Dr. Charles Stanley

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VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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When taken into context, you find Abraham was justified by obedient works, just like us :

 James 2:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Abraham obeyed God.
JAMES DID NOT CONTRADICT PAUL, If you WERE SAVED, the evidence that your salvation was REAL, will come out in your works.

James 2:21
Abraham was justified by works in offering up Isaac his son on the altar. In order to see this truth in its proper perspective, turn to Genesis 15:6. We read that Abraham believed in the Lord, and He counted it to him for righteousness. Here Abraham was justified by believing; in other words, he was justified by faith. It is not till we come to Genesis 22 that we find Abraham offering up his son. It is then that he was justified by works. As soon as Abraham believed in the Lord, he was justified in the sight of God. But then, seven chapters later, God put Abraham's faith to the test. Abraham demonstrated that it was genuine faith by his willingness to offer up Isaac. His obedience showed that his faith was not merely a head belief, but a heart commitment.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.
James 2:21
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? This question is often held to be directly opposed to Paul’s statement that Abraham’s faith, not his works, caused God to declare him righteous (Rom. 4:1-5). Paul, however, was arguing for the priority of faith. James argued for the proof of faith. Paul declared that Abraham had faith, and was therefore justified, or declared righteous (Gen. 15:6), prior to circumcision (Gen. 17:11; cf. Rom. 4:9). James explained that Abraham’s faith was evident in his practice of Isaac’s sacrifice (Gen. 22:12), and he was therefore justified, or declared righteous. Works serve as the barometer of justification, while faith is the basis for justification.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
James 2:21
justified by works. This does not contradict Paul’s clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Rom. 3:20; 4:1-25; Gal. 3:6, 11). For several reasons, James cannot mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own good works: (1) James has already emphasized that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17, 18); (2) in the middle of this disputed passage (v. 23), James quoted Genesis 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith (see notes on Rom. 1:17; 3:24; 4:1-25); and (3) the work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Gen. 22:9, 12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Gen. 12:1-7; 15:6). Instead, Abraham’s offering of Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of a person’s claim to salvation. James’s teaching perfectly complements Paul’s writings; salvation is determined by faith alone (Eph. 2:8, 9) and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God’s will alone (Eph. 2:10).
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.
 

VCO

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Why do some people call being baptized works? I call being baptized obeying a command. Works shows God what we have done in his name, without works how can God judge us, what would he use to judge us if it wasn't our works. Doesn't God say you will know a person by his works, whether they be good or bad. So what's the big deal with the word works? The word works seems to divide people which makes no sense to me at all.
Galatians 2:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
 

Timeline

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Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!


Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP]not from works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 3:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Galatians 2:16 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:3 (ASV)
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

WORKS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Good Works are the Bi-product of genuine saving faith, NOT the means to get saved. Salvation comes first, THEN we walk in good works.

John 6:47 (HCSB)
[SUP]47 [/SUP]“I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life.
I feel like this may go along with what you are saying:
Matt 20:1-16 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. [SUP]2 [/SUP]When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ [SUP]7 [/SUP]They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ [SUP]9 [/SUP]When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, [SUP]12 [/SUP]saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? [SUP]14 [/SUP]Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ [SUP]16 [/SUP]So the last shall be first, and the first last.”

We work because God has extended grace to us (and in return must extend grace to others). Yes, we work but not to be saved, but because we were saved. And God will reward the one who does a little work in the same way that he rewards the one who does a little work. And if He feels that someone needs extra reward that is between God and the one who receives whatever God considers just.


 

Timeline

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[SUP]



1 Corinthians 9:15-18
15
[/SUP]But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Work because you are grateful not because you are required to.
 
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one of a couple i listen to much these days is Charles Stanley, seems like he always has something decent to share, and i've never had to say. huh?
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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I am not a baptist as Charles Stanley is, but he said a lot of things this morning that made so much sense and touched my heart as I was not able to attend services. Sometimes, messages come through when we need to hear them putting aside denominations.
I find gold nuggets in every believer and non believer, why? always something to learn if one relates everything they do to Father through Son Christ, we get taught and led, for that is where truth from error is separated and we still walk in love to whatever we might be aware of, wise as a serpent and yet harmless as a dove. Love from God to all, in and through us that is what I see God wants
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We can play the lexicon game :

Ephesians 2:9 (NKJV)
not of works, lest anyone should boast.

in Paul's writings εργα νομου, works demanded by and agreeing with the law (cf. Wieseler, commentary iib. d. Br. an d. Gal., p. 194ff): Romans 3:20,28; 9:32 Rec.; Galatians 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and simply εργα: Romans 4:2,6; 9:12 (11); Romans 9:32 G L T Tr WH; Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9 (see δικαιοω, 3 b.). J. H. Thayer, trans., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1889)

All of the above passages deal with the Jewish Law.

