Romans 7 man not saved.

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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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BY the way, I go out and meet people in their homes, people who have not accepted Jesus in their lives and one thing I find is that they will all confess that their lives match the Romans 7 life, and they hate it.

Alcoholics, drug addicts, depression, anger, violence etc. all hold people so that the things they want to do they do not do and the things they don't want to do they do.

So this whole only converted saved people do this is simply not true. Once you show them the law they realize that they are doomed in that situation and will confess it and will ask how they can escape it.

That is when Jesus comes into the picture and Romans 8 changes their lives. I have seen it many times. Lives totally transformed through Faith in Jesus.

The alcoholic stops drinking, the liar stops lying, the anger goes away etc.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I wonder.. I just can't see paul talking about salvation at all. I see him talking about the struggle with following God at any given point and the war the spirit has with the flesh at that same point.

its an everyday struggle. Not just a pre-salvation struggle.
I don't think he denied the christian had warfare, he would just say that wasn't Paul's purpose in that particular passage.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Christians struggle all their life, but they win because Christ is in them by Faith.

The Romans 7 man is losing not wining. He is not struggling He is losing miserably. Read it again there is no victory at all in Romans 7 not even once.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
BY the way, I go out and meet people in their homes, people who have not accepted Jesus in their lives and one thing I find is that they will all confess that their lives match the Romans 7 life, and they hate it.

Alcoholics, drug addicts, depression, anger, violence etc. all hold people so that the things they want to do they do not do and the things they don't want to do they do.

So this whole only converted saved people do this is simply not true. Once you show them the law they realize that they are doomed in that situation and will confess it and will ask how they can escape it.

That is when Jesus comes into the picture and Romans 8 changes their lives. I have seen it many times. Lives totally transformed through Faith in Jesus.

The alcoholic stops drinking, the liar stops lying, the anger goes away etc.

I preach in prisons and rehab centers and some of them are Christians who love God. But they got misdirected by preachers and took their faith off of the work of Christ (the Cross) and placed it in what they were doing. Hence the Holy Spirit pulled back and could not help them. So they sank into sin, hating it, wanting to stop but could not.

I went through this as well. It is exactly as Paul states, The thing that I will to do I do not ( this is a man that wants to do right, sinners do not have this desire) and the things that I will not to do those I do. It's called bondage, Paul say's captive, it means the same thing. You are forced to do what you don't want to do and in Pauls case and many others case it is sin.

Most cannot believe that the sin nature or Satan can force a christian to do things against their will. But, this is exactly what Paul describes and remember he is not writing to sinners but to the church of Rome.

What answer does Paul come up with? The cross, which is the answer and the reason for it. Even Christians will fail and be bound by sin and risk salvation, if their faith is not properly placed in the work of the cross. This is what Paul is saying in Romans 6,7, and 8.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Christians struggle all their life, but they win because Christ is in them by Faith.

The Romans 7 man is losing not wining. He is not struggling He is losing miserably. Read it again there is no victory at all in Romans 7 not even once.
Good point, but what do you think of this?...

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some of the same language and scenario of Rom7...also did you notice the final outcome is when...

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying ...
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to his ex Jewish brothers (or those trying to keep the Law of Moses). He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these outward Jews the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).



This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).​
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).​
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.​

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.


Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to his ex Jewish brothers (or those trying to keep the Law of Moses). He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these outward Jews the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).



This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).​
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).​
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.​

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.


Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
Does this come from a certain group's teaching or is this your own take on Rom 7?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Does this come from a certain group's teaching or is this your own take on Rom 7?
I like to study to show myself approved unto God as the Scriptures say. What I do is I pray, read the chapter, compare cross references, and read what other believers write.

The chart was made by me.
 
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Feb 7, 2013
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I am not sure what you mean?

My position is based on Scripture. Its all there to read.

I stand by what I have said, If you want to site something in particular so that I know what you are referring to please do.
The reply is to beloved SolidGround and only the second paragraph is about you, who posted 'likes' to the blunt comment SolidGround made, upon my earlier reply, without any Scripture reference at all.

