No trust in Creation...no trust in Genesis....no trust in Scriptures...

[JackH]

I don't "go ask' any fallable man. I read the Bible where God gives me my answers. As the old lady said, "Try it you may like it".

Fallable” is not a word.

So, YOUR Bible gives you ALL the answers? Is that right?

What Bible is that, exactly? The KJV, or what?

And you believe that the world is around 6,000 years old, dinosaurs coexisted with humans, and the Ice Age happened somewhere around 4,000 years ago? Is that right?

And your Bible tells you all this? Right?

And any information whatsoever to the contrary must be wrong and is not worthy of examination? Is that right?

 

[JackH]

Space won't allow to list a whole lot more.

Oh, my favorite game. Copy and Paste.

Let me go get a list of Christians who are scientists who do not believe the world is 6,000 years old and copy and paste it.

I think enlightener may have been asking a rhetorical question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK, I'm done thinking, at least about this.

There are places in the Middle East where it snows.

Don't you remember last December when there were big snow storms there? It was all over the national news. With video of snow surrounding the Dome of the Rock and such.

so let me guess you do not believe in a whole earth flood either. The bible is just a book to you right?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To answer, "are there christians that are also scientist?" Here are a few who have accepted the biblical account of creation and believe the Bible. They're also very "intellectual intelligent people ". Space won't allow to list a whole lot more.

•Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
•Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
•Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
•Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
•Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
•Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
•Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
•Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
•Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
•r. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
•Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
•Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
•Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
•Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
•Prof. Stuart Burgess, Engineering Design
•Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
•Dr. Rob Carter, Marine Biology
•Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
•Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
•Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
•Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
•Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
•Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
•Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
•Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
•Timothy C. Coppess, MS, Environmental Scientist
•Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
•Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist

ya forgot quite a few. but will not matter,

they will use the ones who believe in old earth..

 

[Fishbait]

Jesus would likely say, "I never rode no damn dinosaur, pilgrim."

I do not think Jesus is very pleased with this talk of dinosaurs coexisting with humans.

You appear to be smart JackH. Trying to 'make funny' with the name of Jesus is not funny. From a man 96 years old 'making funny' with the name of Jesus and supposing what He might say is not smart or funny. In the future try and refrain from using the name of Jesus while trying to make your points about what you believe. Many here find your post's interesting and informative without 'making funny' while using the name of Jesus. To quote you, "I do not think Jesus is very pleased with this talk...". That statement is true. Also please remember this one made by the One you attempted to 'making funny' about with your statement of, "Jesus would likely say, "I never rode no damn dinosaur, pilgrim."


"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matthew 12:36


God bless you

 

[christianperson91]

Well im late to this thread, but let me give my two cents when it comes to whether or not different views of the creation story in Genesis is a salvation issue. Personally I don't believe it is. Jesus giving us salvation does not require us to view everything about Genesis as historical accuracy. The importance and fact that Jesus died for our sins, and rose from the dead to save us from our own depravity, and is the Son of God, is far more important then whether or not Man came from dirt or from animals, or the earth is 6,000 yrs or 4.5 billion years old (either way God exists and is the Creator). I know that there are Christians out there that believe for whatever reason that not everything in Genesis is supposed to be scientifically or historically accurate. If they are wrong, I don't think that belief will prevent them from entering into paradise with Jesus. I know a christian could have the incorrect view of Genesis while still maintain a relationship with Jesus Christ. We don't have to be right or correct on everything that we believe in to enter Paradise.

 

[Fishbait]

Recently I have been doing some street work with young folks and a constant theme with them, is that they are bombarded in school, college and the media in general ( see EVERY NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAM ON THE TV) with the theory that the world evolved. This leads them then to diss any idea of a creation based history of the world and therefore a disbelief in the book of Genesis as the truth of God's word. Once you compromise on Genesis, you compromise on the basic principles of our faith....sin entering the world as a result of man's disobedience, death as a result of sin, mans separation from God and the need for salvation, Satan as a reality, marriage between a man and a women etc.
In My opinion a rejection of creation is possibly Satan's greatest achievement and one which he has successfully propagated throughout history......
Many Christians state that A belief in Creation is not something to get too "worked up about" as it is not really a "salvation matter"......I beg to differ. It is possibly the biggest stumbling block to the non christians ability to see their need for Salvation ......
evolution is Satanic in origin and must be tackled everywhere it is encountered!!

