Messianic Christians?

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Linda70

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Stephen,

Messianics aren't in the habit of using the word "church"....and it was probably the article I posted about the Doctrinal Dangers of the Messianic Movement where you found when, where and how the Messianic movement began....and it was way after 1948.

BTW, I am an Ashkenazi Jew....so be careful what you say about Ashkenazi Jews and the nation of Israel. I am also a born again Christian.
 
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Kerry

Guest
I do believe there are true messianic christians, but I'm very wary of the fact that some try to squeeze in law into the New Covenant, making it of none effect. Knowing the truths & holy days of the OT is important to understanding the New Covenant.... but we should never cross the line with adding Judiasm, their observances, or their traditions into our worship & beliefs.

Someone stated the messianic church started right after Israel became a nation again...... I'm surprised no one has thought of the ashkenazi jews or their relationship to it, since they have infiltrated everything else in Israel.
I saw a study that said that 95% of current Israelis are atheist, fitting right along with biblical prophesy.
 

crossnote

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I was under the impression that the modern 'Messianic' movement started around the same time that the 'Roots' movement in America (circa 1975) took hold and many started wanting to rediscover their heritage... including Hebrew Christians .
 
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Linda70

Guest
I was under the impression that the modern 'Messianic' movement started around the same time that the 'Roots' movement in America (circa 1975) took hold and many started wanting to rediscover their heritage... including Hebrew Christians .
All that information about the modern 'Messianic' movement is in that article I posted in this thread. You are correct, crossnotes, I believe the modern 'Messianic' movement began in the 70s along with the HRM.

Kerry,

You may be correct about the percentage of Israelis who are, or claim to be, atheists...and yes, it does fit right along with biblical prophecy. However, it does not annul God's unconditional promises and covenants to the nation of Israel. All prophecies concerning Israel and the Second coming of Christ will be literally fulfilled, as were the over 300 prophecies concerning the first coming of Christ literally fulfilled.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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All that information about the modern 'Messianic' movement is in that article I posted in this thread. You are correct, crossnotes, I believe the modern 'Messianic' movement began in the 70s along with the HRM.
Ruth Wardell goes over some of the early history in her book 'Ruth With the Truth'. She was there long before the change was made as she was a missionary to NY Jewish children back in the days when they freely said JESUS and CHRIST and celebrated Christmas (oh my).
Biography of Ruth With The Truth Wardell: Ruth Wardell, Jeffrey Gutterman: 9781935174080: Amazon.com: Books
 
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Linda70

Guest
Ruth Wardell goes over some of the early history in her book 'Ruth With the Truth'. She was there long before the change was made as she was a missionary to NY Jewish children back in the days when they freely said JESUS and CHRIST and celebrated Christmas (oh my).
Biography of Ruth With The Truth Wardell: Ruth Wardell, Jeffrey Gutterman: 9781935174080: Amazon.com: Books
That book looks like something I would save up to purchase. So this is the lady who led Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum to faith in Christ....that is too cool!
 
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The New Covenant is not fulfilled in the Church. In Hebrews 8:8-10, it says that the New Covenant belongs to “the house of Judah and the house of Israel”. The writer of Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the Old Testament promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant, and he also states that every New Testament believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does the writer of Hebrews state that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church. The Apostle Paul (whom I believe to be the writer of Hebrews) taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Romans 11:25-27).
but, if the new covenant isn't literally fulfilled now, what did Jesus death mean?:confused:
 
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By New Testament believers I mean all members of the body of Christ/the Church....both Jew and Gentile. Although there are Jewish believers in the body of Christ/the Church, the majority of the body of Christ/the Church, is Gentile. The spiritual blessings include ALL believers...nobody is "precluded". Which "Dispy" group precludes the Gentile believers from the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant? I don't think I'm in that group.
what do you mean the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant? because you said the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age:confused: i don't get it.
bedtime:)
 
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Linda70

Guest
what do you mean the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant? because you said the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age:confused: i don't get it.
bedtime:)
Here's what I said:
The Apostle Paul taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Romans 11:25-27).
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; 10:9-22). It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Hebrews 8:7-13). The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zechariah 13).

