Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[Atwood]

What studies I had in Northeastern Bible institute, College, BA, in Bible, N.J.. AND Reformed Episcopal Seminary, Philadelphia, DEP. 1969;

Was G. Hall Todd your homiletics professor? of Arch Street Presbyterian, across the street from where I went to school (18th & Arch). That guy would crack me up with this pompous style of preaching -- it might be all you could do to keep from falling out of the pew. I had a friend named Lew Kisenweather who must have graduated about the same time you did.

SO, I know I can read the NKJB and get the correct meaning and as I relate all the verses together,

The editor of that is Art Farstad, a friend of mine, a die-hard Majority Text man. I don't know why he had such a commitment to what is basically the Received Text.

I gain everlasting life as I live holy,

Art would never have agreed with that. 1 John 5 is clear that the believer can know his already has eternal life -- it is not gained by living holy. Neither does Romans ever say such a thing. Am I misunderstanding you? Rom 3:23 says eternal life is a free gift, not gained by living holy.

 

[Atwood]

Interesting scenario. There must come a point in one's life when it is known in their minds that a decision must be made as to what kind of future they want. They can live for themselves or God can live in them. In the scenario that you painted all will be lost. While God is love He is also a God of justice and He cannot deny His true nature.

just hypothetical. But all are not lost in my hypothetical. God's justice is met by the cross of Christ; He who died for our sins & paid for them. There is nothing unjust about grace. If everyone is a wretch, and God picks some to save, that is not unjust. If no one is willing & the Lord constrains some to be saved, that would not be unjust at all.

Just a hypothetical.

 

[Atwood]

You do not know Greek

Judging is a serious in.

I have a master's degree in Greek.

 

[Atwood]

No. I've been here all along.

I was joking that you might be a closet-Calvinist.

A wise old preacher, who has long sin gone on to be with the Lord, told me to always study the scripture on three levels and to precede each of them with a one-on-one (prayer) with God. The first level is an in depth word by word analysis of the scripture and ALL related passages. The next level is its relationship to man. The final level is its relationship to me.

How about the inductive-synthetic method; collect all verses on a topic & see how they fit together.

Back to the fist part of my comment. If we start with the creation, man has always had a choice when it comes to God.

Well Billy, did you look at the data I posted (inductive synthesis)? Actually there is very little, if anything in the Bible about man "choosing" God. It is generally the other way, God choosing men.

How about quoting some choice verses and expanding on them?

I chose to be saved.

When you were saved was "choice" in your mind? It wasn't in mine; I focused on the Savior and put my trust in Him. I never said or thought, "I am choosing You."

I'll go back to the sidelines for a while. God Bless.

I look forward to reading your posts.

 

[Atwood]

it takes a choice to believe or not to believe.

Well Peaceful, can you give some peaceful proof that one? Does the Bible ever say anything like "it takes a choice to believe"? If an elephant enters your living room, do you have a choice to believe he is there?

When I was saved and trusted Christ as my Savior, I wasn't thinking about choosing. Were you?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. . . . God knows beforehand the decision an individual will make

I don't deny that your theory is a Christian theory; it is not heresy; but I also don't know anywhere that the Bible says it. Do you have proof, or is this just a hypothesis?

when the individual believes in the only begotten Son of God - it is predestined that that individual will be conformed to the image of his Son

Now where does scripture say that?

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called (through hearing the word of God and believing): and whom he called, them he also justified (one is justified by faith) and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Because one choses to believe in the only begotten Son; they are promised everlasting life and so will be glorified in due time.)

Do you have proof for your parentheticals?
How can "calling" be through believing?
I agree that faith logically precedes justification.
Faith/believing is not in the chain, though we know it occurs.
What about the past tense of all this?
You have "will be glorified," but in the text it is past tense.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . . Again, because of our faith in Jesus Christ; it is predestined that we will be "adopted" as sons/daughters of God which is part of his plan, i.e. will.

What leads you to suppose that because of faith it is predestined? What does the pre- refer to in predestined?

