Do we choose God or did He choose us?

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

"Men Choosing God" Does Not Seem Impossible

"Men Choosing God" does not seem impossible to me as I approach this question. I am willing to entertain the hypothesis that after God's grace & Spirit operates on the unregenerate man, he might choose God. But the question is not what "seems" possible to me, but what does God's Word say.

This thread has not concentrated on the relevant scripture, but on human reasoning as from some notion of "free will" or from "a command implies ability to choose to obey it." Yet no one seems to be able to establish that these tangential issues prove anything.

My experience as I recall it was that I was in my bedroom in God's presence. I turned my life over to him trusting the Lord Jesus with my life. The idea of "choice" was not on my mind. It was trusting the Lord.

That the imperative implies ability to choose to obey was has not been proven, nor any scripture quoted to establish it. In fact the attempt to insert "choose" into the sentence seems tortured to me; why not just say, "the imperative implies ability to obey"? Though that one also has not been proven to me.

I doubt that as
1) the Woman at the Well was ordered to fetch her husband (but she could not so choose);
2) men are commanded in the Sermon on the Mount to be perfect as the Father is
(that is not maturity -- God is not "mature," He didn't grow into His perfection);
and
3) OT says:
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices: but this thing I commanded them, saying, Hearken unto my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people; and walk ye in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
God commanded the entire Law to Israel, and the obedience commanded was total (keeping part is not the commandment). Yet Israel could not obey God's Law -- it was impossible for them, given their natures. And in fact they did not choose to obey.

Actually, persons are trying to import choice & choose into passages that don't have the terms. Does action imply choice? I don't know of any proof of that either. I don't conceive of men standing there, deliberating, & then doing. I think a great deal of the time, men just act without choosing; and that may be their folly. I think we shall wait a long time for any scripture to prove that "action implies choice made."

Believe is not "choose." But on belief: I would like to believe that God has given every man the ability to believe in the Lord Jesus, and that men's destinies are determined by whether or not then they believe. (This is the doctrine of common grace.) However, I don't find that in the Bible! Nonetheless, the gospel goes out to whosever; he who is willing.

Perhaps someone is going to quote a verse that actually says "choose," exegete it, and help me understand all this better.

Jason0047 · Jul 22, 2014

Well, I did forget to mention that there is apostasy which is a sin of unbelief that can't be forgiven (Hebrews 6:4-6). This is a total rejection of Jesus Christ and the faith after having believed and tasted of the Heavenly gifts of the Spirit. This type of rejection of God cannot be forgiven. Yeah, but what about Peter? Did he not deny the Lord three times? Yes, but Peter did not have the Holy Spirit yet when he rejected the Lord, though.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

oldthennew said:

WELL OLD-NEW,

It is a good verse on topic. But your explanation does not appear to be demanded by the text.
For example, the text does not say, "He understands that you have the capability to make a choice" for good.
And the word choose does not occur in the Garden of Eden story, nor are the unsaved innocent like Adam was.

Now if you have proof that an imperative to choose life implies that the recipient has the ability to choose life,
please post that proof.

It is easy to show from scripture that an imperative does not imply ability to choose good or to choose God. (Woman at well, the entire law, the command to be pefect).

What do you think of your verse? Did the recipients choose life? Or did they choose idols? Can you prove ability to choose good from a passage which does not say they chose good?

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

From where did this come on the issue of choosing? Does Heb have the word choose?

This is the common error that persons make of not quoting through Heb 6:9 where the passage is explained as that the apostates of 4-8 were never saved. This is consistent with 1 John 2, where apostasy proves never part of the Body of Christ & the declaration is made that those in the Body of Christ stay there.

For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

Yes, Peter had received the Holy Spirit. John says so before the arrest of Christ. Moreover, Christ prayed for Peter that Peter's faith would not fail -- and Peter's trust in Christ as Savior never did fail; Peter like any Christian temporarily stopped trusting Christ in a concrete temporary situation of life, as when he walked on water & began to sink.

Billyd · Jul 22, 2014

Maybe this will help your arguments.

God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the Garden with one choice (He told them not to eat of the fruit of just one tree). Did God know that they were going to eat of that fruit? If he did know, why did he wait over 4000 years to provide a fail safe means of achieving eternal security? Resolve this and you will have your answer.

