Romans 7 man not saved.
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Good post, solid.
Actually no obedience can be done just by command, as God's commandments can even rouse sin. However, it is possible to love (agapao) on command if God's power is added in, and I think that may illustrate the diff with phileo. I think that many Christian men love by command their wives or their bosses (could be the same one? LOL), who may be not so lovable. But they have resolved that by God's grace & power, they will love that woman/boss seek her best in every way. Love is the fruit of the Spirit, not the result of human effort to perform a command. And yes the love of Christ constrains us.
Actually no obedience can be done just by command, as God's commandments can even rouse sin. However, it is possible to love (agapao) on command if God's power is added in, and I think that may illustrate the diff with phileo. I think that many Christian men love by command their wives or their bosses (could be the same one? LOL), who may be not so lovable. But they have resolved that by God's grace & power, they will love that woman/boss seek her best in every way. Love is the fruit of the Spirit, not the result of human effort to perform a command. And yes the love of Christ constrains us.
L
Romans 7 can be difficult, there are valid arguments for whether it is talking about a christian or not. It would be good to start at the beginning of the chapter.
Romans 7:1-3 KJV
(1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
First it is important to know who Paul is speaking to, he is speaking to those who know the law. The woman free from the law because her husband is dead does not mean the law is done away. The law is still there, but because the husband is dead she is free to marry another without coming under the condemnation of the law.
Romans 7:1-3 KJV
(1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
First it is important to know who Paul is speaking to, he is speaking to those who know the law. The woman free from the law because her husband is dead does not mean the law is done away. The law is still there, but because the husband is dead she is free to marry another without coming under the condemnation of the law.
Sadly, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST who gave us grace and truth, some of you who brag about Romans chapter 7, is only finding excuses for your own sins, still present and functioning in your lives. You have not learned to move forward and continuing by the Law of the SPIRIT of life, which has liberated you and others and me, in CHRIST, in order to further learn and practice wisely according to Romans chapter 8, avoid sin, grow up and sin no more.
JESUS said this in the Gospel(Gospels which all believers and non-believers are to welcome them for Salvation), after healing and forgiving a suffering disable person, about sin that;
"Your sins have been forgiven and see that you sin no more, or something worst may happen to you."
So, have we, as believers become ignorant and senseless to the Master's words and not acknowledge them at all? For it is clearly spoken and written in the Holy Bible for our spiritual teaching and practices blessing and gaining true liberty, which we are called and which can only be achieved according to this Scripture as written that;
1. "If/Unless you 'abide' in my word, you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free".
2. " 'Abide' in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it 'abides' in the vine, neither can you, unless you 'abide' in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. Whoever 'abides' in Me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
3. "If anyone does not 'abide' in Me he is thrown away like a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered , thrown into the fire, and burned."
4. "You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should 'Abide', so that whatever you ask the FATHER in My name, HE may give it to you."
If truly Romans chapter 7, is written that Sir Paul is confessing in present tense, then fair enough, you may be right. But let us all wake up from our slumber sleep and stay alert from now on, by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, to be build up as growing believers, to know from today onwards, that the story does go on, continuing to Romans chapter 8, confessed by the same Sir Apostle Paul himself, now in liberated Spiritual revelation to 'The Way', confessing further in future tense, the choices of workouts that awaits us ahead, to wisely choose one and work on them. And also therefore again, as the story continues, all believers who have witnessed that, Sir Apostle Paul also further gave an order to the church, to;
"Workout your Salvation in fear and trembling."
The LORD is concern for those, who are taking part of the Holy Scripture context and making excuses for their lingering sins, sadly those who remain 'lukewarm' and in 'lawlessness'. They remain in carnality and as babes in CHRIST, and are comfortable where they are and witnessing together to others, only in partial grace and truth.
Because there are, as the Spiritual story goes on, in further confession of Sir Paul to the church, for the church believers to bear witness to, that;
1. "Those who keep on sinning belongs to the devil."
2. "If you keep on sinning, can anything good come out of it."
3. "GOD hates sin."