That is just my take on the whole thing . . . . I just don't can't picture God as seated upon his throne with his figure pointing and counting "enny menny minny moe - your saved" - "enny menny minny moe your lost"

Such is not indicated in scripture. But so far as I know, there is no good explanation of why God chose Jacob instead of Esau. There may be an explanation, but I am unaware of it being revealed. It is clear that the choice of men is not due to anything good in them.

Why would there have to be any judgment at all because all have either been "judged" saved or lost.

The future judgments do not determine who is saved or lost. Salvation is a different topic from judgment. Works are judged. Salvation determines which judgment one goes to (e.g., Bema vs Great White Throne).

And BTW - Jacob and Esau are nations not individuals.

They were both. It is a good observation that nations are involved here, not just individuals though. How much of that we should transfer to Romans 9 is another question, as there "nations" are not mentioned per se.

Genesis 25:22,23 And the children [individuals] struggled together within her [there were not 2 nations struggling in the womb -- her womb wasn't that big]; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people, shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


It is true that this passage does not address individual salvation, but status in life.

If you want to weigh in on this, why don't you address passages where choose actually occurs?

 

[SeaBass]

It is not for me to make a logical explanation; it is for you to prove that the mere commandment to choose proves that the recipients had the ability to choose the good. I wait for your proof of that or a retraction.

Commands do imply ability and responsibility and you admit above you cannot logically explain that away. If you have no logical explanation, you have no proof otherwise.
The bible is full of examples of people choosing to good and choosing to do bad. Gen 4:7 God Himself shows Cain had the ability to choose to do well or not well.

If I make a claim, feel free to ask for proof. But this is your claim, not mine. You need to prove that giving 2 options means they could choose the good option. Prove that evil men can make good choices.

Why would they be given an option between life and death if they could not choose either? If they could not choose life why not just go ahead and give them death?

Gen 4:7 if Cain could not do well then why did God say "if thy doest well" when God would have know full well Cain could not?

Heb 11;4 Abel was one that choose to do well and there was nothing that prevented Cain from choosing to do well as Abel. Cain used his free will to choose to do evil.

You have been given proof after proof but continue to reject it while offering no proof to back up what you claim.

You are making the assertions, not I. So I have nothing to prove. Prove that if a person knows to do good but choose not to do good that prove they could have chosen the good. Prove it or retract.

My proof is the bible gives examples of those that choose to do well.
Josh 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

After telling the people to choose between God and the false God, Joshua choose good by choosing to serve the true God.

You are taking a passage where "choose" does not occur. You are making the claims, not I. So you need to prove that your reference indicates an ability to choose the good. Prove that demons can choose the good.

You argument has been weak all along, it has deteriorated into simply ignoring the facts now.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The word "choice" does not need be in the verse for it to demonstrate a choice can take place. Paul clearly demonstrates they would have acted differently had they known better. Had they known better they would have taken a different course of action and that change of action proves, implies a choice being made.

Prove that it is senseless. Prove that the Lord Jesus gave a senseless command to the woman at the well to go & call her husband. I have nothing to prove in this thread, since all I am going is demanding proof of you for your claims. Prove or retract

Prove what sense there is in commanding men to do something that man cannot do. Why would God command Noah to build the ark if it were impossible for Noah to obey it? Why command Abraham to leave land house and kindred, offer Isaac if it were impossible for him to do so?

Noah and Abraham obeying these commands shows mwn can chose to do good. That the commands imply man has ability for they both were able to obey the commands. The command inplies responsibility for men will be held accountable for his action in obeying God or not...."A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day. And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God...."
"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." Rom 14;12. What is man accountable for if he has no ability or responsiblity to obey God's commands?

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Do we choose God or did He choose us? How about Scripture on This

I don't know what command through Peter you have in mind. IN Acts 16 the prophet is Paul.

I don't have to prove a thing. It is you who need to prove your claims. If I make an assertion, feel free to backquote it and ask for proof. Quote where the word choose occurs, where man chooses God. Prove your theory.

Prove that the commandment itself implies the ability to choose to obey it.
Prove that believing was a choice.
Where does "choose" or choice occur in that story?