I would also like to ask "Who in this discussion will declare that he/she a Calvinist?" I'm not, but I believe that he influence all of us to some extent. I think that his greatest contribution is that he his works encouraged us to study the scripture in the depth that we do.

posthuman · Jul 22, 2014

we love because He first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)

do we choose because He first chose us?

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Well Jason, I got a correction to your POV on the blasphemy;
I received the news that the blasphemy was disagreeing with Eastern Orthodox tradition.
Thus I have been sent to the Lake of Fire with an unpardonable sin.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

posthuman said:

Posthum:

Have you ever thought of your relationship as choosing the Lord?

When I was saved I did not think in such terms, but I trusted the Savior with my life.

I really don't think there is much if anything in scripture about men actually choosing the Lord.
Mary of Bethany (after saved) did choose the better thing of sitting at the Lord's feet, giving Him & His words primary attention, as opposed to cooking in the kitchen (or the like).

So maybe I should think more in terms of choosing.

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

Billyd said:

Choosing the whole 9 yards? Would my choice be predestined?
Are some predestinated to be Calvinists?
the whole reformed theology? infant baptism & all?

We could declare ourselves on the TULIP, as being a 1-5 point Calvinist.
I think that Norman Geisler is a 1 pointer (P only).
Thiessen's Theology is a 2 pointer (T & P).
Chafer was 4 pointer (all but the L = limited atonement).

I don't think that bringing the term "Calvinist" helps the discussion.
BTW, it has been disputed that Calvin himself was a 5 point Calvinist!

Then one can proceed to declare oneself on Supralapsarian, Infralapsarian, and LapDogarian;
single & double predestination, etc.

I had rather focus on what scripture says about choosing here.

Have you come out of the closet? LOL.

posthuman · Jul 22, 2014

Atwood said:

i've only ever thought i had a choice in terms of resisting His voice or turning my face towards it. not that i could cause Him to call for me - i know He first called me.

i used to try to mold myself into obedience by the force of my will. (FAIL)
now, i pray to God to mold me in the form of His will. i pray He make me like clay in His hands. i try not to 'choose' my way, but to follow His 'choice' (do i choose to be pre-purposed?). this seems to have more functional success, and gives me much more cause for joy and gratitude!

eternally-gratefull · Jul 22, 2014

Jason0047 said:

I am talking the gospel.

if you do not trust the gospel (which is taught by the HS) this sin will never be forgiven.

you have till you die in this life to repent. or stay in a state of unbelief.

all other sins can be forgiven.. but only through faith in christ and the gospel.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 22, 2014

as far as chosing goes lets look at it like this.

5 men are in danger, they will die if they are not rescued (basically they are dead already and need saved)

Someone comes along and offers to save them.

He offers the same gift to all.

1 outright rejects the offer. Says the person is not real, it is just a figmant of their imagination.

2 decide they would rather trust themselves, and continue to try to get out of their situation.

2 Decide to have faith in the savior. and recieve his gift of salvation.

in the end, the one who did not believe the savior died.

the two who tried to save themselves kept going until it was too late, then they got angry and ended up blaming the savior for not saving them anyway, (they still refused to acknowledge their doubt, and trust of self.)

the other two were saved, and ended up helping to save others.

the same offer was offered to all men. 3 rejected due to love of self more than becoming humble and admitting they were in danger.

2 were saved totally out of their faith, they did NOTHING to save themselves.

now. lets put the twist of God.

God is the savior, he knows the heart of all 5 men, and who will reject and who will accept.

he lets the 3 who reject know they are in danger, But they reject, so he is no longer obligated to save them.

the other two. He lets them know also. They fight him at first (like all men do) but he keeps trying, because he knew they will accept his gracious gift.

No one can take credit for anything but God. God gets all the glory. He defeats the lie of satan, because he did not chose some, and reject others, He made the same offer to all.

now comes the big revelation.

God knew this whole senerio before all 5 men were even born. And chose to save the two before they were even born (foreknowledge)

posthuman · Jul 22, 2014

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying,
“Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
He said, “Go and tell this people:

‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;

be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

(Isaiah 6:8-10)

peacefulbeliever · Jul 22, 2014

Well . . . beyond my better judgment I am going to jump in with both feet!

