesus did. James makes it clear that faith produces actions. But the actions don't produce grace. By grace alone through faith we are saved.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

I think you're the one with the flawed logic. Satanists do not have faith in Christ Jesus. Nor does a "Christian" who commits sodomy. One must be repentant of their sins and receive God's grace through faith. Grace isn't a license to sin. As for confusing you with Calvinists, I apologise. That was my misunderstanding.

Look up the definition of faith. Faith is to believe in something. We do not see Jesus everyday in physical form therefore we choose to have faith he exists. Therefore, satanists have faith in God and Jesus as well. They just choose to worship satan, unfortunately. So yes, they do have faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So this is the argument I have seen on here a couple of times and it lacks logic. Let me put the basic understanding people have told me :

1. We are not saved by works, but through grace only. No matter what works you do, they do not allow you to or enter into Heaven.
2. Only through faith in Jesus can you enter Heaven.

That is the basic understanding I have seen throughout these forums and debates I have been in with people. I have some spare time now as I prepare for my class today but it won't be too much so I may take time to respond. Regardless, the main points above are the foundation of this teaching. There are more points to this teaching in Calvinism, but I don't think people here are on that boat so I'll only address that when it's necessary (and I aready have a file saved on my computer with my debate topics on Calvinism so it wont take me long to respond).

So my first point is the warning I have to people. Read Galatians 1:6-9. It warns of the dangers of teaching a false doctrine. Also to prepare yourself, read Psalm 12:6-7. You should keep these verses in mind as I go through the problems of this teaching.

Faith Alone - First off, I shall define faith :
"1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." (faith - definition of faith by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

What this means is that, faith is the belief in something. So you having faith in Jesus means you believe he exists.

here is your first problem. You do not go to a free online dictionary to get the meaning of a greek word. Your dictionary interpretation is off base. That is the definition of the word belief, but faith is MUCH MUCH deeper than this.

The greek word is a word which has to its meaning "an assurance that what the one we are trusting in will complete what he promised. A complete trust in someone or something,

It is more than just mere belief. We see this in james, where he states belief is not enough, for even demons believe. Yet many claim to have faith, but have no work which is a natural byproduct of faith, thus their faith is dead (non existent)

This can not constitute for the sound reason you enter into Heaven. You may ask, well why not? Well a few reasons I will list:

1. You can have faith Jesus exists and yet still commit Sodomy, Fornication, etc. These things will send you to hell 1. Corinthians 6:12
2. You can have faith Jesus exists and still purposely go against him. That is what satanists do. They believe in God and Jesus but purposely go against him.

And here are some other Problems. Any sin will result in hell if not redeemed. Not just these two. Your teaching law not grace. I should have known when you said you could prove something, you had no proof. just more of the same legalism from satan himself. Not to mention, A person who has true faith, Not just mere belief, WILL show a changed life.

Now I will expand on the above topic of faith later on, but I need to create a similar small outline of Grace.
Grace - Firstoff, I shall define Grace:
"3. goodwill or favour" (grace - definition of grace by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.). Now if you go to the web link, you will see there are many, many definitions of grace. However, I am picking this one because it seems to be the more accurate definition on the topic. If you think there is a better definition I would gladly accept it, but for the moment this will suffice (regardless of the definition, my logically statements will prove my point anyways so don't think the 1 definition makes a big difference). Now it is true, that the gift to go to Heaven is available. But that does not mean that it doesn't come with expectations. There is a misconception that Grace = free gift to Heaven. Let me outline some problems with this:

There you go again with the english defenition from a free source. Do you not understand that scripture was written in greek not english?

The word comes from the Greek word Charis, from where we get the English word Charity. It is a free, undeserved (not earned is a better term) gift. Given from someone. Also undeserved favor would be a proper defenition.

Dude if you can;t get these things right, Why would we think you would get the rest. lets get the basics down first before we try to convince people of other things.

PS. The galations passage you posted was a warning against adding WORKS to the law of Grace for salvation. the very passage you used was written to people like you.

Prove something? If your going to prove something, at least use the right resources.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

No, demons and Satanists may believe there is a Jesus, but faith is trusting in Jesus. Faith isn't just mere belief. It's completely relying and trusting on who Jesus is and what Jesus did. James makes it clear that faith produces actions. But the actions don't produce grace. By grace alone through faith we are saved.

Faith is trusting in Jesus how? What definition of faith is that... can you show me the Bible quote please? Because the dictionary definition of faith, and the common understanding, is that faith is a belief in something. Some people have faith in buddah, or some other religion but we have faith in Jesus because we know he is real. Therefore, satanist do have faith in Jesus.

demons do not have faith in Jesus because they can be 100% sure he exists because they see him. I am 100% sure he exists but because I dont see him physically my assumptions are still relied on faith that he exists. Understand now?

 

[john832]

To have faith means to put trust in someone or something. Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith. Also, why follow John Calvin when you can follow Jesus? Have you considered Calvin may be the one in error?

So, if we follow Christ and we read this...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

How about explaining this seeming dichotomy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look up the definition of faith. Faith is to believe in something. We do not see Jesus everyday in physical form therefore we choose to have faith he exists. Therefore, satanists have faith in God and Jesus as well. They just choose to worship satan, unfortunately. So yes, they do have faith.

No, You look up the definition of the greek word. Not the english word.