Prove it or retract.

God through Peter gave the command in Acts 2:38. Those that obeyed that command choose to do good in obeying God.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: "Men Choosing God" Does Not Seem Impossible

"Men Choosing God" does not seem impossible to me as I approach this question. I am willing to entertain the hypothesis that after God's grace & Spirit operates on the unregenerate man, he might choose God. But the question is not what "seems" possible to me, but what does God's Word say.

This would be putting fault/blame on the Holy Spirit when He fails to "regenerate" a man where that man could then choose God. If one tries and take all accountability and responsibility away from man and put it on the Holy Spirit, it then becomes the Holy Spirit's accountability and responsibility to regenerate man. So what accountability does man have to answer to, Rom 14:12?

That the imperative implies ability to choose to obey was has not been proven

Then give a logical, reasonable explanation as to why give a command if man has no ability or responsibility to obey it.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

only the Master of the estate can choose who to leave an inheritance to;
no one can choose to be an heir, but anyone can reject a gift and refuse to accept it.

And he did choose who to leave the inheritance to - those who believe in his only begotten Son - those who heard the word of truth and believed it - they are the heirs.

 

[SeaBass]

WELL OLD-NEW,

It is a good verse on topic. But your explanation does not appear to be demanded by the text.
For example, the text does not say, "He understands that you have the capability to make a choice" for good.
And the word choose does not occur in the Garden of Eden story, nor are the unsaved innocent like Adam was.

Now if you have proof that an imperative to choose life implies that the recipient has the ability to choose life,
please post that proof.

It is easy to show from scripture that an imperative does not imply ability to choose good or to choose God. (Woman at well, the entire law, the command to be pefect).

What do you think of your verse? Did the recipients choose life? Or did they choose idols? Can you prove ability to choose good from a passage which does not say they chose good?

Why would he then even give the choice between life and death if he knew man could not choose between the two?

Giving the choice between two options therefore implies man can choose either one.

 

[posthuman]

When you were saved was "choice" in your mind? It wasn't in mine; I focused on the Savior and put my trust in Him. I never said or thought, "I am choosing You."

hearing you put it that way -- i remember there being a sense of inevitability. that there was no other "choice" -- Jesus is THE way, and He sought me.
both in the sense that a person who had to make a life-or-death decision says "i had no choice"
and in the sense that i knew He IS Lord, and i could confess it now, or confess it later - that not 'making that choice' would be an act of willful ignorance, one which could never be anything but a facade i could wear for some finite time period.

it was more like i "relented" than "chose"

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Well Peaceful, can you give some peaceful proof that one? Does the Bible ever say anything like "it takes a choice to believe"? If an elephant enters your living room, do you have a choice to believe he is there?

When I was saved and trusted Christ as my Savior, I wasn't thinking about choosing. Were you?

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. . . . . but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - one believes or one does not believe - Are we aware that we are choosing? I would say that we were aware that we were making a decision to love God and follow Jesus.

I don't deny that your theory is a Christian theory; it is not heresy; but I also don't know anywhere that the Bible says it. Do you have proof, or is this just a hypothesis?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow . . . . God knows beforehand the decision an individual will make foreknow - have knowledge beforehand

Now where does scripture say that?

"he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. . . ." Romans 8:29 - when the individual believes in the only begotten Son of God - it is predestined that that individual will be conformed to the image of his Son

Do you have proof for your parentheticals?
How can "calling" be through believing?
I agree that faith logically precedes justification.
Faith/believing is not in the chain, though we know it occurs.
What about the past tense of all this?
You have "will be glorified," but in the text it is past tense.

God calls or draws us through his word for that is how faith begins. Faith is a noun and believing is the verb form of that noun. In order to have faith in something; you must believe in something. "them he also glorified" - we will not be glorified until we are in our resurrected bodies. Sometimes things are said in the past tense although they have not occured yet - when stated this way it means for a surety we will be glorified.

What leads you to suppose that because of faith it is predestined? What does the pre- refer to in predestined?

Because unless one believes in the only begotten Son of God - faith in Christ - they aren't predestined unto the adoption of children Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . .

Such is not indicated in scripture. But so far as I know, there is no good explanation of why God chose Jacob instead of Esau. There may be an explanation, but I am unaware of it being revealed. It is clear that the choice of men is not due to anything good in them.

The future judgments do not determine who is saved or lost. Salvation is a different topic from judgment. Works are judged. Salvation determines which judgment one goes to (e.g., Bema vs Great White Throne).

My question can still stand - Why would there have to be any judgment at all because all have either been "judged" saved or lost.

They were both. It is a good observation that nations are involved here, not just individuals though. How much of that we should transfer to Romans 9 is another question, as there "nations" are not mentioned per se.

Genesis 25:22,23 And the children [individuals] struggled together within her [there were not 2 nations struggling in the womb -- her womb wasn't that big]; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people, shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

It is true that this passage does not address individual salvation, but status in life.

If you want to weigh in on this, why don't you address passages where choose actually occurs?

Genesis 25:22,23 - symbolicly Jacob and Esau were two nations - Israel and Edom.

Scriptures should be looked at as a whole - bottom line for eternal life - ONLY those believing (v) in Christ which brings about faith in Christ - are "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son - and "predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ".

As I said - I posted what and how I thought predestination fit together FOR ME - no one else has to agree

 

[crossnote]

This faith to believe that God actually has a Son, takes ones eyes to be opened by God's Spirit, we cannot by our own will, reason or insight grasp this truth.


Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This faith to believe that God actually has a Son, takes ones eyes to be opened by God's Spirit, we cannot by our own will, reason or insight grasp this truth.


Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 10:13-15, 17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Atwood]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow . . . . God knows beforehand the decision an individual will make foreknow - have knowledge beforehand

But it is not a decision that is foreknown, it is a person. Thus, so far as I can see, this "foreknowing they would believe" is just a hypothesis, without scriptural proof.

"

he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. . . ." Romans 8:29 - when the individual believes in the only begotten Son of God - it is predestined that that individual will be conformed to the image of his Son

How do you get that out of the text? "When . . . believes . . . it is predestined" From where does believes come? That is not in the text. And from where does "is" come from (Bill Clinton)? Whom He foreknew, he predestined, past tense. Surely "pre-" goes back in time before the believer was called, and that before he was justified. "whom he predestined he called." The text has nothing like "when the individual believes."

"them he also glorified" - we will not be glorified until we are in our resurrected bodies. Sometimes things are said in the past tense although they have not occured yet - when stated this way it means for a surety we will be glorified.

Because unless one believes in the only begotten Son of God - faith in Christ - they aren't predestined unto the adoption of children Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . .

I don't see any "believes in the only begotten [mistranslation] Son of God" in Eph 1:5. How can you import that? And how can you put believing before PREdestined?

My question can still stand - Why would there have to be any judgment at all because all have either been "judged" saved or lost.

The judgments are for works, not to determine salvation. That is determined at the moment a person trusts Christ as Savior. Indeed, you are judged saved right when you believe; you are justified. If you are saved you go to the Bema, if lost to the Great White Throne Judgment. The idea that man waits for some general judgment after death where it will be determined if he is saved or not, is unscriptural.

Genesis 25:22,23 - symbolicly Jacob and Esau were two nations - Israel and Edom.

I would say that it was not merely symbolic, but actual. And it is a good insight you shared on the national aspect. It might be questioned if Esau the individual ever did serve Jacob the individual. Perhaps that is only national. I don't know that we can prove that Esau never did serve Jacob, but in the Genesis story I don't think that ever occurred.

Scriptures should be looked at as a whole - bottom line for eternal life - ONLY those believing (v) in Christ which brings about faith in Christ - are "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son - and "predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ".

Well, you can know you are predestined and elect after you believe. But I don't see how you could put PREdestined after believing. In the golden chain of Rom 8, it comes before calling & that before justification.

As I said - I posted what and how I thought predestination fit together FOR ME

Thanks for making a contribution to my understanding. However, you did not present anything to support the idea that man chooses God. You cannot infer that from believing, as there is nothing in scripture which says that believing implies choosing, so far as I know.