Read how Dr. Kevin Horton came to learn from teachers that taught evolution that science is an unreliable historian.

Dr. Kevin Horton practiced Veterinary Medicine in Montana for 20 years before leaving his love of animals behind to teach and preach the Bible. He completed his Masters in Divinity at Moody in 2011, and developed and taught Genesis 1–11 for a small one-year Bible college in Montana. He is presently the Senior Pastor at Crossroads Christian Fellowship in Victor, MT. His wife Tatjana and he have 5 children.

Read his story on how science led him to become a Christian:

Unreliable historian - creation.com

 

[Fishbait]

Well im late to this thread, but let me give my two cents when it comes to whether or not different views of the creation story in Genesis is a salvation issue. Personally I don't believe it is. Jesus giving us salvation does not require us to view everything about Genesis as historical accuracy. The importance and fact that Jesus died for our sins, and rose from the dead to save us from our own depravity, and is the Son of God, is far more important then whether or not Man came from dirt or from animals, or the earth is 6,000 yrs or 4.5 billion years old (either way God exists and is the Creator). I know that there are Christians out there that believe for whatever reason that not everything in Genesis is supposed to be scientifically or historically accurate. If they are wrong, I don't think that belief will prevent them from entering into paradise with Jesus. I know a christian could have the incorrect view of Genesis while still maintain a relationship with Jesus Christ. We don't have to be right or correct on everything that we believe in to enter Paradise.

The issue is not old earth vs young earth but this: Can fallible, sinful man be in authority over the Word of God?

A “young-Earth” view admittedly receives the scoffing from a majority of the scientists. But Paul warned us in 1 Corinthians 8:2 (KJV), “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.” Compared to what God knows, we know next to nothing! This is why we should be so careful to let God speak to us through His Word, and not try to impose our ideas on God’s Word.

It’s also interesting to note that this verse is found in the same passage where Paul warns that “knowledge puffeth up.” Academic pride is found throughout our culture.

Therefore, many Christian leaders would rather believe the world’s fallible academics, than the simple clear words of the Bible.

Once you have told people to accept man’s dating methods, and thus should not take the first chapters of Genesis as they are written, you have effectively undermined the Bible. Young people leave the Christian faith in droves when you allow this to happen without giving an answer they can understand. An answer that can be found in the Bible.

Jesus was a young-earth creationist. Jesus consistently treated the miracle accounts of the Old Testament as straightforward, truthful, historical accounts (e.g., creation of Adam, Noah and the Flood, Lot and his wife in Sodom, Moses and the manna, and Jonah in the fish). He continually affirmed the authority of Scripture over men’s ideas and traditions (Matthew 15:1–9). In Mark 10:6 we have the clearest (but not the only) statement showing that Jesus was a young-earth creationist. He teaches that Adam and Eve were made at the “beginning of creation,” not billions of years after the beginning, as would be the case if the universe were really billions of years old. So, if Jesus was a young-earth creationist, then how can His faithful followers have any other view?

 

[JackH]

The issue is not old earth vs young earth but this: Can fallible, sinful man be in authority over the Word of God?

A “young-Earth” view admittedly receives the scoffing from a majority of the scientists. But Paul warned us in 1 Corinthians 8:2 (KJV), “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.” Compared to what God knows, we know next to nothing! This is why we should be so careful to let God speak to us through His Word, and not try to impose our ideas on God’s Word.

It’s also interesting to note that this verse is found in the same passage where Paul warns that “knowledge puffeth up.” Academic pride is found throughout our culture.

