SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[dcontroversal]

You are completely wrong. When a sinner trusts Christ to save them from their sin they are born again into Gods family. We become an heritage of the Lord. We have a new birthright which cannot be taken away. Never ever taken away. Not possible.

I urge you folks to trust Christ and stop trying to save yourselves. You cannot save yourself nor can you keep yourself from sinning. 1 John we are told if we say we don't sin we lie.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

AMEN to this presented truth...I agree.....IF we say we have no sin (present tense).....I agree also to the eternal state of our re-birth.

 

[Cassian]

Dude, Your not listening to a word I say, how can we continue to discuss anything if you continue to take what I say and ignore it twist it, or make it something I NEVER SAID.

A person who REJECTS CHRIST, is AGAINST CHRIST. (Anti-CHrist)

John says they were never saved. Your argument it with John not me.

do not expect me to continue to read all you say until you get this point down. because it is utterly a useless conversayiong.

Anyone who leaves Christ would then be an anti-christ. You can use any term you desire, if a believer loses faith, He IS NO LONGER IN CHRIST. You want to call him an anti-christ, so be it. The unfaithful servent of Matt 25:41ff would be an anti-christ. Scripture calls him an unfaithful servant. He was cast out with the unbelievers, clearly he was a believer. The Prodigal son is one WHO LEFT HIS FATHERS HOUSE. The parable is all about no longer being In Christ, He repented, and Christ/Father, takes him back in. If he had died in his sin, he would not have been saved. If God excepts this kind of living, He might as well permit everyone into heaven, there would be no difference.

Paul in II Timothy clearly states that many in the last day will lose faith and not be saved.
If one's salvation is based on faith, then loss of faith is loss of salvation. It is very simple formula. We don't need to redefine terms, don't need to create scenerios where one can explain the clear teaching away to support an errant view.

John by the way does not say they were NEVER saved. He states that they left and by leaving publically, one can know for a fact that one has rejected Christ. There are many who remain in the Body and since one cannot judge the heart, only God, we don't know if they are no longer a believer. What scripture is also saying, it is not about other people. It is about me and if I have been faithful and if I know that I am still living In Christ. That is why we need to constantly check our walk, to be sure we are still in faith. My responsibility is me, not look at others and surely not judge another.
Again, you have a different definition of what constitutes a believer.

 

[Cassian]

The disagreement is....

a. Saved by the perfect faith of Christ based upon mercy and grace through faith

or

b. Saved by works and kept saved by works

strawman again.
I believe fully in the first.

 

[royalscot]

class as in different money brackets, have different life styles. so thats why, some things concern, going to a church public/ meeting. for example, how you conduct your self in front of people. , how you dress, how you talk, etc can lead to others judging you.
class as in different money brackets, life style. etc

however, we cant shut ,that door, as this grace/ gift, is guiding all classes.
unless you think, are we seeded by class.

 

[Cassian]

The corrupt body of sin that is sold under sin, not subject to the law of God, is contrary, weak, corruptible and must either die and return to dust or be changed at the ana-stasis

THE SPIRIT is born of God, does not sin, is eternal and secure in the perfect FAITH of JESUS CHRIST

THE SPIRIT cannot sin, cannot deny itself, cannot fall form grace as it's birth was based upon GOD

The SPIRIT IS INDEED WILLING, but the FLESH IS WEAK...EVEN JESUS HAD A MOMENT OF WEAKNESS IN THE FLESH---------> FATHER IF IT BE POSSIBLE LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME!

SPIRIT IS SAVED BY FAITH< MERCY AND GRACE VOID OF HUMAN EFFORT OTHER THAN BELIEF

THE SPIRIT THAT IS BORN OF GOD AND DOES NOT SIN AND CANNOT BE LOST IS HOUSED IN A BODY THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN CHANGED.....THEY CONSTANTLY BATTLE FOR CONTROL OF THE MAN PERIOD.

I HAVE NOT SAID THAT A BORN AGIN BELIEVER WILL NOT BE BIBLICAL AND SUBMIT TO THE WORD OF GOD AND WALK CIRCUMSPECTLY! AT THE END OF THE DAY WHEN A MAN DIES...EVEN IF IT IS THE ONE PIECE OF FRUIT (DRIED UP FAITH) IT STILL IDENTIFIES HIM AS A CHILD OF GOD.