The New Covenant was made with the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).
It will replace the Mosaic covenant (Jeremiah 31:32; Hebrews 10:8-9).
It promises regeneration and cleansing from sin (Jeremiah 31:33-34).
It reaffirms Israel's national security and future kingdom (Jeremiah 31:35-37).
It promises Israel's possession of the land (Jeremiah 32:37,41-44).
It is eternal (Jeremiah 32:40).
It promises God's blessing upon the land (Ezekiel 36:29-30).
 

JGIG

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Aug 2, 2013
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jesus Christ roots are jewish . to be in the tribe of levi, you had to have your ancestral blood line to Abraham, some say adam.(and be able to prove this, to be excepted to the priesthood ) john the baptist also has his roots to the tribe of levi also.

to the people that don't know, jesus and john, could have served in the priesthood of levi.

in book of Hebrews,it tells why jesus, could go in to the most holy place, in the temple in heaven.

read your bible, if john and jesus are related, then jesus can be in the levi priesthood as well. the order of melchizedek, has nothing to do with the blood line, that said in the degrees, that to be in the tribe if levi, you have to have your blood line going back to Abraham. yet there is only two places in the bible that talks about melchizadeck. yet even paul said he has the blood line of david. Hebrew we don't know who wrote this book. however we do know who was given the law and the degrees. to be in the levi priesthood, you need your blood line to go back to Abraham. and for the record you need 12 men to start a synagogue. so again go back and study your bible. and I wonder who had 12 men to start one. lol
he entered at 12 years old, mary and joseph could not find him. so he did enter the temple proper, just don't say what he did when he was in there.
they gave his blood line for a reason, when ask why are you teaching this, the teachers of law and Pharisee had no complaint.
jesus is a jew and also taught in synagogue. this is not a christain church,. I mentioned levi because of the priesthood was attached to it. I looked again and in numbers levi was not a tribe. and every first born of isreal belonged to god num 1 47-54.
30 year old he started his work , being called rabbi, teacher, etc just like danel 30 years old.
ie is the tent of holy place in the Hebrews, is that symbolic for the tent of holy in the temple on earth.
if he had to die, there was no need for him to enter the worldly one. because animal killing god did not want, but because he was sent to a jewish people,(to save them under law) he had to follow the law of moses and forfill it as a jewish person. and as he was a rabbi, teacher of the law, etc he knew the scripture of the old testament. and this is showen by his age.

age of time of baby, man at 12 years old, and 30 years old to start his ministry, fit with jewish customs. or following in the priesthood like that of the levi.

the genealogy of jesus is there for a reason. sorry you cant see this, he did enter the temple, did he have to die or be killed for that to happen, be rejected so that the gentiles could receive him. I have a bible too. just because you cant see, don't mean other can see. why else did the apostel put his blood line in the gospel.

The Levitical priesthood has to be traced back to Abraham? To Adam? Heck, everyone can be traced back to Adam, yes? So that's just silliness. And the '12 men to start a synagogue' bit? That's no where in the Scriptures! And Christ did not come to establish synagogues, but to establish His Body, the Church. Someone else covered Christ teaching in the Temple, so I'll limit my comments to the lineage of Christ.

The tribes of Israel didn't even exist until Jacob, and the priesthood for the Old Covenant didn't exist until Sinai (430 years after Abraham).

The priestly line came from Aaron, a Levite, not from Abraham or Adam, who had no tribal affiliation in the nation of Israel.

As for John the Baptist being a Levite and being related to Jesus, 'so Jesus can be in the levi priesthood, too', no, it does not work out that way.

Here's why:

Christ's mother Mary was a cousin of Elizabeth, who was the daughter of a Levite. According to Jewish tradition, lineage is determined through the mother, but according to Biblical Law, tribal lineage is determined through the father's line (patrilineal).

Here's how it breaks down:

  • Mary and Elizabeth had mothers who were sisters, making Mary and Elizabeth cousins.
-or-

  • Mary's mother and Elizabeth's father were sister and brother, making Mary and Elizabeth cousins.


Elizabeth was married to Zechariah, a priest in the Temple, making him a Levite. As a Levite priest, Zechariah had to be married to a Levite (per Lev. 21). So . . .

  • We know that Elizabeth had to be a Levite.
  • That does not mean that Mary had to be a Levite, however, because her Tribal affiliation was determined through her father's bloodline, not her mother's bloodline, and her father was of the Tribe of Judah.


