We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.

[ChosenbyHim]

As for your opinion on Matthew 25 I disagree with you. It is your perspective that it is said in that way, and I quoted Mark 16:16-18 to show they were real Christians. If you can show with Bible quotes that you are right, I will believe you like your quotes on the first point. However, this comment is just your opinion and you have not showed any proof as of yet.

David, if you read all of Matthew 25, from start to finish it is pure works. There is not one mention of faith anywhere in that chapter. Why? Because it is pointed at both Israel and Gentile Nations in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Think about it; according to Matthew 25:31-46, what is the requirement for one to enter the Millennial Kingdom?

It is good works toward Christ's brethren (the Jews). There is no getting around that. Just read the whole passage in its context. After you read Matthew 25, then read Hebrews 3, 6 and 10. Since Hebrews is another book in the Bible which is Doctrinally pointed at Jews in the tribulation period. Then once you read those three chapters of Hebrews, then read the whole book of James. You'll notice they all teach endurence for salvation.

Hebrews 3 for example teaches that for a Jew to become a partaker of Christ, he must hold fast his confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end (Heb. 3:6, 14).

(Faith and works).

James 2 lines up with Hebrews 3 and with the Gospel of endurance to the end found in both Matthew 24:13 and Revelation 14:6.

You have to compare Scripture with Scripture and make sure that you are rightly dividing the word of truth (1 Cor. 2:13 & 2 Tim. 2:15).

Once again on Matthew 25 I disagree with you. If you can post scripture that explains your point I would happily admit to my wrong perspective. As for now, I disagree with you.

Again, read Matthew 25 in context. Then read Hebrews 3, 6 and 10. As well as the book of James.

They all teach works along with faith for salvation. Again, compare Scripture with Scripture.

As for my point on the book of life, etc. I disagree with you. However, let me reiterate my point better because I did not post it correctly or in a wording that would be understood properly. What I am saying is that you can't just have faith in Jesus, believe he died for our sins, and then go and kill people.

Well there is obviosuly a difference between head knowledge and genuine belief in the heart.

You see, if one says he believes in Jesus but does not show the fruit of a truly changed person (i.e. a new creature), then most likely that person is a false convert. That is why REPENTANCE is so crucial. Faith and Repentance go hand in hand.

For a person to be saved, they must come to God as a sinner. They cannot come to God in their pride and in their self righteousness.

One of the reasons why many people don't truly ever get saved is because they know salvation will require a changed life. They understand that if they accept and receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour, then that means no more clubbing, no more stealing, no more debauchery, no more revellings, etc.

Repentance is turning from sin. And repentance is required for genuine salvation.

You show your love and obedience for God by obeying his laws and doing good works (the good works part is in James I believe somewhere, I'd have to take time and find it I am not 100% where it is in the NT).

Well yes, we do show our love for God by obeying Him and by doing what He commands us to do.

But the good works we do for Him in this dispensation is in no way connected with our salvation (See Eph. 2:8-10 and Rom. 4:4-7).

On the part on Mark 16:16-18 was well as Matthew 25:31-46, I disagree with you again. There are many stories in the Bible of people who had accepted God, but then failed. Let me cite a few aand if you want I can go grab the Bible verses for ya:
- Saul. He had the spirit of God in him yet failed and went against God

Saul did not have eternal security. In fact, there was no eternal security in the Old Testament.

When one got saved in the Old Testament, they were saved by having faith in what God said and by keeping the Law.

And when an Old Testament saint was indwelt by the Holy Spirit; he still had to maintain good works to stay saved, since his soul was still connected to his flesh. Also, Old Testament Saints were not sealed by the Holy Spirit like New Testament born again Christians are today in the Church Age.

- A person in the NT who was with one of the apostles. I forget the example I need to re-watch a video of a pastor who debunks Calvinism to find it. It'll take me about 20 mins but I can get it. Basically a guy was with one of the apostles who was with Christ but fell.

Judas Iscariot was never saved. Judas Iscariot was a devil.


