Did Jesus Return in AD 70?

[john832]

Sigh, but that's not what's being said at all. It is much more probable that none of Revelation happened yet. Revelation is a prophecy, not a history. It would not make sense for it to talk about things that have all ready passed, at least before the writing of the prophecy. Now whether the signs began to come to pass after the writing of the prophecy might be a bit more fair of a debate. Though I am still pretty convinced Revelation has not happened yet but that all the prophecies contained therein shall pass in the time of the last generations.

Some of Revelation has occurred, but none of it had occurred prior to John writing it. He wrote prophecy, not history. Case in point...

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Diocletian's edict that began a ten year persecution from 303AD to 313AD.

 

[Bookends]

I know this is not a popular belief, but I think that the abomination of desolation may have been Caiaphas or Pontius. Caiaphas denied Jesus and asked for a murderer to be released. He also said, "We have no King except Caesar!", denying Jesus and God (I am not debating at this point that they are not the same, but Caiaphas most likely did not consider Jesus and God to be one). God was killed by his own people. Whether the abomination was Caiaphas or Pontius (who I believe was in the temple when he made the judgment to allow Jesus to be killed) I cannot think of a greater abomination than the Son of God being beaten and killed at the request of the chosen people!

At least your thinking and examining these things from all possible angles (instead of eating what is force fed to you by the mainstream american evangelicals) A greater abomination could be the continuation of animals sacrifices once the substance (Christ) of types and shadows came. I believe it was a greater abomination to God that the priests continued to play the role of God in their work of high priest and atonement for sin by animals sacrifices. Although these things could never take away the sins of the peopel/world, however they thought it could. They missed the meaning behind it entirely.

 

[Bookends]

That actually not John's words, but the words of Jesus to John telling him to write what he sees, what is and what will come hereafter. This is a command to John to write Revelation.

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

And once Jesus gave these words and visions to John, they could have happened or been fulfilled anytime in his future, it does not mean our future. John, or you'd rather me say Jesus, told his first readers that the time is near, it is at hand, time is short, etc. and that they could know by calculation of who the individual beast is by the number 600 60 and 6. This calculation in the Hebraic language spells out Nero. What an injustice it would have been that Jesus told these people they could know who this beast is, but yet how could they know who this beast is if 2000+ years in their future! What significance would it make if they know who this beast was after they were long dead? Take off your 21st century goggles and place yourself in the time scripture was written.

 

[Bookends]

Sigh, but that's not what's being said at all. It is much more probable that none of Revelation happened yet. Revelation is a prophecy, not a history. It would not make sense for it to talk about things that have all ready passed, at least before the writing of the prophecy. Now whether the signs began to come to pass after the writing of the prophecy might be a bit more fair of a debate. Though I am still pretty convinced Revelation has not happened yet but that all the prophecies contained therein shall pass in the time of the last generations.

When prophecy is fulfilled, it is history.

 

[Vaudeville]

Some of Revelation has occurred, but none of it had occurred prior to John writing it. He wrote prophecy, not history. Case in point...

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Diocletian's edict that began a ten year persecution from 303AD to 313AD.

is this another example of your day-year principle?

 

[Vaudeville]

Some of Revelation has occurred, but none of it had occurred prior to John writing it.

really.

Revelation 12
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

etc. etc.
why do so many people teach Revelation when they haven't studied it?
visions are visions. they can be of the past, present or future. Revelation contains all of those.

 

[Bookends]

Yes, a most of it was prophecy when John saw it and still some after the resurrection. But all of it was fulfilled with the formation of the church and the destruction of the temple and the blood line of the Levites. The new Jerusalem is the church.

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” The bride is the Church - This is referenced in the new testament.

Rev 21:22-27 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Again, I believe this is the present and eternal kingdom. This in not something that we are waiting for because we are in it.


Rev 22:1-9 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [SUP]3 [/SUP]There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; [SUP]4 [/SUP]they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he whoheeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

The river is the Holy Spirit. The tree of Life is Jesus. The curse of death has been lifted in Jesus. I do find it interesting that it says twelve fruits, while the bible lists nine fruits of the Spirit.