Again, while 'Jewishness' in 'modern times' is determined by the maternal line, Tribal affiliation was determined IN THE BIBLE by the paternal line.

So even though Mary's father (Heli, of the Tribe of Judah) likely did marry the daughter of a Levite (which would make it possible for Elizabeth to be Mary's relative - some say cousin, some say aunt, also being a Levite, able to marry a Levite High Priest, Zechariah), Mary's Tribal affiliation was determined by her father's Tribe, not by her mother's Tribe.

Is it possible that Levite blood coursed through Messiah's veins?


Yes - Gentile blood also coursed through Messiah's veins, as there are several Gentile women listed in the line of David.

Those Gentile women's presence in the line of David does not make Messiah a Gentile any more than the presence of a Levite in the line of David through Mary makes Messiah a Levite.

Christ is of the Tribe of Judah, of the Line of David, determined by the Paternal line.

His Tribal affiliation, through His female flesh-parent, was determined to be Judah through her patriarchal lineage, as all lineages throughout the Bible are determined.

Hebrews 7:11-16 clearly states:

11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

13 For He of whom these things are spoken
---> belongs to another tribe, <---
from which no man has officiated at the altar.

14 ---> For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, <---

of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.


And here is gets really interesting, for the Scriptures put Jesus' lineage in the Flesh from the line of Judah, but what of His Father's Seed?

Surely you all understand that God is not of any fleshly tribe of Israel or any other nation, right?

The letter to the Hebrews tells us that Christ Jesus became our Perfect High Priest - His flesh of the Tribe of Judah on His mother's side - His Spirit begotten of God and Christ's Priesthood in the likeness of Melchizedek - a priest with no recorded lineage. There is much more to explore in the reference to Melchizedek, but for the purposes of this post, suffice it to say that Melchizedek was a priest hundreds of years before the Old Covenant fleshly Priesthood was defined and established at Sinai.

What does all that mean?

It means that Christ is our Perfect, Permanent, Forever High Priest of the New Covenant, that's what it means! \o/

-JGIG
 

JGIG

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Aug 2, 2013
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The "old" (Mosaic) covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
So, you're saying God doesn't keep his promises?
MrsRoseTreasure, you'll have to share with the rest of us the super-secret code that you use to take this:

"The 'old' (Mosaic) covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13)."

And turn it into this:

"So you're saying that God doesn't keep his promises."

I know you put your quote in question form, but that's not how you meant it :rolleyes:.

So how is it that you get something so completely unrelated out of someone's clear statement?

Do tell.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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The New Covenant is not fulfilled in the Church.
I agree. The New Covenant is fulfilled in and by Christ Jesus, God in the flesh, Who said this:

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (from Jer. 31)

God promises the New Covenant and then tells us that HE is the One Who will fulfill it!

20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. (from 2 Cor. 1)


In Christ are all the promises of God fulfilled. Jews and Gentiles alike enter into the New Covenant Promise (which is itself a fulfillment of God's Promise to all mankind after man fell in the Garden) by faith:

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (from Eph. 3)

In Hebrews 8:8-10, it says that the New Covenant belongs to “the house of Judah and the house of Israel”. The writer of Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the Old Testament promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant, and he also states that every New Testament believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does the writer of Hebrews state that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church.
Here's where we disagree. A 'transferring' isn't the issue. You're right, there is no place that says the New Covenant is transferred to anyone; just entered into by whosoever will put their faith in Christ. The New Covenant is for all who will believe - we enter into the New Covenant by faith. It's not an 'only for Israel' covenant, but a fulfillment of all of God's promises for all mankind. "Through the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel (believing Israel), members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

Believing Gentiles are the adopted of God, just as believing Jews/Israel are; we are One New Man in Christ, and Christ 'is not ashamed to call us brothers." (Heb. 2)

The Apostle Paul (whom I believe to be the writer of Hebrews) taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Romans 11:25-27).
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Has God taken away the sins of the world? Yes:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (from 1 Jn. 2)

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)



Does that mean that all are saved? No . . . we enter in by faith, or we remain condemned:

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (from Jn. 3)

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!



The New Covenant is fulfilled and in full effect NOW - with the Blood of Christ was it ratified. Whosoever will enters into what God has ALREADY DONE, by faith through Christ.