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
John 6:44a No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: . . . .

One hears the word and through the word, God draws an individual to himself.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

One hears the word, God draws, one either believe or we don't - it takes a choice to believe or not to believe.

When someone believes - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. John 1:12 They become the sons/daughters of God

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. . . . God knows beforehand the decision an individual will make - when the individual believes in the only begotten Son of God - it is predestined that that individual will be conformed to the image of his Son
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called (through hearing the word of God and believing): and whom he called, them he also justified (one is justified by faith) and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Because one choses to believe in the only begotten Son; they are promised everlasting life and so will be glorified in due time.)

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . . Again, because of our faith in Jesus Christ; it is predestined that we will be "adopted" as sons/daughters of God which is part of his plan, i.e. will.

Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Through our faith in Christ it is predestined according to God's will that one has obtained an inheritance to the praise of God's glory for those who trusted in Christ.

To gain anything from God - it is up to an individual to believe in SOMETHING and that SOMETHING is His Son, Jesus Christ.

It is possible to resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) but through God's great grace and mercy He still pursues that individual because His desire is for all to be saved.

That is just my take on the whole thing . . . . I just don't can't picture God as seated upon his throne with his figure pointing and counting "enny menny minny moe - your saved" - "enny menny minny moe your lost" Why would there have to be any judgment at all because all have either been "judged" saved or lost.

And BTW - Jacob and Esau are nations not individuals. Genesis 25:22,23 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people, shall be stronger thatn the other perople; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Billyd · Jul 22, 2014

Atwood said:

No. I've been here all along. I'm a little slow nowadays, so I only comment when I see the conversation really going nowhere. I used it as a wake up call. I believe that there is a little Calvin in every Christian, whether we admit it or not. I also agree that Calvin was probably not a 5 point Calvinist.

Sometimes we can over analyze the scripture. A wise old preacher, who has long sin gone on to be with the Lord, told me to always study the scripture on three levels and to precede each of them with a one-on-one (prayer) with God. The first level is an in depth word by word analysis of the scripture and ALL related passages. The next level is its relationship to man. The final level is its relationship to me.

Back to the fist part of my comment. If we start with the creation, man has always had a choice when it comes to God. That's is indisputable. I also believe that He fully knew that man would make the wrong choice. He had already created a plan "B" (man would surely die). From that point on, He provide man with a choice to follow Him or not.

Here's where the answer to the question "Do we choose God, or Did he choose us?". I propose that He selected those who He would provide the choice to (His People). When he provided Salvation through Jesus Christ, He provided it for the world "John 3:16", but He left a large part of the world out, because they never heard of Salvation or Jesus Christ. Those who know, have a choice (accept or reject). When I look at the things that happened from creation to the cross, I know that God choose me because He provided me the opportunity to be saved. I chose to be saved. Did He know that from the beginning? All I can say is that Jesus said "the very hairs of your head are all numbered", why wouldn't He know what I would do?

I'll go back to the sidelines for a while. God Bless.

posthuman · Jul 22, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . . Again, because of our faith in Jesus Christ; it is predestined that we will be "adopted" as sons/daughters of God which is part of his plan, i.e. will.

Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Through our faith in Christ it is predestined according to God's will that one has obtained an inheritance to the praise of God's glory for those who trusted in Christ.

only the Master of the estate can choose who to leave an inheritance to;
no one can choose to be an heir, but anyone can reject a gift and refuse to accept it.

Inquisitor · Jul 22, 2014

You have been given the truth. You care not for it. You have rebelled against it in your heart and mind. You do not know Greek, have not studied Greek and think that by buying a couple of tools that you like you can make a case on a language you in which you are incompetent.
Rather than learning and understanding what was placed in front of you, you continue to lie to yourselves and others.
I have gone well past my first and second admonition. Turn from the lies before you come to judgement. Followers of Calvin and any other demonic aberration of the the truth are described below as is the reason I'm leaving the festering, foaming, minds of those who hate the truth to be bitten and devoured of themselves.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himsel

You have no love of the truth. I will not monitor your responses. Be content in the darkness you call light.