I passed a persimmon tree a week ago that had no leaves, no greenness and yet up top was 1 dried up old persimmon from last year<------I could tell what type of tree it was by the old, dried up fruit that it still held even in death (fall/winter)

The first part of your statement is pure Gnosticism.
In the second part you have a contradiction to your view.
You stated that this

"THE SPIRIT THAT IS BORN OF GOD AND DOES NOT SIN AND CANNOT BE LOST IS HOUSED IN A BODY THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN CHANGED.....THEY CONSTANTLY BATTLE FOR CONTROL OF THE MAN PERIOD.
" Which is precisely the problem man has. Man's problem is that he still so easily succumbs to the flesh. If one permits the flesh to dominate, one is in danger of losing faith, thus salvation. It is why believers have the some 300+ warnings about losing faith, being unfaithful, or stated they have lost salvation.

 

[Elin]

I am Church of Christ...But they may throw me out soon as
I have discovered that "we" were/are adding to scripture.

Interesting. . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Go back and read it again,John is ONLY talking about that group and that group,John is explaining who THOSE ANTICHRIST'S ARE. You are ADDING something INTO the text that IS NOT THERE. John is speaking of A TYPE of antichrist,no more and no less. And when you do that you are forcing the text to say something the TEXT DOES NOT SAY. The type of antichrist he is talking about is one that DENIES THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST. No where in that passage does John even speak of OTHER types of antichrist.

ok sis. I do not want to argue with you.

Just please explain.

John said an antichrist is one who denys christ,

so tell me..

What specific groups of people who deny Christ would he be talking about? I am not trying to be rude or argumentative. I am just asking a sincere question. I honestly did not know there were different groups of people who deny'd that jesus was the christ. So please help me understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do agree that when Paul is speaking to the Galatians he speaking to BELIEVERS correct? Then WHY DOES Paul write this to them

Galatians 1

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Galatians 3

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]4 Have you experienced[b]so much in vain—if it really was in vain?5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miraclesamong you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e]11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f]12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g]13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h]14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 4

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slavesto those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Galatians 5


It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Was Paul lying to them when he said they WERE ALIENATED FROM CHRIST and HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE? Paul is very clear in that letter that they ARE DESERTING the ONE WHO CALLED THEM TO LIVE IN GRACE. And if you say that they were unbelievers in the first place in essence what are really saying is that UNBELIEVERS CAN FALL AWAY FROM UNBELIEF. How does that make any sense whatsoever?

So did they lose salvation? Or did they prove they never had faith to begin with?

Have you ever tried to change something in your life. because you heard something which was supposed to be life changing, then found out that what you thought the change was did not actually help, it was not what you thought it was, so you went back to the old way, Because you (if your honest with yourself) never really believed that was not the correct way to begin with?

it has happened to me many times. And if I am honest with myself. I should never have tried the new thing to begin with, because I never really trusted it.

This is what paul is warning them about Check your faith, Is it in Christ, or is it in the law. If you leave and go back. You have fallen from what I have told you, And you are alienated from christ, If you doubt, Stick with it, Ask God to show his truth, but once you walk out that door. The chances of you ever coming back or slim to none. which is exactly what the author of hebrews was talking about. You fall away, You will not be able to be renewed to repentance, Because your faith was not completed. and you gave up the chance. You faith is to strong in the law,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyone who leaves Christ would then be an anti-christ.

see, Here you go again. Not listening twisting what I say. Anyone who DENY's CHRiST. Denies he is real. DENY's his way is the only way is an antichrist.

I left Christ, But I NEVER DENY'd Him, I became a prodigal son.

Again, I am not going to sit and respond to your lengthy posts when you can not even get the basic of what I am saying down. Show me you understand what I am saying, then MAYBE we can finally have a discussion.

If you have no desire to even try to understand, then just tell me, there is no need discussing beleifs with someone who has no desire to at least understand what the other person is saying

 

[eternally-gratefull]

strawman again.
I believe fully in the first.

how can you say this, when you are condemning those of us who teach the first? and have spent your short time in this chatroom proving that works must be had or one is not saved. and that those of us who teach otherwise are in error.

