The Paranormal

[Cycel]

When I speak about the "good ol' times of atheism" (I said it more like a joke, btw, but if you want to go on a serious line, I' ll follow)...

I suspected that much. Sometimes I get a bit too serious perhaps.

I think more about those people who revolted against the catholic empire and not against God. Atheism is a philosophy that was born in west as a response to the catholic understanding of God.

I am not sure how true this is. In antiquity I doubt there was much true atheism at all. When Paul spoke of unbelievers I suspect he was really talking about pagans, Jews, or Christians who shared a perspective different from himself. Even during the Renaissance period Deism was the route most skeptics took. There is very little evidence of atheism until we come into 19th century and even then it does not seem to have become really widespread until the 20th century.

Also, atheists 'back then' (not all of them, of course) were men who used their heads a lot and their lack of belief was 'alive', by alive I mean that the question of God never left them alone. Those atheists still exists today and are not the ones that make an ideology or religion out of their lack of belief, but some of them are true seekers.

First, when you say 'back then', what era are you talking about? Second, I don't believe atheists are what you would define as seekers. I think atheists are people who have given up the search.

There is no difference between a christian with a dead faith and an atheist who starts threads on CC and says "I'm an atheist. Ask me anything."

I had to chuckle when I saw that post. Immediately I formed the opinion that we had here a young atheist who was spreading his wings for the first time. You can pick them out. However, I am not sure that is the same thing as a Christian with a dead faith. I am not even clear on what you mean by this. Do you mean an inactive Christian? What distinguishes an atheist is that they have lost belief in God.

As if atheism was not the deprivation of something, but a religion of the absence of God. The atheism of these persons doesn't come from an interior struggle, but from a laziness of the soul (which can be sometimes translated with stupidity).

Is there anyone in the media whom you have in mind when you say this?

I don’t see atheism as being like a religion in any sense. Religions are typically easily identified by their adherent’s devotion to sacred texts, set dogmas, rituals, and the worship of a transcendent beings. Atheism possess none of these trappings.

 

[crossnote]

Cycel,
Not to derail the thread but if I define religion as man's view of the afterlife/nolife then surely atheists are religious.

 

[Ella85]

Why are atheists even on this site?? I don't get it??

Or.....maybe something burning deep inside you.....you hunger for the truth!!!
Or what would be your reasoning behind coming on here? Obviously not to change a Christians mind I'm hoping?? Because that's rude and none of your business.

 

[Cycel]

Cycel,
Not to derail the thread but if I define religion as man's view of the afterlife/nolife then surely atheists are religious.

I led the way in that though, didn't I.

As I stressed before not all atheists believe in an afterlife, but virtually all Christians do. Within religions one finds sacred texts that are held up as the pillar of all knowledge regarding things spiritual. The Bible guides all Christians in matters concerning the afterlife. It is considered by most as the final word. Atheists posses nothing like that. Furthermore, for atheists, everything is open to question and investigation. Nothing is sacred. When I did believe in ghosts I was open to the possibility that I might be wrong. This is not true for those who worship God. Atheism is the very antithesis of all things spiritual and sacred. It is not religious.

 

[Cycel]

Why are atheists even on this site?? I don't get it??

You don't like atheists?

Or.....maybe something burning deep inside you.....you hunger for the truth!!!

I very much hunger for the truth and I question everything to find it, always have. That is how I happened upon this path. I hold none of my beliefs sacred.

Or what would be your reasoning behind coming on here? Obviously not to change a Christians mind I'm hoping?? Because that's rude and none of your business.

Do you believe you are right about everything then, that you have nothing to learn?

 

[Ella85]

You don't like atheists?


I very much hunger for the truth and I question everything to find it, always have. That is how I happened upon this path. I hold none of my beliefs sacred.


Do you believe you are right about everything then, that you have nothing to learn?

I never said I disliked atheists. You are still God's children, and we are taught to love EVERYONE.
To some degree your mind must be open to learning more about God yes? Or you would not be on here??????

Yes or no?

 

[Cycel]

This logic seems backward. Mathematics has nothing to do with it.

Quite right, it has noting to do with it. You've misunderstood. Go back and have another look at why I said, "Do the math." I was merely pointing out that it has been nearly four decades since I have believed in an afterlife. The other member thought erroneously that I still believed in ghosts. I do not. But not to worry. We all misread the posts of others from time to time. I've done it myself, and I think it is particularly prone to happen when there is a difference of belief. Confusion is not unexpected.

 

[nl]

...
Not to derail the thread but if I define religion as man's view of the afterlife/nolife then surely atheists are religious.

The entymology of the word ‘religion’ lies in the Latin word ligare, to bind.

Religion is that which "binds" and directs our mind, will and emotion in the expression of identity and purpose and hope. Religion is where we get our sense of obligation and duty. In modern parlance, religion shapes our worldview.