So, how can anyone fully know and agree that the comment made by SolidGround to disregard mine, is just?

You agree with SolidGround who boldly comment that no believers use Romans chapter 7 at all, as an excuse and refugee for their lingering sins in them?

i was one of them and am i alone in this confession?

Sin doesn't just disappear from a believer's life or neither JESUS will perform a magic to erase all of sin in them.

After being divinely washed, sin can have a come back, if a believer's mind set is once again to the things of and walk according to the carnal/flesh. They are still Christian whose mind set is also still to the things of and walk according to the SPIRIT but in divided attention and serving only partially for the Kingdom. They are still gifted and are still witnessing to others for the Kingdom, but remain partially lost and in bondage to sin once again. They also are able to find refugee in Apostle Paul's Romans chapter 7 confession, in order to be excused and be safe and are innocent for now, for them sin is the actual culprit.

i was once a believer in this category, until i was able to be taught and see Romans chapter 8.

And also sin have no power and can fade away and be forsaken, if a believer's mind set are on the things of and walk according to the HOLY SPIRIT. In fact they do not have to find any refugee in any Scripture, in order to cover for sin, but their practices to the things of and walk according to the SPIRIT proves their faith. And they are the ones who are experiencing Scripture righteousness of GOD' Spiritual Law of life of the New Covenant of CHRIST and by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, is being fulfilled in their lives.

i am acknowledging and confessing and working out with CHRIST, in order to come back to these of spirit and life 'narrow road' once again.

If i am still an alien in my confessions, then these are only for me to work out on, as how i have been highlighted by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, about a hypocrite and a bad witnessing Christian's well being, before the judgement day to come to all and very soon.

i hope and pray in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, to the FATHER, that everyone in the family will be and is ready.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
Yes, being 'dead to the law' (Rom 7:4) how do we reconcile that with say Jer 31...

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So here we go Rom 2:15 for the unbeliever / Jer 31:33 for the believer.(in light of Rom 7:4)

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Being dead to the law does not mean the law is dead. Notice verse 4 says "Ye also" meaning we should understand the previous verses. Verses 1-3 tell us that a woman who marries another while their husband is still alive will be an adulteress and comes under the condemnation of the law. But if she marry someone else after her husband dies she is not guilty. The law is still there only she is not under the condemnation of the law.

So verse 4 is saying because of Christ we are no longer under the condemnation of the law.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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Did any one mention...

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Which seems to support a continual struggle but which is handled by 'walk in the Spirit'.....although the battle continues the christian is not to walk in defeat..
 
K

Kerry

Guest
I don't think so

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When was Paul alive without the law? Answer, after he met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
When was the power of sin broken? Because it had to be broken in order for it to be revived. Answer when he met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Let's look at the next passage

And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Then verse 23

He say's that I see a law in MY members. He was definitely talking about himself and he was also talking about trying to live for God by the law and came to the conclusion "oh wretched man that I am" this is when the meaning of the cross was revealed to him and in turn showed it to us. Although it has been ignored for hundreds of years, I meant how many sermons have you heard on Romans 7. God is now bringing it back it light.

The focal point of our faith must be on the work of the cross, because the Holy Spirit will only operate in faith that is placed in the cross and not our own works. If it were own works then we would have no need of the cross.

To live victoriously we need the Holy Spirit and the only to have the Holy Spirit is by faith in the work of the cross.

It is not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Did any one mention...

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Which seems to support a continual struggle but which is handled by 'walk in the Spirit'.....although the battle continues the christian is not to walk in defeat..
have you noticed it says walk in the spirit, and ye "shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh".

So the one who walks according to the spirit does not do the lust of the flesh.

Then notice that he says the Flesh is against the spirit and that they are contrary to each other. then notice:

"so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

tell me who does this describe the Romans 7 man or the Romans 8? clearly the Romans 7. but don't forget what he says next:

"but" but what? "Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. "

notice those who are of the spirit are not under the law. this means then being of the flesh is under the law.

Was Romans 7 man walking in the Spirit or the flesh?

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Carnal means fleshly, of the flesh.