Therefore, many Christian leaders would rather believe the world’s fallible academics, than the simple clear words of the Bible.

Once you have told people to accept man’s dating methods, and thus should not take the first chapters of Genesis as they are written, you have effectively undermined the Bible. Young people leave the Christian faith in droves when you allow this to happen without giving an answer they can understand. An answer that can be found in the Bible.

Jesus was a young-earth creationist. Jesus consistently treated the miracle accounts of the Old Testament as straightforward, truthful, historical accounts (e.g., creation of Adam, Noah and the Flood, Lot and his wife in Sodom, Moses and the manna, and Jonah in the fish). He continually affirmed the authority of Scripture over men’s ideas and traditions (Matthew 15:1–9). In Mark 10:6 we have the clearest (but not the only) statement showing that Jesus was a young-earth creationist. He teaches that Adam and Eve were made at the “beginning of creation,” not billions of years after the beginning, as would be the case if the universe were really billions of years old. So, if Jesus was a young-earth creationist, then how can His faithful followers have any other view?

And you thought that all up on your own?

Of course not. You copy and pasted most of it from the Answers in Genesis website.

I don't think any of you YECs have an original thought of your own. You copy and paste or paraphrase from YEC sites like Answers in Genesis.

 

[Esanta]

The issue is not old earth vs young earth but this: Can fallible, sinful man be in authority over the Word of God?

A “young-Earth” view admittedly receives the scoffing from a majority of the scientists. But Paul warned us in 1 Corinthians 8:2 (KJV), “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.” Compared to what God knows, we know next to nothing! This is why we should be so careful to let God speak to us through His Word, and not try to impose our ideas on God’s Word.

It’s also interesting to note that this verse is found in the same passage where Paul warns that “knowledge puffeth up.” Academic pride is found throughout our culture.

Therefore, many Christian leaders would rather believe the world’s fallible academics, than the simple clear words of the Bible.

Once you have told people to accept man’s dating methods, and thus should not take the first chapters of Genesis as they are written, you have effectively undermined the Bible. Young people leave the Christian faith in droves when you allow this to happen without giving an answer they can understand. An answer that can be found in the Bible.

Jesus was a young-earth creationist. Jesus consistently treated the miracle accounts of the Old Testament as straightforward, truthful, historical accounts (e.g., creation of Adam, Noah and the Flood, Lot and his wife in Sodom, Moses and the manna, and Jonah in the fish). He continually affirmed the authority of Scripture over men’s ideas and traditions (Matthew 15:1–9). In Mark 10:6 we have the clearest (but not the only) statement showing that Jesus was a young-earth creationist. He teaches that Adam and Eve were made at the “beginning of creation,” not billions of years after the beginning, as would be the case if the universe were really billions of years old. So, if Jesus was a young-earth creationist, then how can His faithful followers have any other view?

I would argue Jesus knew full well they were allegorical stories. Scientific dating methods aren't just 'chosen' by people as some matter of belief, they are backed up by science, fact, testable experiment, verifiable mathematics and proof.

Besides, what Paul says was said by Socrates (also a Greek) hundreds of years before Paul. 'I know that I know nothing'. Don't you actually realize that institutionalized, popular Christianity borrows from the same academic-types you slate?

There's truth in lots of places outside the bible.

 

[JackH]

evolution is Satanic in origin and must be tackled everywhere it is encountered!!

The above is the brilliant (cough) statement that ended your first post that started this thread.

What evidence are you claiming for that statement?

I mean, I could guess, but I want to hear it from you. Or anybody else who agrees with you.

 

[JackH]

Anyone who professes faith in Jesus should oppose the satanic belief in evolution.

I ask you the same question I just asked Pottyone.

 

[StoneThrower]

The above is the brilliant (cough) statement that ended your first post that started this thread.

What evidence are you claiming for that statement?

I mean, I could guess, but I want to hear it from you. Or anybody else who agrees with you.