Please do not get me wrong, for i would want to remain like you, in that comfort zone. But other parts of the Holy Scripture that i have quoted that are conflicting against being comfortable and that also cuts me, day by day in conviction, as a 'lawless' one.
As it is written;
"Accumulating trouble for yourself on judgement day."
If we truly are a family of GOD, rooted in CHRIST, then i am not alone on this and we cannot deny and picture an imaginary excess, to the FATHER's place of rest. They all only lead us and others who witnesses, to lies and deceptions, by the deceptive 'carnal/flesh', which wars against the HOLY SPIRIT, from within, inside of us and are hidden from men, as we day by day gear on a masked outfit and put on a fashion show and witnessing to them.
But, not to GOD, who knows and see and is present inside and outside of us, and who is in long-suffering, enduring and bearing our ignorant weakness and 'lawlessness', unacknowledged and have not repented. So that today onwards, one by one they may move forward in order to excel, so that their righteousness may exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
JESUS said this in the Gospel(Gospels which all believers and non-believers are to welcome them for Salvation), after healing and forgiving a suffering disable person, about sin that;
"Your sins have been forgiven and see that you sin no more, or something worst may happen to you."
So, have we, as believers become ignorant and senseless to the Master's words and not acknowledge them at all? For it is clearly spoken and written in the Holy Bible for our spiritual teaching and practices blessing and gaining true liberty, which we are called and which can only be achieved according to this Scripture as written that;
1. "If/Unless you 'abide' in my word, you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free".
2. " 'Abide' in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it 'abides' in the vine, neither can you, unless you 'abide' in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. Whoever 'abides' in Me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
3. "If anyone does not 'abide' in Me he is thrown away like a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered , thrown into the fire, and burned."
4. "You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should 'Abide', so that whatever you ask the FATHER in My name, HE may give it to you."
If truly Romans chapter 7, is written that Sir Paul is confessing in present tense, then fair enough, you may be right. But let us all wake up from our slumber sleep and stay alert from now on, by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, to be build up as growing believers, to know from today onwards, that the story does go on, continuing to Romans chapter 8, confessed by the same Sir Apostle Paul himself, now in liberated Spiritual revelation to 'The Way', confessing further in future tense, the choices of workouts that awaits us ahead, to wisely choose one and work on them. And also therefore again, as the story continues, all believers who have witnessed that, Sir Apostle Paul also further gave an order to the church, to;
"Workout your Salvation in fear and trembling."
The LORD is concern for those, who are taking part of the Holy Scripture context and making excuses for their lingering sins, sadly those who remain 'lukewarm' and in 'lawlessness'. They remain in carnality and as babes in CHRIST, and are comfortable where they are and witnessing together to others, only in partial grace and truth.
Because there are, as the Spiritual story goes on, in further confession of Sir Paul to the church, for the church believers to bear witness to, that;
1. "Those who keep on sinning belongs to the devil."
2. "If you keep on sinning, can anything good come out of it."
3. "GOD hates sin."
Please do not get me wrong, for i would want to remain like you, in that comfort zone. But other parts of the Holy Scripture that i have quoted that are conflicting against being comfortable and that also cuts me, day by day in conviction, as a 'lawless' one.
As it is written;
"Accumulating trouble for yourself on judgement day."
If we truly are a family of GOD, rooted in CHRIST, then i am not alone on this and we cannot deny and picture an imaginary excess, to the FATHER's place of rest. They all only lead us and others who witnesses, to lies and deceptions, by the deceptive 'carnal/flesh', which wars against the HOLY SPIRIT, from within, inside of us and are hidden from men, as we day by day gear on a masked outfit and put on a fashion show and witnessing to them.
But, not to GOD, who knows and see and is present inside and outside of us, and who is in long-suffering, enduring and bearing our ignorant weakness and 'lawlessness', unacknowledged and have not repented. So that today onwards, one by one they may move forward in order to excel, so that their righteousness may exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
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Why assume that these doctrines are excuses to sin?
It is not right to assume motive in a debate, unless a motive is made plain.
I do not see where this opinion is coming from,
that Christians who believe in eternal security or that we have a sin nature
are believing these things as an excuse to sin.
There is no logical connectivity,
nor has anyone on this thread presented these as an excuse to sin.