John 6:70-71

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? [SUP]71 [/SUP]He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Also what you are talking about Christians can never lose their Salvation is Calvinistic doctrine. If people were once saved always saved, then that means they have no free will. There are people in the Bible who I can cite who have fallen who were believers in Christ and correlated with Mark 16:16-18's definition of true Christians so to speak. Therefore, Once you are a saved always saved is wrong. I can re-post my entire post on another thread about this, but thats if you want to debate it. OR I can post the video of the pastor who completely debunks it. It's your choice.

No, Eternal Security is not a calvinistic doctrine. It is a Bible Doctrine. When a person gets genuinely saved, he is forever saved. He is eternally secure.

Eternal Security is taught in the Bible for born again Christians in the Church Age. A Christian could never lose salvation because they are indewlt by Jesus Christ (Col. 1:27), Sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 & 4:30). And is a member of Christ's body, he is flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone (Eph. 5:30).

Exactly. I agree with you. Just because I fast all the time and someone else doesnt, doesnt mean Im any better then him (im referring to the parable Jesus spoke of). What I am saying though, is if you don't do any works and think you're going to Heaven its not true.

Again David, Salvation for the Church Age today is by grace through faith without any works:



Ephesians 2:8-10

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Romans 4:4-8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [SUP]7 [/SUP]saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Christ's blood atonement was enough at Calvary to get you, I and everyone else into Heaven.

No works of ours are needed.

Im not saying you need say 100 pounds worth of works to get into Heaven. What Im saying is, is that if there is the opportunity to help someone and do God's work and you never do it, then you aren't being Christian. I forget the Bible quote, but I can find it [referring to the one earlier] where it basically says that if you are a Christian you will do good deeds not to save yourself but because you love God and love people. How can you love your neighbours and then just do nothing to help them? Or say know people are going to go to hell for sodomy yet never warn them? See my point?

Well again David, I do understand that a Christian should do good works to glorify the Father and Son.

A born again Christian should want to honour his Heavenly Father and serve Him with his whole being, but again, you have to keep in mind and understand that our good works have no part in us keeping our salvation. It is God who keeps us (Rom. 8:29-39 & 1 Pet. 1:5)

 

[ji]

So this is the argument I have seen on here a couple of times and it lacks logic. Let me put the basic understanding people have told me :

1. We are not saved by works, but through grace only. No matter what works you do, they do not allow you to or enter into Heaven.
2. Only through faith in Jesus can you enter Heaven.

That is the basic understanding I have seen throughout these forums and debates I have been in with people. I have some spare time now as I prepare for my class today but it won't be too much so I may take time to respond. Regardless, the main points above are the foundation of this teaching. There are more points to this teaching in Calvinism, but I don't think people here are on that boat so I'll only address that when it's necessary (and I aready have a file saved on my computer with my debate topics on Calvinism so it wont take me long to respond).

So my first point is the warning I have to people. Read Galatians 1:6-9. It warns of the dangers of teaching a false doctrine. Also to prepare yourself, read Psalm 12:6-7. You should keep these verses in mind as I go through the problems of this teaching.

Faith Alone - First off, I shall define faith :
"1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." (faith - definition of faith by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

What this means is that, faith is the belief in something. So you having faith in Jesus means you believe he exists. This can not constitute for the sound reason you enter into Heaven. You may ask, well why not? Well a few reasons I will list:

1. You can have faith Jesus exists and yet still commit Sodomy, Fornication, etc. These things will send you to hell 1. Corinthians 6:12
2. You can have faith Jesus exists and still purposely go against him. That is what satanists do. They believe in God and Jesus but purposely go against him.

Now I will expand on the above topic of faith later on, but I need to create a similar small outline of Grace.
Grace - Firstoff, I shall define Grace:
"3. goodwill or favour" (grace - definition of grace by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.). Now if you go to the web link, you will see there are many, many definitions of grace. However, I am picking this one because it seems to be the more accurate definition on the topic. If you think there is a better definition I would gladly accept it, but for the moment this will suffice (regardless of the definition, my logically statements will prove my point anyways so don't think the 1 definition makes a big difference). Now it is true, that the gift to go to Heaven is available. But that does not mean that it doesn't come with expectations. There is a misconception that Grace = free gift to Heaven. Let me outline some problems with this:

1. 1. Corinthians 6:12 as I stated above, it applies here too. You can always decide to sin, does that mean you still get to go to Heaven?
2. If getting into Heaven was a free gift, then why did God make the commandments? He obviously made rules for you to follow in order to get into Heaven, therefore you need to follow the law to enter Heaven.