And you wonder why I say you do not even believe what you say.

 

[Apostol2013]

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[Apostol2013]

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

 

[Elin]

You here are contradicting your own thread.

According to what you posted here, one must have works for those works are proof he has been saved. Yet if one has no works, those lack of works proves he is NOT SAVED. In all of your twisting,
you twisted yourself into a self-contradicting knot.

Nope. . .

You really do not know, or understand, the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

Regarding TRUE faith vs. COUNTERFEIT faith:

Firstly, profession of faith is not necessarily possession of true faith,
as we see in Mt 7:21-23.
So then, what is the difference between true faith and counterfeit faith,
and how do we know which is which?

The difference is shown in Mt 7:21-23.
True faith obeys, counterfeit faith does not.

Anyone who says they believe, but who does not obey, does not really have true faith,
they have counterfeit faith.
Only true faith automatically saves, counterfeit faith does not save.

Therefore, anyone who says they are saved, but who does not obey,
is not saved,

not because he does not have the works necessary for salvation,

but because he does not have the true faith, necessary for salvation,

which true faith automatically saves without any works (Eph 2:8-9).

Disobedience simply manifests that one's faith is counterfeit, rather than true,
and one has not been saved by their counterfeit faith.

Biblical principle #2:
Those who do not obey are not saved, not because they do not have the works
necessary for salvation,

but because they do not have the true faith necessary for salvation,
which counterfeit faith is shown by their disobedience.

Secondly, the true faith which automatically saves is by grace, without any works,
it is 100% a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).

In addition to the counterfeit faith of Mt 7:21-23,
an excellent picture of counterfeit faith is found in the parable of the soils, at Lk 8:13.
It is the seed that fell on the rock, rather than in the soil.

"Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it,
but they have no root (rebirth, the only source of true faith).
They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

This is the testing explained in post #926, here,
whereby God separates true faith from counterfeit faith by trials of faith (1Pe 1:7; Jas 1:3),
wherein true faith perseveres through the trial, while counterfeit faith falls away.

Counterfeit faith is corroborated in 1Jn 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us (did not have true faith).
For if they had belonged to us (had true faith), they would have remained with us;
but their going was to show that none of them belonged to us (ever had true faith)."

The apostolic writings clearly present a true faith which saves,
and a counterfeit faith which does not save.

In all the Scriptures referring to those who fall away from the faith,
it is referring to a counterfeit faith (Lk 8:13; Mt 7:21-23; 1Jn 2:19) which falls away.
True faith always perseveres because of the power of God which keeps it
(Php 1:6, 2:13; 1Pe 1:5; Jn 10:28-29).

 

[Cassian]

So did they lose salvation? Or did they prove they never had faith to begin with?

Have you ever tried to change something in your life. because you heard something which was supposed to be life changing, then found out that what you thought the change was did not actually help, it was not what you thought it was, so you went back to the old way, Because you (if your honest with yourself) never really believed that was not the correct way to begin with?

it has happened to me many times. And if I am honest with myself. I should never have tried the new thing to begin with, because I never really trusted it.

This is what paul is warning them about Check your faith, Is it in Christ, or is it in the law. If you leave and go back. You have fallen from what I have told you, And you are alienated from christ, If you doubt, Stick with it, Ask God to show his truth, but once you walk out that door. The chances of you ever coming back or slim to none. which is exactly what the author of hebrews was talking about. You fall away, You will not be able to be renewed to repentance, Because your faith was not completed. and you gave up the chance. You faith is to strong in the law,

Your are arguing against your own view. If you tried something, it means you had faith in it. You accepted whatever the the salesman stated, even use it or did it, whatever you want to use here. The fact that you found out it was not your cup of tea, you lost faith and threw it out. Or you might also just ignore it, no longer use it which is still a loss of faith in it.

That is precisely what scripture is describing with a believer who loses faith. There are many reasons why, but the fact is a believer can lose his faith, reject his faith, thus reject Christ and reject salvation, unless repentance occurs.

 

[Cassian]

see, Here you go again. Not listening twisting what I say. Anyone who DENY's CHRiST. Denies he is real. DENY's his way is the only way is an antichrist.