The Romans 7 man does not walk according to the Spirit but according to the Flesh which according to Galatians puts the flesh under the law. thus not of Faith under Grace.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Being dead to the law does not mean the law is dead. Notice verse 4 says "Ye also" meaning we should understand the previous verses. Verses 1-3 tell us that a woman who marries another while their husband is still alive will be an adulteress and comes under the condemnation of the law. But if she marry someone else after her husband dies she is not guilty. The law is still there only she is not under the condemnation of the law.

So verse 4 is saying because of Christ we are no longer under the condemnation of the law.
What a screen name, Laodicea!

Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.
verse 4 does not say we are no longer under the condemnation of the law, but that we are not married to the law. Indeed the law did not die there, but the spouse of the law died. By being joined to Christ (in the Church, the Body of Christ) by spirit baptism (1 Cor 12:13), we are joined to Christ's death -- thus we died. It does seem to mix metaphors. It is our death (co-crucifixion with Christ) that severs any marriage to the Law. Yet while the co-crucifixion renders the believer dead to the Law, he is not dead to Christ.

One thing is clear in these verses, the text speaks of a believer in Christ, not an unsaved Pharisee.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Being dead to the law does not mean the law is dead. Notice verse 4 says "Ye also" meaning we should understand the previous verses. Verses 1-3 tell us that a woman who marries another while their husband is still alive will be an adulteress and comes under the condemnation of the law. But if she marry someone else after her husband dies she is not guilty. The law is still there only she is not under the condemnation of the law.

So verse 4 is saying because of Christ we are no longer under the condemnation of the law.

Romans 7:4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Nope, we are dead to the law that we may now bear fruit unto God through a new and living way. It goes beyond 'no condemnation' to a newness and fruitful walk before God.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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The reply is to beloved SolidGround and only the second paragraph is about you, who posted 'likes' . . . .
Perhaps your native language is not English, as I don't find a lot of what you wrote cogent.

I don't see how anyone would use Rom 7 as a refuge. It is a nightmare which no Christian wants to go through. But we can go through it. We do sin in many things. We fail to put on Christ quite a lot. [/quote]
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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have you noticed it says walk in the spirit, and ye "shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh".

So the one who walks according to the spirit does not do the lust of the flesh.

Then notice that he says the Flesh is against the spirit and that they are contrary to each other. then notice:

"so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

tell me who does this describe the Romans 7 man or the Romans 8? clearly the Romans 7. but don't forget what he says next:

"but" but what? "Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. "

notice those who are of the spirit are not under the law. this means then being of the flesh is under the law.

Was Romans 7 man walking in the Spirit or the flesh?

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Carnal means fleshly, of the flesh.

The Romans 7 man does not walk according to the Spirit but according to the Flesh which according to Galatians puts the flesh under the law. thus not of Faith under Grace.
Yes, we are not under the law but the see-saw battle continues for us christians...at least for us normal christians...no super saint here.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Go, I see what angle your taking and I would have done the same. But, look the theme or focal point of this passage of scripture is the only way you can live for God is by placing your faith in the work of the cross and nothing else. If your faith is detoured into something else. Be it law, 40 days of purpose, a Daniel fast, or cutting grass at the church or handing out water bottles when it's 400 degrees outside, or helping the poor, or providing shelter for needy children, or taking elders to the doctor, or calling the police on your neighbor who is beating his wife.

These are all good things (accept the 40 days of purpose) but don't the wicked do these as well. The only thing that separates us is the cross. Just as OT saints waited on the cross, we look to the cross. Our works are as filthy rags to God and He will not accept them. The only thing He will accept is faith in the work of His son.

If we deviate from that, we will find ourselves bound by sin. Just as Paul teaches. Many preachers ( I even heard Kennith Hagin say this, we need to get past the cross and step up to seated by the right hand of the Father) are trying to push the kingdom age into now and it is not possible. We are flesh and even if walk in the Spirit. we are taunted by the flesh. That's why you can't find a perfect church.

We have been redeemed in spirit, our minds are being renewed by the Word of God (Jesus). But our bodies have not yet been redeemed. The price has been paid, but the transaction is not complete and will only be completed at the rapture.