It is not right to assume motive in a debate, unless a motive is made plain.
I do not see where this opinion is coming from,
that Christians who believe in eternal security or that we have a sin nature
are believing these things as an excuse to sin.
There is no logical connectivity,
nor has anyone on this thread presented these as an excuse to sin.
Our purpose is to pursue holiness in Christ. I have never backed down on that, nor do these doctrine deviate from that purpose.
To reject that you are still in a fallen body
is like rejecting that your car is low on gas.
you'll be fine until you can't make it up a hill.
Accepting the frailty of man is a very humbling and powerful thing.
Understanding that no good comes of me, unless it is of God,
puts us in our place.
Knowing that we have weakness
is a motivator to STRIVE forward in faith,
not a reason to give up.
To reject that you are still in a fallen body
is like rejecting that your car is low on gas.
you'll be fine until you can't make it up a hill.
Accepting the frailty of man is a very humbling and powerful thing.
Understanding that no good comes of me, unless it is of God,
puts us in our place.
Knowing that we have weakness
is a motivator to STRIVE forward in faith,
not a reason to give up.
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Well, I agree with everything you have said here. But you still didn't answer the question. I'll re-word it...
Is our motivation and goal to try and sin less by keeping more of the law?
or
Is our motivation and goal to try to abide in Christ having the Holy Spirit and its fruit grown in our lives?
The reason why this motivation is so important is because one will set you free and one will cause bondage. Even though for both of these questions the goal of sinning less, or becoming perfected is the same.
And the reason why Romans 7 is about saved individuals is because even after we know what causes bondage we still like to "check" our progress to see how "well" we are doing. Woo hoo, hey look at me, just before a fall... Our progress is the same as it always has been when we try to keep the commandments. That's how we know, down here, there will never be a time when we don't need our Saviour.
A lot of people think they can just keep the law by themselves. They think that is the requirement. Buckle down and start obeying the commandments.
Paul states in Romans 7, and in most of the other epistles, that your buckling down and your own obedience has the opposite effect of what you are intending. Paul states in Romans 8, and most of the other epistles, that the Holy Spirit through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is our only hope and only way of Righteousness. And its by faith. And its not against the law. In fact the Holy Spirit establishes the law. It just looks like Love, and Peace and Joy instead of self-righteous people being able to tell you to keep this and don't eat that and do this other thing.
Is our motivation and goal to try and sin less by keeping more of the law?
or
Is our motivation and goal to try to abide in Christ having the Holy Spirit and its fruit grown in our lives?
The reason why this motivation is so important is because one will set you free and one will cause bondage. Even though for both of these questions the goal of sinning less, or becoming perfected is the same.
And the reason why Romans 7 is about saved individuals is because even after we know what causes bondage we still like to "check" our progress to see how "well" we are doing. Woo hoo, hey look at me, just before a fall... Our progress is the same as it always has been when we try to keep the commandments. That's how we know, down here, there will never be a time when we don't need our Saviour.
A lot of people think they can just keep the law by themselves. They think that is the requirement. Buckle down and start obeying the commandments.
Paul states in Romans 7, and in most of the other epistles, that your buckling down and your own obedience has the opposite effect of what you are intending. Paul states in Romans 8, and most of the other epistles, that the Holy Spirit through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is our only hope and only way of Righteousness. And its by faith. And its not against the law. In fact the Holy Spirit establishes the law. It just looks like Love, and Peace and Joy instead of self-righteous people being able to tell you to keep this and don't eat that and do this other thing.
I wasn't thinking Ezekiel but rather Romans 2:15...
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So here we go Rom 2:15 for the unbeliever / Jer 31:33 for the believer.(in light of Rom 7:4)
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
E
it can actually be turned around.
they excuse their sin by just saying sorry God. I did not mean to do it..So I can go out and do whatever I want, as long as I say sorry. Either that. Or excuse the lesser sin as not realy sin, because they are so much better than everyone else. God is not going to mess with them.
Exactly...
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
To say that Paul is NOT referring to himself here is just not the case.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
To say that Paul is NOT referring to himself here is just not the case.