I left Christ, But I NEVER DENY'd Him, I became a prodigal son.

Again, I am not going to sit and respond to your lengthy posts when you can not even get the basic of what I am saying down. Show me you understand what I am saying, then MAYBE we can finally have a discussion.

If you have no desire to even try to understand, then just tell me, there is no need discussing beleifs with someone who has no desire to at least understand what the other person is saying

You are the one who entered the anti-christ into the discussion. I had never used it. I am speaking of a believer losing faith. Some do actually, consciously verbally, denounce Christ. That is not even and anti-christ.

You have not gotten past proving your premise is even valid. "Being saved by faith only". I still have not seen any scriptrure that says one is saved by faith only. I have not seen that one is actually saved by simple ascent of faith either, which is part of your premise. You stated that the works is because one is SAVED, but I have not seen any text that shows that either.

 

[Cassian]

how can you say this, when you are condemning those of us who teach the first? and have spent your short time in this chatroom proving that works must be had or one is not saved. and that those of us who teach otherwise are in error.

And you wonder why I say you do not even believe what you say.

We are being saved through faith.
Your view would be more accurate if you stated that one is saved by faith/alone.
I can't put the alone on it. We are not saved by faith alone. But we are saved by grace, it is all grace, what Christ did for mankind, which enables man to even be eligible to have a relationship with Christ. Our relationship is by grace through faith. Huge difference. That is where we differ. The faith is always conditional. Our faith is always (present tense, active, continuing) it is NEVER past tense. If no works, means one has no faith. Thus will not inherit the promise that awaits those that endure to the end. Nothing complex about it. Scripture is quite clear on it.

 

[notuptome]

You have not gotten past proving your premise is even valid. "Being saved by faith only". I still have not seen any scriptrure that says one is saved by faith only. I have not seen that one is actually saved by simple ascent of faith either, which is part of your premise. You stated that the works is because one is SAVED, but I have not seen any text that shows that either.

You are quite correct we are not saved by faith only. We are saved by grace alone. There is no mutual effort. It is Gods grace that saves us. Nothing more is needed and nothing less will suffice.

You may argue with God if you wish but I choose to follow what is written in Eph 2:8-9. Saved is saved. Today tomorrow and forever.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

We are being saved through faith.
Your view would be more accurate if you stated that one is saved by faith/alone.
I can't put the alone on it. We are not saved by faith alone. But we are saved by grace, it is all grace, what Christ did for mankind, which enables man to even be eligible to have a relationship with Christ. Our relationship is by grace through faith. Huge difference. That is where we differ. The faith is always conditional. Our faith is always (present tense, active, continuing) it is NEVER past tense. If no works, means one has no faith. Thus will not inherit the promise that awaits those that endure to the end. Nothing complex about it. Scripture is quite clear on it.

Scripture does not teach that we must endure. We are saved and sealed unto the day of redemption. Saved by the blood and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day Christ presents us before the Father in eternity.

Grace is only received it is never earned and it is never deserved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are the one who entered the anti-christ into the discussion. I had never used it. I am speaking of a believer losing faith. Some do actually, consciously verbally, denounce Christ. That is not even and anti-christ.

That is not an antichrist?

Dude, there is no discussing anything with you. You do not even make sense. Your telling me a person who denounces Christ, Says I do not believe in you anymore. Who as I said gives god the finger and says I do not believe in you anymore, is not an antichrist.

No wonder you do not understand the word of God. You do not even understand what an antichrist is, John told you right in the passage what it was, " a person who denys jesus is the christ" and you just said John lied.

You have not gotten past proving your premise is even valid.

what you believe does not matter, if your going to say a person who openly supposes Christ, Denounces him, and no longer believes him is not what John makes clear is an antichrist. then there is no discussing the word of God with you. You obviously, openly, and publicly have proved beyond anyone doubt that you do not understand the basic premise of the word of God. and we can not discuss anything else.

so Like Elin and myself has asked you numerous times, what are you doing here? You obviously have no desire to discuss the word of God. you just publically proved you do not even understand the word of God and have no desire to discuss it. so why? why are you here??

 

[Apostol2013]

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
the works are of the spirit in all righteousness doing everything that pleases
Him and all that had hope in the resurection to salvation shall be Holy as God is Holy