Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[crossnote]

Or try this one on for size...

''Compatibilism, in contrast to Libertarian free will, teaches that people are free, but defines freedom differently. Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. Man freely makes choices, but those choices are determined by the condition of his heart and mind (i.e. his moral nature). Libertarian free will maintains that for any choice made, one could always equally have chosen otherwise, or not chosen at all.''

Worthy of consideration I suppose, however, as yet, I have not chosen to give my full attention to it.......worry not, I will surely make a choice soon...........

Don't forget to give yourself an 'atta-boy' when you do 'choose'.

 

[Atwood]

Johhny MAC says that babbies dont qualify for Gods plan of salvation, as they arent able to understand sin and turn from it so God must have a plan B for them since they dont qualify. Although this might provide comfort for a grieving mother its not in the Bible.

I don't know who Johnny MAC is. But I know that John the Baptist was regenerated in the womb before born, as he lept for Joy at the presence of the Messiah. Faith is not a matter of intellect, it is a matter of dependence or trust. So I know no reason why an infant could not trust the Lord Jesus if confronted by the Lord Jesus. We can speculate on this; but as you say, there is not sufficient revelation on what happens to babies who die in infancy if the parents are unsaved.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

to be honest. not quite sure what your trying to prove, non of what you said makes any sense as far as the conversation goes..

I am not trying to prove anything. I was demanding that SeaBass prove what he claimed. He claimed that a command implies the ability to choose. I asked him to prove that from scripture & to prove that when God commands someone to do something, that implies that person has the ability to choose the good commanded.

The Lord Jesus (God) commanded the woman at the well to go & get her husband (John 4).
It can be seen that He there commanded her to do something she could not choose to do,
for she had no husband!

In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord commands men to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Now does that prove that men could choose to obey that command?

What I am doing mostly in this conversation is asking persons who stray from the scripture to prove their theories with scripture. If someone comes up with some verse that says nothing about choosing, I recommend they go to verses that do speak on that topic.

 

[SeaBass]

Congrats Seabass on actually bringing up scripture.

Joshua ordered them to choose. Do you have some proof that they chose & chose God?
Judges says they chose idols.
The question of this thread is, do men choose God?
Further it may be asked, can men choose contrary to their nature?
Can God choose to be evil?
Could the Lord Jesus choose to sin?

Do you have some proof that men can choose to do good?



How does this verse prove that the people had the power to choose good?

The fact Joshua told them to choose implies they have choice else the verse makes no sense. "Choose" is in the imperative mood, he is commanding them to choose one way or the other. Whatever choice was made would be their OWN choice and not one forced/predetermined upon them against their will.

How does an order prove the man had choice? Where does scripture say that being ordered to choose good implies one can choose good? Men are ordered to be perfect in the Sermon on the Mount. Does that prove they can be perfect?

Deut 30:19, Why would God set before them two choices if God knew they were not able to choose between the two choices?

No those verses say no such thing.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Proof man has the choice to do good or not do good.

1 Cor 2:6-8 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul points out they would have chosen/acted differently if they had known differently.

Men choose evil in the Bible. But where does an unregenerate person ever choose to do good?
What verse says that all men have free will choice?

Prov 3:31 men are being TOLD TO NOT CHOOSE to do wrong. Makes no sense if man has no ability to choose or no ability to choose to do good.

The issue of this thread is not double-predestination. The subject is whether men choose God.



Where does scripture say that the were predestined to be believers? Where does your reference say that they had to power to choose God?

Mt 23:37 shows Calvinistic predestination is not true, that men do have free will not only to choose but can choose good or bad.

 

[Hoffco]

your joking right?

Of course they would have a choice. they may suffer severe consequences if they make the wrong choice, but they have a choice.

LOL COOL, MAN! 100% CORRECT. BUT, would Jesus say they have/had, a free will? NO WAY! Jesus said,"he who commits sin is a slave of sin" and "you can not come to me, because you are not My sheep" and "you will not come to Me, that you may have life" and "no one can come to Me, unless the Father draw him" The word "draw"=force, metaphysically="make willing" as Jesus said,"whom the Son sets free, is free in dead", this is inward, recreation, by the power of God. As the song says, "I'm so glad, Jesus set me free" are you glad for Jesus redemption POWER? Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

Does anyone wish to actually expound on passages where humans choose the good? where humans choose God?

I mean philosophical digressions on free will and babies may be interesting, but wouldn't you rather focus on what scripture says directly on choice?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

Does anyone wish to actually expound on passages where humans choose the good? where humans choose God?

I mean philosophical digressions on free will and babies may be interesting, but wouldn't you rather focus on what scripture says directly on choice?

for god so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHOEVER believes in him, will never perish but has eternal life.

Whoever means choice. Either have faith in christ and live, or reject Christ and die.

no more scripture is needed. but there are tons more.

 

[crossnote]

God is sovereign over all His creation.

Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
(Lamentations 3:37)

if i have free will, it's because God chose to create me with it.
if i have a choice, it's because God chose to set that choice before me.

neither extreme makes any sense to me - if i am absolutely free to make any choice, does God not know what i will do? why are there so many scriptures indicating God's sovereign election? but if every detail of every life is predetermined and set, why do we all have an illusory functional independence of will & action? why are there so many scriptures that encourage us to act in one way and not another, if our actions are not our choice to carry out?

light - is it a particle, or is it a wave? well it depends on how you observe it, because it's something else, something that looks like a particle and looks like a wave - something we don't fully comprehend. we know one thing though, that light shines in darkness and it energizes what it shines on.

give thanks in all circumstances
(1 Thessalonians 5:18)

if He chose me, the reason for my gratitude is obvious!
if i chose Him, what? will i thank Him that i am wise enough to seek Him and find Him without prompting?
i thank Him for first choosing to offer me that choice!

I'm not saying man has no choice by which he is held responsible and is judged. But the question is just how 'free' that is in the light of our fallen nature and our slavery to sin, satan and the flesh. (Obviously in reference to the unregenerate)..
Or we can ask, 'is the will of the unsaved just as free as the unsaved'?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

I am not trying to prove anything. I was demanding that SeaBass prove what he claimed. He claimed that a command implies the ability to choose. I asked him to prove that from scripture & to prove that when God commands someone to do something, that implies that person has the ability to choose the good commanded.

The Lord Jesus (God) commanded the woman at the well to go & get her husband (John 4).
It can be seen that He there commanded her to do something she could not choose to do,
for she had no husband!

It was a test not a command which is what I said when it did not make sense.

In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord commands men to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Now does that prove that men could choose to obey that command?

Perfect is a poor translation. the word means mature or complete. And yes men can chose to grow in Christ and be mature, or remain babes in Christ.

What I am doing mostly in this conversation is asking persons who stray from the scripture to prove their theories with scripture. If someone comes up with some verse that says nothing about choosing, I recommend they go to verses that do speak on that topic.

and again, your argument is flawed. and I do not see where it helps. there would be far better ways to prove ouor poin is all I am saying.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

Does anyone wish to actually expound on passages where humans choose the good? where humans choose God?

I mean philosophical digressions on free will and babies may be interesting, but wouldn't you rather focus on what scripture says directly on choice?

Those in Acts 2 that obeyed Peter's words of verse 38 choose God.

Those Gentiles in Acts 10 that chose to obey Peter' command of verse 47,48 choose God.

In the conversions in Acts, those that chose to obey the gospel by choosing to believe repent, confess and baptism choose God. The jailer was commanded to believe, did he choose God? Yes as seen by his repentance in washing their stripes and being baptized.

 

[Atwood]

The fact Joshua told them to choose implies they have choice else the verse makes no sense. "Choose" is in the imperative mood, he is commanding them to choose one way or the other. Whatever choice was made would be their OWN choice and not one forced/predetermined upon them against their will.

Prove it SeaBass. You give no scripture to prove your theory. You need to prove that those men had the ability to choose to serve the Lord -- it is doubtful that they did.

1 Kings 18:21, Why would God set before them two choices if God knew they were not able to choose between the two choices?

What is your proof that setting before someone 2 alternatives proves they have the abiiity to choose the good? to choose God?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Proof man has the choice to do good or not do good.

Where does James say they have the ability to choose good? Prove it.
If men sin by omission, how does that prove they had the ability to choose God?

1 Cor 2:6-8 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul points out they would have chosen/acted differently if they had known differently.

Where does this passage prove that men have the ability to choose good?
Do the princes of this world [demonic beings] have the ability to choose good?
Prove that the Princes of the world would not have in selfish self-interest given more knowledge.

Prove 3:31 men are being TOLD TO NOT CHOOSE to do wrong. Makes no sense if man has no ability to choose or no ability to choose to do good.

How does being ordered to choose good, imply men can choose good? Where does scripture say it?
Does the Lord ordering the woman at the well go get her husband prove she could have chosen to do it?

Mt 23:37 shows Calvinistic predestination is not true, that men do have free will not only to choose but can choose good or bad.

No it does not.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

Those in Acts 2 that obeyed Peter's words of verse 38 choose God.

Those Gentiles in Acts 10 that chose to obey Peter' command of verse 47,48 choose God.

Prove it. Where does scripture say that?

In the conversions in Acts, those that chose to obey the gospel by choosing to believe repent, confess and baptism choose God. The jailer was commanded to believe, did he choose God? Yes as seen by his repentance in washing their stripes and being baptized.

Prove that the commandment itself implies the ability to choose to obey it.
Prove that believing was a choice.
Where does "choose" or choice occur in that story?

 

[SeaBass]

Prove it SeaBass. You give no scripture to prove your theory. You need to prove that those men had the ability to choose to serve the Lord -- it is doubtful that they did.

I did prove it. Prove otherwise. Give a logical explanation of why Joshua would command them to make a choice between two options if they could not.

What is your proof that setting before someone 2 alternatives proves they have the abiiity to choose the good? to choose God?

Why would God give them two options (life or death) knowing they could not choose between the two. Why didn't God go ahead and force death upon them knowing they could not choose life? Prove otherwise.

Where does James say they have the ability to choose good? Prove it.
If men sin by omission, how does that prove they had the ability to choose God?