Perhaps you would like to address verses where choose actually occurs.

 

[Kerry]

Who chooses

Matt 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[crossnote]

Romans 10:13-15, 17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, the Word works in unison with it's Author because the natural mind cannot comprehend the things of God...

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[p_rehbein]

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow . . . . God knows beforehand the decision an individual will make foreknow - have knowledge beforehand


ATWOOD: But it is not a decision that is foreknown, it is a person. Thus, so far as I can see, this "foreknowing they would believe" is just a hypothesis, without scriptural proof.

[conjecture on your part here............] God knows our every deed, word and thought...........


My question can still stand - Why would there have to be any judgment at all because all have either been "judged" saved or lost.

ATWOOD: The judgments are for works, not to determine salvation. That is determined at the moment a person trusts Christ as Savior. Indeed, you are judged saved right when you believe; you are justified. If you are saved you go to the Bema, if lost to the Great White Throne Judgment. The idea that man waits for some general judgment after death where it will be determined if he is saved or not, is unscriptural.


Silliness............her question still stands.........since God predestined the "lost" to eternal damnation "from the beginning," the Great White Throne Judgment is of no avail.............It serves no purpose whatsoever, if predestination is truth.

Nor does judgment of works............goodness.......there is an entire world past the tip of ones nose.......sigh......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think the following might be true? This is just a hypothetical: Once upon a time​

5 billion men are in danger, they will die if they are not rescued (basically they are dead already and need saved)

Someone comes along and offers to save them and to give them a great supper.

He offers the same gift to all: come, for all things are now ready.

1 billion outright reject the offer. Says the person is not real, it is just a figment of their imagination. Besides, we bought fields that need checking & we all enrolled in Obamacare, and must needs go out and see that our insurance is in order.

2 billion decide they would rather trust themselves, and continue to object to eternal security, going to dead churches. Moreover, they they had each bought 5 dogs & had to feed them or be charged with cruelty to animals.

2 billion yawn, & decide nothing, but watch TV and play video games. They also claim that they all had new live-in girlfriends who had to be taught how to run the Super X-Boxes.

So then the would be rescuer said to his servant,

Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor and maimed and blind and lame among the 5 billion. Go out into the highways and hedges and constrain them to come in that my house may be filled. And the servant said, Lord, that would violate their free will. The master said, if I don't violate their free will, no body at all will be rescued, since they are all a bunch of wretched ingrates. I offered them all whosoever-will rescue, & none of them would have it. Yet I will save some anyway.

So, what if He made the same offer to all, and none of them would take it by free will because their free will operated out of their sinful natures and always chose evil -- but seeing that they all were totally depraved & never going to take the offer, he saved some anyway to manifest His attribute of grace.

Could it be that the Savior knew this whole senerio before all 5 men were even born, and chose to save the few by irresistible grace?

sorry my brother.

this is horrendous. I do not want to follow this God. and can not agree with this at all. he is a God who is not a God of love as he claims. A god of love would give men the freedom to chose or reject based on their own free will. If this was the case. why did God not "force" adam and Eve not to bring sin into the world in the forst place. the very fact he let this sin, and actually willed it. Shows he willingly condemns billions to hell without even giving them an opportunity to see their plight, and seek rescue.

God can still have free will of men, and still have glory. All he has to do is bring them to God conscience. (which romans 1 says he did) show them their danger, and their plight, and then show them the plan he had to rescue them. Then let them chose if they will chose him, or follow after their sinful ways.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting scenario. There must come a point in one's life when it is known in their minds that a decision must be made as to what kind of future they want. They can live for themselves or God can live in them. In the scenario that you painted all will be lost. While God is love He is also a God of justice and He cannot deny His true nature.

no he has some getting saved in here.

He just forces some against their will. And for some reason, refuses to force others, and just lets them suffer eternity in hell..

This feeds right into Satan lie in the beginning, the same lie that caused 1/3 of heaven to fall. Adam and Eve to fall, and send most of mankind to hell.