I see.

So we take a biased commentary.

No thanks. The greek interpretation trumps any biased commentary 100 fold.


I bet I could find many commentaries which would be opposed to that one you posted.

But then are we to listen to men, or God. Are we to listen to men, or place ourselves in the eph shoes and see how they would interpret it (by using the true defenition of the word)?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You gave a biblical, and smart reply. Well the Bible says in Acts 2.21 whosoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved. It's not talking about salvation from sins, but natural salvation. Salvation from sins is Mark 16.16 when Jesus said He that believes and is baptized will be saved. There is no contradiction in the word of God.

um. Acts 2: 21 is most certainly talking about salvation from sin. There is no other salvation.


especially when so many other passages agree with it.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus paid our price in full. That is a 16th century doctrine made up by Reformed Theologians and it is commonly called Penal Substitution.
I can't help but think that Jesus when confronted with this idea would say, "Get thee behind me Satan."

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

HOW IS THIS NOT PAID IN FULL?

Thank you Jesus.
People still want to add their own works. The flesh is as powerful today as it has always been. No one wishes to give complete control to God, it is against our nature, thats why so FEW will enter into the narrow gate.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Why do some people call being baptized works? I call being baptized obeying a command.
which is the defenition of the word work.

Works shows God what we have done in his name, without works how can God judge us, what would he use to judge us if it wasn't our works. Doesn't God say you will know a person by his works, whether they be good or bad. So what's the big deal with the word works? The word works seems to divide people which makes no sense to me at all.
No it is not the word which divide. It is adding a work to the gospel of grace which divides.

For it is a different gospel. and not one which will let anyone into heaven.
 

Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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JAMES DID NOT CONTRADICT PAUL, If you WERE SAVED, the evidence that your salvation was REAL, will come out in your works.
So you you believe what Charles Stanley says here?

[video=youtube;NrhFrQJritc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhFrQJritc[/video]
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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People still want to add their own works. The flesh is as powerful today as it has always been. No one wishes to give complete control to God, it is against our nature, thats why so FEW will enter into the narrow gate.

That is one of several reasons. The broad road has no unbelievers on it, as the parable of the gates is ONLY referring to those who THINK they are believers, compared to those who those who have willingly out of LOVE surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. So YES, Attempting to add anything to the free gift of GOD, which is SAVED BY GRACE ALONE, (totally unearned); certainly is ONE of the many reasons they fail to enter the Narrow Gate.

Some of the other reasons they fail to enter that Narrow Gate:

PRIDE.

Denial of HIS Deity.

Self-Styled Worship like Cain (I will worship God, MY WAY).

Thinking the Preaching of the Word is for profit like Balaam.

Attempting to improve on Worship of the True GOD by mixing in what is perceived to be the best ideas of paganism like Korah.

Focusing on FEELINGS instead of a personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST as LORD.

Making something other than the LORD Jesus Christ more important in their lives.

Having a wrong understanding of what GOD means by "BELIEVE".

Being Deceived by False Doctrines, False Gospels, and False Teachings.

Thinking that intellectual knowledge of who Jesus Christ is equates to Salvation (even the demons believe that much).

An unwillingness to OBEY HIM.

Following a counterfeit of Jesus Christ (and there are many).


AND ALL OF THOSE ON THAT BROAD ROAD will cry out "LORD, LORD!" And HE will say to them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"; referring to that inner personal LOVE relationship where we willingly submit to HIM as LORD, which means MASTER.
 

Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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I'm more in line with Greg Laurie on this

[video=youtube;V3elNE7mZXY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3elNE7mZXY[/video]
 

Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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That is one of several reasons. The broad road has no unbelievers on it, as the parable of the gates is ONLY referring to those who THINK they are believers, compared to those who those who have willingly out of LOVE surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. So YES, Attempting to add anything to the free gift of GOD, which is SAVED BY GRACE ALONE, (totally unearned); certainly is ONE of the many reasons they fail to enter the Narrow Gate.