Abraham is the founder of Judeo-Christian faith and he sets a model of binding his conduct and setting aside his native homeland near modern Iraq, Isaac his son, and his own ambitions to do what he understood to be the ordained Will of God. Abraham's religious faith bound him to a series of actions.

When we believe that: Jesus is LORD, this binds us to appropriate responses to that belief.

 

[Cycel]

I never said I disliked atheists. You are still God's children, and we are taught to love EVERYONE.

Yes, I know. Love the sinner, but hate the sin. However, I couldn't help but get the sense you didn't really want me here.

When you wrote, “Why are atheists even on this site?? I don't get it??” Were you simply asking what draws atheists to a Christian forum or were you expressing distaste at the presence of an atheist?

Just curious.

 

[Ella85]

Yes, I know. Love the sinner, but hate the sin. However, I couldn't help but get the sense you didn't really want me here.

When you wrote, “Why are atheists even on this site?? I don't get it??” Were you simply asking what draws atheists to a Christian forum or were you expressing distaste at the presence of an atheist?

Just curious.

I want to know.....your purpose.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

I want to know.....your purpose.

To pass time because he suddenly got bored of atheism?

@cycel: Why are you an atheist anyway?

 

[nl]

Yes, I know. Love the sinner, but hate the sin. However, I couldn't help but get the sense you didn't really want me here.

When you wrote, “Why are atheists even on this site?? I don't get it??” Were you simply asking what draws atheists to a Christian forum or were you expressing distaste at the presence of an atheist?

Just curious.

Some Christians seem to lose their sense of purpose.

Even earlier today, I heard someone allude to 2 Co 6:14 as if it was in apparent opposition to Great Commission verses like Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[Cycel]

The entymology of the word ‘religion’ lies in the Latin word ligare, to bind.

Religion is that which "binds" and directs our mind, will and emotion in the expression of identity and purpose and hope. Religion is where we get our sense of obligation and duty. In modern parlance, religion shapes our worldview.

Abraham is the founder of Judeo-Christian faith and he sets a model of binding his conduct and setting aside his native homeland near modern Iraq, Isaac his son, and his own ambitions to do what he understood to be the ordained Will of God. Abraham's religious faith bound him to a series of actions.

When we believe that: Jesus is LORD, this binds us to appropriate responses to that belief.

Yes, but this whole argument you frame is in relation to a sacred text. Atheists have no sacred texts with which to draw upon or to bind themselves. So are they religious in the same sense as a Christian? I don’t think so. Certainly those atheists who reject any possibility of an afterlife would have to be excluded from this membership. I have to say those atheists I’ve talked with who do believe in ghosts are pretty loosey-goosey with their views and make no absolute assertions regarding claims. They have no sacred scripture they reference. They seem to rely more on the media and stories in the tabloids or television stations that specialize in stories about aliens building the pyramids. Most people who follow a set religion are generally pretty focussed on what they think the sacred literature is telling them. In my eyes there is a world of difference between these groups of believers.

Having said all that I do think you are making a valid connection as it relates at least to some people – myself for instance. I believed in an afterlife while at the same time believing in God. After I lost my belief in God I continued to believe in an afterlife, however, it really had no connection to traditional Christian belief about spirits. I based my assumptions about ghosts primarily upon the writings of Hans Holzer, a self-styled ghost hunter. In retrospect my belief in ghosts may have been based on a desire to have an afterlife or it may have been based on simple curiosity. It’s really hard to say for certain. Holzer’s later books became somewhat farfetched and I found myself becoming suspicious regarding his pronouncements. When I was twenty-five I read a more academic book on ghosts and spiritualism in England which focused on the period from the 19th century to the mid 1970s. It demolished my faltering belief in ghosts. I haven’t believed in an afterlife since that time.

Summing up, I think that in identifying the beliefs of some atheists as religious faith really waters down what it means to have faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Why are atheists even on this site?? I don't get it??

Or.....maybe something burning deep inside you.....you hunger for the truth!!!
Or what would be your reasoning behind coming on here? Obviously not to change a Christians mind I'm hoping?? Because that's rude and none of your business.

HAHAHHAH awesome literally laughed out loud HAHAHHA

 

[dcontroversal]

I never said I disliked atheists. You are still God's children, and we are taught to love EVERYONE.
To some degree your mind must be open to learning more about God yes? Or you would not be on here??????

Yes or no?

Another good reply and good questions for sure HAHA!

 

[damombomb]

The belief is that if someone dies violently, or unexpectedly, the emotional turmoil their spirit goes through causes some to become trapped between this existence and the next. Is there proof of this? No, but this is a belief system that has built up over the decades. It's promoted in much of the literature on ghosts. None of the books I've read on the subject makes any mention of God. I suppose it is a secular approach to life after death.

Many atheists do not hold such views. Most, like me, may not think there is any existence after death at all, but a few do believe. Out of curiosity I would like to see a survey on a few atheist sites to get a handle on how many people believe in continued existence after death.