Rev 22:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

The time is near. Do not seal up the words of this prophecy. I am coming quickly. Soon, soon, soon. In Daniel it says to keep the words secret, because that prophecy referred to many days in the future. Both have been fulfilled. No, I haven't put it all together, but this is where I am working from because it seems to "fit" better than the other interpretations that I have heard. By the way, I did come to this understanding without the aid of commentaries - Just good old bible reading. I have found someone that is very close to the same understanding: Foy Wallace. I need to read the whole book, but I haven't got around to it yet.

I've been enjoying Steve Gregg lately, he has written the book on the four prominent views of Revelations.

The Narrow Path | Home

[video=youtube;kGyp2qoGkVA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGyp2qoGkVA[/video]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I don't believe this, the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus mentions in Matt. 24 had already happened, in the persecution of the Jews by Anticochus IV Epiphanes. Jesus is simply making a reference back to this prophecy to give the early Christians a warning, that when they see such a thing, a man setting up an idol in the temple and offering an abominable sacrifice, it's time to go.

For what you say to be true, you need a physical temple. We don't have one, and I don't think you'll ever see one...but until you do, Christ can not come. There you guys go again, setting up conditions for His return, almost as bad as date setting.

Funny thing is the only thing stopping a new temple this very moment is a place to put it. Also. Jesus made conditions for his return. He said himself. that if he did not come, No life on earth would survive. Thats a prety big condition.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The statue of Zeus was placed on the Altar of Sacrifices, not in the holy place. The Altar of Sacrifices where the abomination of the Greeks was set up was outside the Temple, not inside it. Furthermore Judas Maccabbeus tore down the abomination of the Greeks well before Jesus time. Therefore the Abomination of Desolation is not the abomination of Zeus put up during the time of Antiochus IV.

Plus you know, there has to be the whole war on earth, war in heaven, and all those signs that come before the Abomination of Desolation.

As for the physical Temple, whoever said we don't have one?

Antiochus took a pig inside the holy of Holys (an unclean thing) And slit its throat (sacrificed it)

As for the abomination. It is the things which starts the end time, that is why Jesus said run, for THEN there will be great tribulation such as the earth has never seen before, nor will ever see again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know this is not a popular belief, but I think that the abomination of desolation may have been Caiaphas or Pontius. Caiaphas denied Jesus and asked for a murderer to be released. He also said, "We have no King except Caesar!", denying Jesus and God (I am not debating at this point that they are not the same, but Caiaphas most likely did not consider Jesus and God to be one). God was killed by his own people. Whether the abomination was Caiaphas or Pontius (who I believe was in the temple when he made the judgment to allow Jesus to be killed) I cannot think of a greater abomination than the Son of God being beaten and killed at the request of the chosen people!

Daniel said it would be seen in the holy place. This is a literal event. Where the holy place of the jewish temple is desecrated (made unclean)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree, just because it was God's plan for our salvation, does not mean that it was not an abomination. And I personally believe that the beast of Rev. 17 was Israel/Judah.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

I believe that the Kings may be Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. I will stop there, but the beast is the resulting (and existing at the time that Rev. was written) state of the chosen people at that time. The harlot that rode on the beast was Jerusalem, in my humble opinion. If you are familiar with the OT, and I believe you are, then you know that God called Israel "Egypt" long after they left Egypt because they were acting like Egyptians. In Revelation, God calls them Babylon, because they had become like Babylonians. To me this seems pretty clear, but I do realize my humanity and the possibility that I am wrong.

wow ok now we are way out there.

beasts (as in daniel) are leaders of kingdoms. The beast in rev is the leader of the roman empire. be it the one in 70 AD, or the future prince who is to come.

it is not Israel. this replacement theology is the theology that has me steaming.. God has not forgotten the covenant he made with abraham issac and jacob,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Many people try to read scripture to see if what they think is right. Some just listen to others and don't take the time to read it for themselves. Some have opinions and then read to prove them. Some read and form opinions and then try to match everything to their opinions. The real problem is when we find something that totally disproves our opinions that we refuse to accept it. Here's the thing, I have not put all the pieces together, but I have found enough to disprove many other theories (in my own mind) so I have rejected them. Fortunately, I don't believe that completely understanding everything that the prophets said is a salvation issue. But I also enjoy reading the prophets and would like to know.

ah, your like me, a prophesy and history freak..lol

 

[Vaudeville]

Daniel said it would be seen in the holy place. This is a literal event. Where the holy place of the jewish temple is desecrated (made unclean)

but there's no temple. even if there was, it would be 'unclean' anyway. Jesus has already come.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

After Jesus returns the earth is a brned out shell with no life left on it...
not yet..