This wont meet you burden of proof or evidence, but the church never bought into that and then not wanting to look bad in the eyes of culture started to in 1876, men like BB Warfield and Thomas Chalmers and for a time by Charles Hodge bought into the gap theory. Prior to that a literal 6 days was the common belief.

So the Earth looks old, is it really to hard to believe that God created plants mature so Adam and Eve wont starve? Is it to hard to believe that Adam and Eve were created mature probably in their 30's. Why must Gods word be compromised, to appease those that don't understand his ways?

if I sound like a space cadet believing in a young earth, to God be the glory! This isn't my home and I don't want to look, think, or act like the world. I want to be noticeably different. Call me a fool, but my foundation of Gods word and particularly Genesis is going to crumble.

 

[Shubee]

...evolution is Satanic in origin and must be tackled everywhere it is encountered!!

I assume you mean progressive evolution. In that case, I agree.

 

[Hoffco]

This wont meet you burden of proof or evidence, but the church never bought into that and then not wanting to look bad in the eyes of culture started to in 1876, men like BB Warfield and Thomas Chalmers and for a time by Charles Hodge bought into the gap theory. Prior to that a literal 6 days was the common belief.

So the Earth looks old, is it really to hard to believe that God created plants mature so Adam and Eve wont starve? Is it to hard to believe that Adam and Eve were created mature probably in their 30's. Why must Gods word be compromised, to appease those that don't understand his ways?

if I sound like a space cadet believing in a young earth, to God be the glory! This isn't my home and I don't want to look, think, or act like the world. I want to be noticeably different. Call me a fool, but my foundation of Gods word and particularly Genesis is going to crumble.

Your words deserve to be repeated, SO, there they are. I am like you, I remember reading those Deep theologians in the Reformed Episcopal Sem., which I graduated from in 1969, and having great weariness of mind, as they went on and on, saying very little but a lot of logical argumentation. Sorry, to say that a great Bible teacher like R.C.Sproul has the same mind set, when he says we must master logic to make sense of the Bible. I believe just about every doctrine of the Reformers, plus a few that they hated, as the literal Genesis acc, of creation. The five points of Calvinism are biblical ,if you add the counter part to each point. Most Calvinists give a disclaimer to each of the 5 points. There is Special Grace and there is Common Grace. There is limited atonement and there is unlimited atonement. etc. et.. And John MacArthur as great a preacher he is, still believes in the imminent return of Christ. It is surprising how great minds can get caught up in foolishness. I know my 1st. and 2nd. wives think I am foolish, when I defend the truth of the Bible as hard as I do. So be it, Love to all, Hoffco

 

[jdbear]

The powers that be lamely covered up finding soft tissue in dinosaur bones by claiming iron rich blood preserved it....for 60 million years.

 

[christianperson91]

So the Earth looks old, is it really to hard to believe that God created plants mature so Adam and Eve wont starve? Is it to hard to believe that Adam and Eve were created mature probably in their 30's. Why must Gods word be compromised, to appease those that don't understand his ways?

.

Alright lets say that God made things to look more mature. But how does that explain the "scars of the past"?

Let me explain. Even though Adam and Eve would be made with fully grown bodies, and appear mature, there would still be signs.....evidence.......that they are not normal adults. For example, they would not have memories of being a child and growing up. There should also not be any scars, or signs of wear/tear, etc (there are many ways in finding out how long someone has lived).

However when it comes to earth's history, we do seem to finds scars.....literally. Let me just use areas where impact craters are at. There is evidence that in its history, earth has been struck many times by asteroids. Leaving huge "scars" on earth's surface, and one of the reasons why this shows signs of an ancient past, is because if the earth is 6,000 thousand years old, and humanity as been here since the dawn of the world, then we would have felt the consequences of said strikes, and likely would not be here.

God making everything appear "old" also does not explain the fact that stars/suns across the universe are at various stages, some are younger then others, some are older, and some are even dying.