Hoffco · Jul 22, 2014

What studies I had in Northeastern Bible institute, College, BA, in Bible, N.J.. AND Reformed Episcopal Seminary, Philadelphia, DEP. 1969; has put me in a good position to interpret the Bible. I have forgotten most of the Greek and Hebrew, but I trust the NASB and the NKJB so I have no trouble of knowing the true meaning of 99% of the Bible. I know from college experience with different teachers on both sides of the fence of a issue, that some teachers were twisting the verses their own way, or just ignorant of the issue. SO, I know I can read the NKJB and get the correct meaning and as I relate all the verses together, I can see what teachers was right. I know when I read Rom. 6:22 , the first two verbs are passive. "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God," ( I was passive, Jesus set me free and enslaved me to God) The next verb is active, "you have your fruit to holiness," ( I am active in a holy life). The result is: "and the end, everlasting life." I gain everlasting life as I live holy, because of the free gift of the new birth which MADE me a righteous living person. 23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Love to all, Hoffco, Doug

Atwood · Jul 22, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

Do you think the following might be true? This is just a hypothetical: Once upon a time

5 billion men are in danger, they will die if they are not rescued (basically they are dead already and need saved)

Someone comes along and offers to save them and to give them a great supper.

He offers the same gift to all: come, for all things are now ready.

1 billion outright reject the offer. Says the person is not real, it is just a figment of their imagination. Besides, we bought fields that need checking & we all enrolled in Obamacare, and must needs go out and see that our insurance is in order.

2 billion decide they would rather trust themselves, and continue to object to eternal security, going to dead churches. Moreover, they they had each bought 5 dogs & had to feed them or be charged with cruelty to animals.

2 billion yawn, & decide nothing, but watch TV and play video games. They also claim that they all had new live-in girlfriends who had to be taught how to run the Super X-Boxes.

So then the would be rescuer said to his servant,

Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor and maimed and blind and lame among the 5 billion. Go out into the highways and hedges and constrain them to come in that my house may be filled. And the servant said, Lord, that would violate their free will. The master said, if I don't violate their free will, no body at all will be rescued, since they are all a bunch of wretched ingrates. I offered them all whosoever-will rescue, & none of them would have it. Yet I will save some anyway.

So, what if He made the same offer to all, and none of them would take it by free will because their free will operated out of their sinful natures and always chose evil -- but seeing that they all were totally depraved & never going to take the offer, he saved some anyway to manifest His attribute of grace.

Could it be that the Savior knew this whole senerio before all 5 men were even born, and chose to save the few by irresistible grace?[/QUOTE]

tourist · Jul 22, 2014

Atwood said:

Do you think the following might be true? This is just a hypothetical: Once upon a time

5 billion men are in danger, they will die if they are not rescued (basically they are dead already and need saved)

Someone comes along and offers to save them and to give them a great supper.

He offers the same gift to all: come, for all things are now ready.

1 billion outright reject the offer. Says the person is not real, it is just a figment of their imagination. Besides, we bought fields that need checking & we all enrolled in Obamacare, and must needs go out and see that our insurance is in order.

2 billion decide they would rather trust themselves, and continue to object to eternal security, going to dead churches. Moreover, they they had each bought 5 dogs & had to feed them or be charged with cruelty to animals.

2 billion yawn, & decide nothing, but watch TV and play video games. They also claim that they all had new live-in girlfriends who had to be taught how to run the Super X-Boxes.

So then the would be rescuer said to his servant,

Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor and maimed and blind and lame among the 5 billion. Go out into the highways and hedges and constrain them to come in that my house may be filled. And the servant said, Lord, that would violate their free will. The master said, if I don't violate their free will, no body at all will be rescued, since they are all a bunch of wretched ingrates. I offered them all whosoever-will rescue, & none of them would have it. Yet I will save some anyway.

So, what if He made the same offer to all, and none of them would take it by free will because their free will operated out of their sinful natures and always chose evil -- but seeing that they all were totally depraved & never going to take the offer, he saved some anyway to manifest His attribute of grace.

Could it be that the Savior knew this whole senerio before all 5 men were even born, and chose to save the few by irresistible grace?

[/QUOTE]

Interesting scenario. There must come a point in one's life when it is known in their minds that a decision must be made as to what kind of future they want. They can live for themselves or God can live in them. In the scenario that you painted all will be lost. While God is love He is also a God of justice and He cannot deny His true nature.

Do we choose God or did He choose us?

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