-JGIG






 
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Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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The New Covenant is not fulfilled in the Church. In Hebrews 8:8-10, it says that the New Covenant belongs to “the house of Judah and the house of Israel”. The writer of Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the Old Testament promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant, and he also states that every New Testament believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does the writer of Hebrews state that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church.
The New covenant, like the Old Covenant, is for God's people.
In the OT, that was the Jews.
In the OT, it is both Jews and Gentiles.

There is no other covenant remaining.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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The New Covenant is not fulfilled in the Church. In Hebrews 8:8-10, it says that the New Covenant belongs to “the house of Judah and the house of Israel”. The writer of Hebrews refers to the New Covenant to show that the Mosaic system was only temporary and that even the Old Testament promised that one day it would be abolished and replaced by another covenant, and he also states that every New Testament believer partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant through Christ, but nowhere does the writer of Hebrews state that this covenant has been transferred from national Israel to the church. The Apostle Paul (whom I believe to be the writer of Hebrews) taught that the New Covenant will be literally fulfilled following the church age (Romans 11:25-27).
howdy Linda70:)
i like many of your posts.
but this one is confusing. i used 3 search engines and i can't find "church age" anywhere in the bible. what does it mean? and what follows it?
 
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The New Covenant is fulfilled and in full effect NOW - with the Blood of Christ was it ratified. Whosoever will enters into what God has ALREADY DONE, by faith through Christ.

-JGIG
hey JGIG:) i like many of your posts, too.
this part HAS to be true, doesn't it? i can't figure out how this can not be true. help! could someone explain to me what i'm missing?
 
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Here's what I said:


Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; 10:9-22). It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Hebrews 8:7-13). The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zechariah 13).

The New Covenant was made with the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).
It will replace the Mosaic covenant (Jeremiah 31:32; Hebrews 10:8-9).
It promises regeneration and cleansing from sin (Jeremiah 31:33-34).
It reaffirms Israel's national security and future kingdom (Jeremiah 31:35-37).
It promises Israel's possession of the land (Jeremiah 32:37,41-44).
It is eternal (Jeremiah 32:40).
It promises God's blessing upon the land (Ezekiel 36:29-30).
okay. but "Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ". what are the spiritual aspects? what does that even mean? if there is something israel will receive in addition to what christians receive (?), what will christians be doing through eternity?

honestly, when i read the new testament, i saw that the christians were actually jews. like, israel/jews.
it makes no sense at all if they didn't already receive those new covenant spiritual blessings (if they accepted them).

because i read this part (i just keep it simple and read what it says) - He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. that wasn't true of everyone, obviously, because the christians were the jews (israel), weren't they?:confused:
it goes on to say But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

i read about Jesus in the land of israel (which means they were there), and that all the teachings of the new covenant which the jewish scriptures pointed to went to the Jew first and also to the Greek, it says. so if the new covenant teachings and blessings went to the jew first, how can you say the new covenant isn't fulfilled?
 
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Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
that's what the new covenant is. that's what God said. and that's what Jesus did, right? how can anyone expect anything if their sins have not been forgiven?

their sins were taken away by Jesus. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. that was already done for israel, wasn't it? and for everyone. i'm in the dark on this one. someone explain (please:confused:)
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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That book looks like something I would save up to purchase. So this is the lady who led Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum to faith in Christ....that is too cool!
Yes, that's her and the book is a great read. Also she is interviewed somewhere on YouTube...lotsa spunk.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
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okay. but "Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ". what are the spiritual aspects? what does that even mean? if there is something israel will receive in addition to what christians receive (?), what will christians be doing through eternity?

honestly, when i read the new testament, i saw that the christians were actually jews. like, israel/jews.
it makes no sense at all if they didn't already receive those new covenant spiritual blessings (if they accepted them).

because i read this part (i just keep it simple and read what it says) - He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. that wasn't true of everyone, obviously, because the christians were the jews (israel), weren't they?:confused:
it goes on to say But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

i read about Jesus in the land of israel (which means they were there), and that all the teachings of the new covenant which the jewish scriptures pointed to went to the Jew first and also to the Greek, it says. so if the new covenant teachings and blessings went to the jew first, how can you say the new covenant isn't fulfilled?
well as I understand it the new covenant replaces the mosaic covenant but the Abrahamic covenant still stands and it includes land which is not promised to the believing gentiles.