Did you ever really know God Cecyl? How could you openly turn away from him? How come your heart became heard to him?
Since you said you once knew him? I already know you do not believe in hell, but heaven and hell are real. Just don'twant
you cast with the unbelievers. Repent please, you know what is right

 

[Cycel]

I want to know.....your purpose.

I'll tell you if you'll tell me.

I'll go first.

I love debating. My kids will tell you that about me. My eldest gets angry when I question his views so to keep the peace I have learned to keep my mouth shout. It has taken me a while to learn that. Oh, by the way, he's an atheist, but he's not well read and often makes claims he hasn't really given a lot of thought to. That's just an invitation for me to jump in. My youngest, age 26, is very well read and well informed. More often than not he corrects me.

Many Christians are not well informed about atheists, or about evolution, and though I haven't debated evolution a whole lot on this forum I have elsewhere. So, if someone makes a statement about either of those subjects that isn't true I do my best to correct the situation. On the other hand there have been times when it's turned out that my perceptions about Christian belief were false. I've been corrected on a number of matters over the years. I see learning as a two-way street.

I am particularly interested in questions regarding the paranormal. I am not on this thread to correct peoples views about spirits but to learn what others think and to share my views as well. It’s no coincidence that I once believed in ghosts and I am now discussing ghosts. It is also no coincidence that I once believed in God and am now discussing God. My past interests have followed me.

The last thing I will say is that my first experience was with atheist forums. I have gravitated now to Christian forums because that is where the more lively discussions are.

 

[Cycel]

To pass time because he suddenly got bored of atheism?

This is tongue in cheek I suppose? The truth is I debate because I enjoy it. I also think it sharpens the mind.

@cycel: Why are you an atheist anyway?

I don't have a short answer and anything I tell you here will be very incomplete, but in brief I might say a few things. I first experienced doubts when I was perhaps ten years old that were never satisfactorily answered. The doubts regarded Genesis. Because I had been taught that the Bible was the unblemished word of God these difficulties caused me to start questioning God's existence. In retrospect if I had been given a more liberal biblical education I might not have questioned things the way I did. Second, when I did turn to God to heal my faith my prayers went unanswered. Christians have since told me that God may have responded but that I just hadn't noticed. I think that if there is a God it's not likely he can't make himself heard. When God wants to reach you, you notice. So either God didn't care about reaching me, which is not what I believed about God, or there was no God. After a considerable time spent searching, with negative results, I opted for the latter conclusion.

This is brief and it leaves some unfortunate holes in the explanation which are likely to lead to some misunderstanding. The fact is no brief answer is truly possible. It leaves so much out. Some thirty years ago my interest in genealogy led me to write my religious autobiography. It still needs some fixing up, but it is largely complete. It details how I became an atheist and covers the period up to which I lost that last vestige of religion – the belief in an afterlife. That essay is about 22 pages in length. The gives you an idea of how much I’ve left out of my explanation to you.

 

[Ella85]

This is tongue in cheek I suppose? The truth is I debate because I enjoy it. I also think it sharpens the mind.


I don't have a short answer and anything I tell you here will be very incomplete, but in brief I might say a few things. I first experienced doubts when I was perhaps ten years old that were never satisfactorily answered. The doubts regarded Genesis. Because I had been taught that the Bible was the unblemished word of God these difficulties caused me to start questioning God's existence. In retrospect if I had been given a more liberal biblical education I might not have questioned things the way I did. Second, when I did turn to God to heal my faith my prayers went unanswered. Christians have since told me that God may have responded but that I just hadn't noticed. I think that if there is a God it's not likely he can't make himself heard. When God wants to reach you, you notice. So either God didn't care about reaching me, which is not what I believed about God, or there was no God. After a considerable time spent searching, with negative results, I opted for the latter conclusion.

This is brief and it leaves some unfortunate holes in the explanation which are likely to lead to some misunderstanding. The fact is no brief answer is truly possible. It leaves so much out. Some thirty years ago my interest in genealogy led me to write my religious autobiography. It still needs some fixing up, but it is largely complete. It details how I became an atheist and covers the period up to which I lost that last vestige of religion – the belief in an afterlife. That essay is about 22 pages in length. The gives you an idea of how much I’ve left out of my explanation to you.

Sounds to me............

You are confused what to believe in. You lost your faith and turned to atheism.
You know, no one can change the way you think, and or what to believe in.
This is your journey and I pray that you find what you need to for YOU.

I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
As most of us do here on Christian chat.

You will find that your views will be looked over and not given much thought as we do not share similar views.
Like I said...your journey....your life. Wish you all the best.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

I always have to laugh when atheists come onto Christian forums and groups - why? I wouldn't dream of going onto an atheist site (are there any?) it simply would not interest me, yet atheists are all over Christian places, they say they want debate but they can go anywhere for debate!

Are they curious to know the truth? Do they know the truth yet are loath to give up their sins and follow Christ? Who knows but still it's telling that they frequent places where people's beliefs are the opposite to their own.