Some of the other reasons they fail to enter that Narrow Gate:

PRIDE.

Denial of HIS Deity.

Self-Styled Worship like Cain (I will worship God, MY WAY).

Thinking the Preaching of the Word is for profit like Balaam.

Attempting to improve on Worship of the True GOD by mixing in what is perceived to be the best ideas of paganism like Korah.

Focusing on FEELINGS instead of a personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST as LORD.

Making something other than the LORD Jesus Christ more important in their lives.

Having a wrong understanding of what GOD means by "BELIEVE".

Being Deceived by False Doctrines, False Gospels, and False Teachings.

Thinking that intellectual knowledge of who Jesus Christ is equates to Salvation (even the demons believe that much).

An unwillingness to OBEY HIM.

Following a counterfeit of Jesus Christ (and there are many).


AND ALL OF THOSE ON THAT BROAD ROAD will cry out "LORD, LORD!" And HE will say to them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"; referring to that inner personal LOVE relationship where we willingly submit to HIM as LORD, which means MASTER.
I believe the narrow gate is Jesus Christ himself. These whom cried "Lord, Lord" really didn't have a relationship the Lord, but rather wanted to use the Lord for their own gain.

Can you please describe for me what you think self-style worship looks like? I don't think you can, but I'd like to know what you think anyway. I would think that true worship is an act to God that generates from our hearts in Love for God no matter what it looks like.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So you you believe what Charles Stanley says here? [video=youtube;NrhFrQJritc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhFrQJritc[/video]
yes I do.. please note keywords. "IF they were saved" "If they were born again"
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm more in line with Greg Laurie on this

[video=youtube;V3elNE7mZXY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3elNE7mZXY[/video]
i like this one also..
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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So you you believe what Charles Stanley says here?
><>t<><

Genuine SALVATION will always produce the desire and the ability to do good works.

Good Works will NEVER produce Salvation.

We were SAVED as a gift of GOD through faith that the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF PUT IN US, the very moment we first believed, which produces in us (IF IT WAS REAL) a deep conviction of sin and a willingness to surrender to Jesus Christ as LORD which means MASTER. That genuine Salvation (past tense) will become evident in our works. Hence "Work out your own salvation" LITERALLY MEANS "If you are saved, then ACT LIKE IT." That is all possible ONLY BECAUSE the HOLY SPIRIT at the moment of our Salvation brought our once DEAD to the Will of GOD human spirit, to an ETERNAL LIFE of being ALIVE to the Will of GOD. (BORN AGAIN)

Does that answer your question?
 
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Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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yes I do.. please note keywords. "IF they were saved" "If they were born again"
Charles Stanley clearly implies "If they were saved, but live in sin that they are still saved, but just miss out on heavenly benifits"...The bible clearly states a believer does not live in habitual sin. Stanley is using the word "if" not as if their salvation is in question, but as to assume a definite reality.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
><>t<><

Genuine SALVATION will always produce the desire and the ability to do good works.

Good Works will NEVER produce Salvation.

We were SAVED as a gift of GOD through faith that the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF PUT IN US, the very moment we first believed, which produces in us (IF IT WAS REAL) a deep conviction of sin and a willingness to surrender to Jesus Christ as LORD which means MASTER. That genuine Salvation (past tense) will become evident in our works. Hence "Work out your own salvation" LITERALLY MEANS "If you are saved, then ACT LIKE IT." That is all possible ONLY BECAUSE the HOLY SPIRIT at the moment of our Salvation brought our once DEAD to the Will of GOD human spirit, to an ETERNAL LIFE of being ALIVE to the Will of GOD. (BORN AGAIN)

Does that answer your question?
yes, but a simple "I don't agree with Stanley on this" would have been a more direct answer and to the point, and more appreciated by be.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Charles Stanley clearly implies "If they were saved, but live in sin that they are still saved, but just miss out on heavenly benifits"...The bible clearly states a believer does not live in habitual sin. Stanley is using the word "if" not as if their salvation is in question, but as to assume a definite reality.
so a prodigal son has lost salvation? I was one before. I lived in all kinds of sin. I hates life, and Gods chastening was severe, But I do not think I ever lost salvation. so sorry I must disagree bro ps. formatting is messed up.. so I will not be myself till I get it fixed..lol