If God made the world look old, but it is really only 6,000 years old, how does that explain the fact that we can see stars that are farther then then 6,000 light years away?

I agree that if God wanted to, he could make things look older then what they already are, however that explanation does not make since with the fact that there are "scars" or "recordings" within the universe/earth that show an ancient past.

Of course if God wanted to, he could have put "scars" on Adam and Eve, give them memories of a life that never happened, to a point that not only would they appear as adults, but all evidence/techniques used on them would give us the conclusion that they are really natural Adults who started as a baby and grew up, though God would know the truth.

In fact God could make it so that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and everything that points to an older universe/earth, even the "scars", are all intentionally put there for reasons.

Maybe the world was created last thursday, and everything about the past, even the things older and younger then 6,000 years, even our memories....are just fabrications

God would certainly have the power to do that, though I don't think he did because I don't believe God is trying to deceive us.

 

[Angela53510]

Jesus Christ.

And you thought that all up on your own?

Of course not. You copy and pasted most of it from the Answers in Genesis website.

I don't think any of you YECs have an original thought of your own. You copy and paste or paraphrase from YEC sites like Answers in Genesis.

You obviously never read the link!

However, my biggest objection to this post is that it seems like your first statement was taking the Lord's name in vain. Plus someone else also mentioned you doing this.

Now, I prefer to see an atheist in the forum. I would hope that one day, some of the words spoken, the scriptures cited would come back to you and you would realize that God is real, and that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. That is my testimony! I was a science student in a secular university when I started seeing holes in the theory of evolution, at least as taught to undergrads.

So this is a warning, if I see you taking the name of Jesus Christ in vain, I will report you. Try and be civil, and we can discuss this like people who believe in truth, and even kindness. And agree to disagree if necessary.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Alright lets say that God made things to look more mature. But how does that explain the "scars of the past"?

Let me explain. Even though Adam and Eve would be made with fully grown bodies, and appear mature, there would still be signs.....evidence.......that they are not normal adults. For example, they would not have memories of being a child and growing up. There should also not be any scars, or signs of wear/tear, etc (there are many ways in finding out how long someone has lived).

However when it comes to earth's history, we do seem to finds scars.....literally. Let me just use areas where impact craters are at. There is evidence that in its history, earth has been struck many times by asteroids. Leaving huge "scars" on earth's surface, and one of the reasons why this shows signs of an ancient past, is because if the earth is 6,000 thousand years old, and humanity as been here since the dawn of the world, then we would have felt the consequences of said strikes, and likely would not be here.

God making everything appear "old" also does not explain the fact that stars/suns across the universe are at various stages, some are younger then others, some are older, and some are even dying.

If God made the world look old, but it is really only 6,000 years old, how does that explain the fact that we can see stars that are farther then then 6,000 light years away?

I agree that if God wanted to, he could make things look older then what they already are, however that explanation does not make since with the fact that there are "scars" or "recordings" within the universe/earth that show an ancient past.

Of course if God wanted to, he could have put "scars" on Adam and Eve, give them memories of a life that never happened, to a point that not only would they appear as adults, but all evidence/techniques used on them would give us the conclusion that they are really natural Adults who started as a baby and grew up, though God would know the truth.

In fact God could make it so that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and everything that points to an older universe/earth, even the "scars", are all intentionally put there for reasons.

Maybe the world was created last thursday, and everything about the past, even the things older and younger then 6,000 years, even our memories....are just fabrications

God would certainly have the power to do that, though I don't think he did because I don't believe God is trying to deceive us.

All I can say is this.

You just limited the power that God has. And what he can do

Anytime you do this, You make God out to be flawed.

 

[christianperson91]

All I can say is this.

You just limited the power that God has. And what he can do

Anytime you do this, You make God out to be flawed.

No where have I limited God's power. I said I don't think he made things appear older then they really are, never said he could not do that. After all anything is possible with God.