There is a HUGE difference between mere belief in something ( Ie Jesus Exists) and a full assurance that someone will fulfill his promise. HUGE..

 

[john832]

I think you're the one with the flawed logic. Satanists do not have faith in Christ Jesus. Nor does a "Christian" who commits sodomy. One must be repentant of their sins and receive God's grace through faith. Grace isn't a license to sin. As for confusing you with Calvinists, I apologise. That was my misunderstanding.

Ah, but one who has repented and put their faith in Christ still sins. Paul devoted a fair section of Rom 7 to this...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If all is accomplished by Christ and we do nothing, why was Paul even concerned about his short comings? Why did he make this dramatic statement?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

here is your first problem. You do not go to a free online dictionary to get the meaning of a greek word. Your dictionary interpretation is off base. That is the definition of the word belief, but faith is MUCH MUCH deeper than this.

The greek word is a word which has to its meaning "an assurance that what the one we are trusting in will complete what he promised. A complete trust in someone or something,

It is more than just mere belief. We see this in james, where he states belief is not enough, for even demons believe. Yet many claim to have faith, but have no work which is a natural byproduct of faith, thus their faith is dead (non existent)

[/LIST]
And here are some other Problems. Any sin will result in hell if not redeemed. Not just these two. Your teaching law not grace. I should have known when you said you could prove something, you had no proof. just more of the same legalism from satan himself. Not to mention, A person who has true faith, Not just mere belief, WILL show a changed life.




There you go again with the english defenition from a free source. Do you not understand that scripture was written in greek not english?

The word comes from the Greek word Charis, from where we get the English word Charity. It is a free, undeserved (not earned is a better term) gift. Given from someone. Also undeserved favor would be a proper defenition.

Dude if you can;t get these things right, Why would we think you would get the rest. lets get the basics down first before we try to convince people of other things.

PS. The galations passage you posted was a warning against adding WORKS to the law of Grace for salvation. the very passage you used was written to people like you.

Prove something? If your going to prove something, at least use the right resources.

First I would like to say I did prove my point, and I will show you how by critiquing your responce.

Im going to work backwards up because its easier. Accursed = damnation. It warns about if someone teaches you a false doctrine, whether it be an angel or human, to not believe it because they will be accursed for doing it. Its very easily explained in english, read the verse.

The definition you gave for grace is exactly the same thing I used.

Exactly sin = hell, but the whole teachings of this is saying that regardless you will go to Heaven. Repentance wouldn't be necessary if Grace and Faith alone got you into heaven. Regardless, like I said, if you do Bad works (sins) you go to hell, so then Good works will help you get into Heaven. Why does the book of life exist if that does not count?


First I'd like to point the irony out of you saying that I have no proof, yet don't cite a Bible quote for your comment. Secondly, I know that quote so it isn't necessary, just pointing out the hypocrisy. As for true faith, Saul had true faith in God. He was annointed by God and had the spirit of God within him yet he fell and did bad deeds. Therefore, even though he had faith in God and did what God wanted, he turned away and did not what God wanted. Want a NT example? I forget the story but I can find it if you are willing to wait while I watch a 20 minute pastor session or I can link you the video where he is debunking Calvinism.


Faith exactly is what you said, and what I said. To a degree I can see the difference from what you mean. However, like I said there are times when many men trusted in God but still failed because of their own faults. This means that it takes more then just faith or grace to enter Heaven. Of course it is necessary, but it takes more thenthat. The people in Matthew 25:31-46 had faith in God, yet they didnt do the deeds Jesus required. Matthew 25:31-46 debunks your whole claim, sorry.

I assume that the scholars who studied the languages for a living back in 1600 had a much better understanding and chose words correctly to make the proper meaning, so I used an english translation. Im sorry, I do not know the greek or have a greek translator/dictionary.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Ah, but one who has repented and put their faith in Christ still sins. Paul devoted a fair section of Rom 7 to this...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If all is accomplished by Christ and we do nothing, why was Paul even concerned about his short comings? Why did he make this dramatic statement?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Exactly what I am saying lol, you are agreeing with me then why are you quoting me? XD

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, but one who has repented and put their faith in Christ still sins. Paul devoted a fair section of Rom 7 to this...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If all is accomplished by Christ and we do nothing, why was Paul even concerned about his short comings? Why did he make this dramatic statement?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

because paul understood a basic fact.

God does not save us from ourselves. he saves us from eternal condemnation. The flesh is left behind, we still (through the flesh) sin everytime we do ANYTHING which is based on self, and not God (the true defenition of sin).

How did paul finish that statement?

[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

what did he thank God for? that he was a wretched man?? NO!, That he was delivered (saved0 from death. as he said in another passage

even though the body is DEAD because of sin, the spirit is ALIVE because of righteousness (gods not ours)

 

[Spokenpassage]

Faith is trusting in Jesus how? What definition of faith is that... can you show me the Bible quote please? Because the dictionary definition of faith, and the common understanding, is that faith is a belief in something. Some people have faith in buddah, or some other religion but we have faith in Jesus because we know he is real. Therefore, satanist do have faith in Jesus.

demons do not have faith in Jesus because they can be 100% sure he exists because they see him. I am 100% sure he exists but because I dont see him physically my assumptions are still relied on faith that he exists. Understand now?

You just contradicted yourself. John 3:16 is a good start.