Really?

Thats funny, He himself states he comes so their will not be a burnt out shell. That is one of the reasons he comes.

As he says, he who endures to the end will be saved, according to what you just said, no one would be saved, they would all die. So why try to endure to the end?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that he is saying that some of Revelation has already happened and some of it was going to happen. But I believe that all, if not most, has already happened.

mind if I ask why you say this.

I believe most have not happened yet. I do not see how we could make them occure, with out lessening the affect they would have on earth and the kings of the earth.

WW1 and WW2 was a earthly tribulation which made AD70 look like a picnic in the park. So it could not possibly be the great tribulation which is greater than the world would ever see.

the way I see it, this great tribulation will make WW1 and WW2 look like a picnic in the park. Thats some prety severe suffering, Which would explain why the kings of the earth would hide under rocks, and scream, it is the day of the Lords wrath, who can witshtand it.. This did not happen in AD 70

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sigh, but that's not what's being said at all. It is much more probable that none of Revelation happened yet. Revelation is a prophecy, not a history. It would not make sense for it to talk about things that have all ready passed, at least before the writing of the prophecy. Now whether the signs began to come to pass after the writing of the prophecy might be a bit more fair of a debate. Though I am still pretty convinced Revelation has not happened yet but that all the prophecies contained therein shall pass in the time of the last generations.

the very fact that Jesus said, things which are, shows that some things are completed. we can not twist what God says.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, a most of it was prophecy when John saw it and still some after the resurrection. But all of it was fulfilled with the formation of the church and the destruction of the temple and the blood line of the Levites. The new Jerusalem is the church.

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” The bride is the Church - This is referenced in the new testament.

Rev 21:22-27 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Again, I believe this is the present and eternal kingdom. This in not something that we are waiting for because we are in it.


Rev 22:1-9 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [SUP]3 [/SUP]There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; [SUP]4 [/SUP]they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he whoheeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

The river is the Holy Spirit. The tree of Life is Jesus. The curse of death has been lifted in Jesus. I do find it interesting that it says twelve fruits, while the bible lists nine fruits of the Spirit.


Rev 22:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

The time is near. Do not seal up the words of this prophecy. I am coming quickly. Soon, soon, soon. In Daniel it says to keep the words secret, because that prophecy referred to many days in the future. Both have been fulfilled. No, I haven't put it all together, but this is where I am working from because it seems to "fit" better than the other interpretations that I have heard. By the way, I did come to this understanding without the aid of commentaries - Just good old bible reading. I have found someone that is very close to the same understanding: Foy Wallace. I need to read the whole book, but I haven't got around to it yet.

how can this be?

there is still sin
There is still evil
The animals still kill for food.

I can go on and on and on.

and bookends bro. I understand you think this all occured in 70 AD. but you think new jerusalem is the church? Your scaring me bro

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said 70AD was His second coming, as a physical manifestation. However, 70AD was coming of Christ in Judgment against an apostate nation, Israel and Jerusalem as the capital. Just like how God came and judged other cities and nations in the OT.

the problem is, The OT prophets said Jesus would destroy the gentile nations who treated Israel badly when Israel was under their care while God punished Israel.

so how can Israels destruction be the fulfillment?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When prophecy is fulfilled, it is history.

amen. Christ was the fulfilment of alot of prophesy, and it is past..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but there's no temple. even if there was, it would be 'unclean' anyway. Jesus has already come.

true.

but the temple has not been clean since the first temple was destroyed.

do you honestly think the high priest who had jesus killed actually entered the holy of holy's clean? No high priest had entered clean since even the babylonian return from exhile. Which proved Gods presence was never in it/.

remember, They had to tie a rope to the high priest, because if he was not clean he would die. How many unclean high priests entered and did not die, Gods presence left long before the babylonian captivity, and it never returned.

And again, They are trying to buld a temple today, if they would start, they would have it finished in less than a year. and they have ALL the stuff which is supposed to go in it already, including the animals, which they are raising up, and priests. (including the garments as required by the law of moses)