Now to put this together. I would like everyone to read Matthew 25:31-46. If you read that part of the Gospels of Christ, a few things become obvious:

1. The "goats" had faith in Jesus. They prophesied in his name, they cast out demons in his name, etc. The fact that they casted out demons meant they were real Christians (Mark 16:16-18) and therefore were true Christians. However, they did not visit the man in prison, they didn't feed the man who was hungered, etc. They did not do any works that was listed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.
2. If Good works do not get you into Heaven, then does that mean Bad works do not get you into hell? What my point is, is that if by grace and faith alone you enter Heaven, then wouldn't murderers, theives, adulterers, etc. enter Heaven too because they have grace and faith, and works do not allow you to enter Heaven? Do you see the illogical perspective that is? If Good works do not send you to Heaven, then Bad works cant send you to hell. Therefore, if the whole logic of only through grace/faith we get to Heaven is true, then the commandments wouldnt exist, neither would 1. Corinthians 6:12 exist. The whole saved through grace and faith alone completely disagrees with what is in the Bible itself.
3. Why does the book of life exist then? If works do not get you into Heaven, then why would a book exist SPECIFICALLY to write down what good works and bad works you do? Read about the book of life here, and there are many place sit is referred to in the Bible(Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15).

In Conclusion, the whole argument that through grace and faith alone we are saved is false doctrine. It goes against what Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46, it goes against 1. Corinthians 6:12, it goes against logic, it goes against the whole existence of the Book of Life (Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1; Luke 10:10; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15), and it goes against God's Law.

If you read the Bible it will become apparent, or if you even read what I wrote that grace/faith alone sends you to Heaven. Jesus himself said in Matthew 25:31-46 how Christians who were pure Christians (refer to Mark 16:16-18 for proof) who casted out demons who went to hell for not doing good works. If Works were not important, these bible quotes wouldn't exist and Jesus wouldn't tell you what he says in Matthew 5:40-42 either if works did not matter at all. Also the book of life would NOT EXIST if works did not matter. Reiterating that because a lot of people seem to forget about it, THE BOOK OF LIFE WOULD NOT EXIST IF WORKS DID NOT MATTER.

Now I know people will not read all of this, but please take the time to read this whole thing, read the Bible quotes, and realize the problems in this false teaching. For Galatians 1:6-9 says [and im paraphrasing] that whoever teaches these false doctrines will be accursed.

It's all about your where your heart is....
Otherwise it won't in either way,still leading to hell...
All those who made it to Heaven Loved God...and it will be so..

 

[Simona25]

Your trying to work out your own stamp. Which again, will be rejected.

What do you know about what I try to do and what I struggle about?
Of course that God will reject me and you will be present when that will happen and tell me "See? I told you so!".

And again proves you are trying to work to earn salvation, even though you continue to deny it.

I try not to turn my back on God's love and respond with love to his love. I want God to save me from myself, but, He can not do that if I don't want that. He doesn't force me. I must make myself small (humble myself) if I want God to come into my heart.

I nogtice just-me liked this.

and he wonders why people thinks he believes in a works based salvation. WOW

I have noticed lots of rethorical wonders in your comments (in general). When it's not "wow", it's the "eyes rolling" etc. Have fun.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you know about what I try to do and what I struggle about?
Of course that God will reject me and you will be present when that will happen and tell me "See? I told you so!".

I know what your church teaches.

And no, If I was with you, and you continued on the way your church is leading you. I will be in tears because I lost you. I would rather be wrong than to watch you go away for all eternity.

I try not to turn my back on God's love and respond with love to his love. I want God to save me from myself, but, He can not do that if I don't want that. He doesn't force me. I must make myself small (humble myself) if I want God to come into my heart.

He is offering to come into your heart today forever. To forgive you of ALL sin, and to make you his child. What are you waiting for?

I have noticed lots of rethorical wonders in your comments (in general). When it's not "wow", it's the "eyes rolling" etc. Have fun.

It does get pretty amazing at some of the comments, beliefs and thoughts in here. maybe I do not know what else to do.