A person knows to do good but chooses not to good shows men have choice. Prove otherwise.

Where does this passage prove that men have the ability to choose good?
Do the princes of this world [demonic beings] have the ability to choose good?
Prove that the Princes of the world would not have in selfish self-interest given more knowledge.

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

It's right there in front of you. Had they known the Jesus was the Christ, Paul said they would have chosen differently and not crucified Jesus. Prove otherwise.

How does being ordered to choose good, imply men can choose good? Where does scripture say it?
Does the Lord ordering the woman at the well go get her husband prove she could have chosen to do it?

Senseless to command men to do something they possibly cannot do. The command implies that the person being commanded has both AIBLTIY and RESPONSIBILITY to follow the command. Prove otherwise,

No it does not.

Prove otherwise.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

It was a test not a command which is what I said when it did not make sense.

It was a command in the imperative mood: ὕπαγε φώνησον.3 imperative verbs, commands:

Ὕπαγε [go!] φώνησον [call!] τὸν ἄνδρα σου καὶ ἐλθὲ [come!]


I wait for some proof that a command implies one can choose to obey it.

Perfect is a poor translation. the word means mature or complete. And yes men can chose to grow in Christ and be mature, or remain babes in Christ.

No, perfect is a good translation, because the command is to be perfect as God the Father is perfect. The Father is the comparison.
Do you really believe men can obey that one?

and again, your argument is flawed. and I do not see where it helps. there would be far better ways to prove ouor poin is all I am saying.

I am really not arguing a point so much as demanding proof from those who claim that an imperative implies ability to choose. That is the wrong approach to this thread.

The right approach is the exegesis of passages that actually speak of choosing, instead of trying to infer something from the fact that the imperative mode exists in Greek.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

Prove it. Where does scripture say that?



Prove that the commandment itself implies the ability to choose to obey it.
Prove that believing was a choice.
Where does "choose" or choice occur in that story?

How is obeying a command given by God through Peter NOT choosing God? Prove otherwise.

 

[Atwood]

I did prove it. Prove otherwise. Give a logical explanation of why Joshua would command them to make a choice between two options if they could not.

It is not for me to make a logical explanation; it is for you to prove that the mere commandment to choose proves that the recipients had the ability to choose the good. I wait for your proof of that or a retraction.

Why would God give them two options (life or death) knowing they could not choose between the two. Why didn't God go ahead and force death upon them knowing they could not choose life? Prove otherwise.

If I make a claim, feel free to ask for proof. But this is your claim, not mine. You need to prove that giving 2 options means they could choose the good option. Prove that evil men can make good choices.

A person knows to do good but chooses not to good shows men have choice. Prove otherwise.

You are making the assertions, not I. So I have nothing to prove. Prove that if a person knows to do good but choose not to do good that prove they could have chosen the good. Prove it or retract.

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known

it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

It's right there in front of you. Had they known the Jesus was the Christ, Paul said they would have chosen differently and not crucified Jesus. Prove otherwise.

You are taking a passage where "choose" does not occur. You are making the claims, not I. So you need to prove that your reference indicates an ability to choose the good. Prove that demons can choose the good.

Senseless to command men to do something they possibly cannot do. The command implies that the person being commanded has both AIBLTIY and RESPONSIBILITY to follow the command.

Prove that it is senseless. Prove that the Lord Jesus gave a senseless command to the woman at the well to go & call her husband. I have nothing to prove in this thread, since all I am going is demanding proof of you for your claims. Prove or retract

 

[Atwood]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

How is obeying a command given by God through Peter NOT choosing God? Prove otherwise.

I don't know what command through Peter you have in mind. IN Acts 16 the prophet is Paul.

I don't have to prove a thing. It is you who need to prove your claims. If I make an assertion, feel free to backquote it and ask for proof. Quote where the word choose occurs, where man chooses God. Prove your theory.

Prove that the commandment itself implies the ability to choose to obey it.
Prove that believing was a choice.
Where does "choose" or choice occur in that story?

Prove it or retract.

 

[secularhermit]

i didn't choose to exist.

True!
And each time we have wanted to die or to live, the decision is far from us, too. All depends on God´s will, at the end of each day.

 

[oldthennew]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing,
therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.'

When God sets before you choices, HE understands that you have the
capability to make a choice, it is every day LIFE, in the simplest form,
(either you can CHOOSE to eat of the 'tree of good and evil'
or you can 'refuse'.



[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"].








[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Jason0047]

Depends,

unbelief is a greater sin Murder and rape can be forgiven, Unbelief never will be forgiven.

We are born in unbelief, we must change that unbelief to faith, if we have never done this, it does not matter what sin or lack of sin we have committed, we will be condemned.

and God would never force someone who does not want him to go to heaven. nor does calvin teach this.

Unbelief is included alongside a list of other sins in Revelation 21:8. In fact, whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). Meaning if you ever did something out of unbelief (or something that was not of faith) and were trusting in yourself instead of God, this is a sin of unbelief and nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that such a sin cannot be forgiven. Only blaspheming the Holy Spirit is said to be the one sin that cannot be forgiven (Which is using bad or evil language against the Holy Ghost).