The Paranormal

[Cycel]

Did you ever really know God Cecyl?

I've been told that if I truly knew God I could not have abandoned belief. Did I know God? No. I prayed very earnestly but God never made himself known to me. He never spoke to me. He never made his presence known. In the end that is largely why I stopped believing. The important thing to understand is that I very much wanted to believe in God. Had God made himself known to me I would be a believer today.

How could you openly turn away from him? How come your heart became heard [hardened] to him?

I had in the beginning what I thought were some legitimate questions that led me over time to question God's existence. Before all belief was lost, however, I made a desperate attempt to reach out to God. During that period God seemed to remain silent. Either he wasn't interested in communicating, or he wasn't there. What I believed about God would not allow me to believe he would remain silent by choice so I concluded that he must not be there at all.

Since you said you once knew him? I already know you do not believe in hell, but heaven and hell are real.

I can’t tell you on what date I first became an atheist because I truly do not know when that happened. I have no conscious memory of deciding not to believe in God. I think what must have happened is that the belief simply faded without me really being aware of the change. That may seem hard for you to believe, but I suspect that is what happened. I have a few specific memories of early situations in which I knew I was an atheist, but I don’t really remember becoming one. I do know that there were several occasions on which I slipped back into belief and then out again. The last time I returned to belief in God was, I think, when I was sixteen. That was the occasion on which I made my most concerted effort to find God. For a few weeks I threw myself into prayer and into scripture. I desperately wanted God to reach out to me. He never did. After a few weeks I surrendered to my former atheism. I concluded I must have been wrong. There was no God after all. After that time I never again returned to belief.

Repent please, you know what is right

Repenting is not possible without first believing God exists or at the very least is possible. I am not of that mind.

 

[Cycel]

I always have to laugh when atheists come onto Christian forums and groups - why? I wouldn't dream of going onto an atheist site (are there any?) it simply would not interest me, yet atheists are all over Christian places, they say they want debate but they can go anywhere for debate!

Are they curious to know the truth? Do they know the truth yet are loath to give up their sins and follow Christ? Who knows but still it's telling that they frequent places where people's beliefs are the opposite to their own.

I look forward to giving you a response, but I have already stayed up way too late. Until then.

 

[Cycel]

Sounds to me............

You are confused what to believe in.

There is no confusion on my part. I know what I believe and why I believe it, so why do you say that?

You lost your faith and turned to atheism.

No Ella, atheism is the default position once belief in God is lost.

You know, no one can change the way you think, and or what to believe in.

Why then have my views on a number of things been altered by discussion with others? No belief is locked in. Beliefs are fluid and subject to change. It takes only the right bit of knowledge to alter perceptions.

You will find that your views will be looked over and not given much thought as we do not share similar views.
Like I said...your journey....your life. Wish you all the best.

That sounds final. I know you must think your views are worth sharing, but it sounds as if you are terminating discussion.

 

[Ella85]

There is no confusion on my part. I know what I believe and why I believe it, so why do you say that?


No Ella, atheism is the default position once belief in God is lost.


Why then have my views on a number of things been altered by discussion with others? No belief is locked in. Beliefs are fluid and subject to change. It takes only the right bit of knowledge to alter perceptions.


That sounds final. I know you must think your views are worth sharing, but it sounds as if you are terminating discussion.

Yep..... Subject closed.

 

[just-me]

Cycel
One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment of spirits. God gave that one for good reason just as He gave the others including faith.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal .
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles ; to another prophecy ; to another discerning of spirits ; to another divers kinds of tongues ; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will .

 

[Cycel]

Sounds to me............

You are confused what to believe in.

You know, it has just occurred to me that if you are right and I am confused then I may be ripe for conversion. Had you thought of that?

Clearly I don't think that is the case, but what if I am wrong?

 

[Cycel]

Cycel
One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment of spirits. God gave that one for good reason just as He gave the others including faith.

Sometimes I am slow on the uptake. To what part of the discussion does this particular passage deal? Are we talking about ghosts?

 

[oldthennew]

cycel said,

No Ella, atheism is the default position once belief in God is lost.
==============================================

once we know that He Is, it is an impossibility not to believe in Him!

we can put our spirits on 'sleep/mode' and cruze in the dream.

but, the Body of us who serve Him know, that when/where He chooses
to call us out, whether in a soft whisper or on a 'road to damascus' experience,
we WILL answer and acknowledge Him.

cycle, what an mystery you must ponder when you think about how much you
are loved by many people who don't even know you on a personal level!

we thank God that you have followed Him to this Christian Site.
may grace be upon your heart.

 

[just-me]

Cycel
One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment of spirits. God gave that one for good reason just as He gave the others including faith.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal .
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles ; to another prophecy ; to another discerning of spirits ; to another divers kinds of tongues ; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will .

Sometimes I am slow on the uptake. To what part of the discussion does this particular passage deal? Are we talking about ghosts?

I am talking about Spirits that are of God, and those that are not. The gift is to recognize the difference between evil and pure persuasions. A discerner of spirits.

 

[Cycel]

I always have to laugh when atheists come onto Christian forums and groups - why? I wouldn't dream of going onto an atheist site (are there any?)

There sure are. Do you want some references? If you do go you will find a population of Christians on every atheist forum. You would have to ask them why they make those forays. One fellow I remember was a Roman Catholic. He was well respected and very knowledgeable in a number of areas. He frequently stepped in to correct misunderstandings the rest of us had in regard Catholicism, and he was very active in the general discussion.

it simply would not interest me...

An atheist forum is the place to go if you are a Christian who is willing to have the strength of her convictions tested because you would be queried about every aspect of your belief system. Don't go unless you are confident about defending your views. Many of the Christians I see at atheist forums are Creationists who go to debate evolution, but I am sure Christians show up for a wide range of reasons.

yet atheists are all over Christian places, they say they want debate but they can go anywhere for debate!

If I am looking for debate with Christians where do you think the best place to go might be?

Are they curious to know the truth?

Honestly? Can you name any group of people whose desire it is not to know the truth?

Do they know the truth yet are loath to give up their sins and follow Christ?

This seems to be a fairly widespread belief among some Christians of a more conservative persuasion who like to discuss among themselves what they think motivates atheists. If you want the truth on this particular matter then talk to atheists. Personally I have never met anyone for whom this is true. People lose belief in God for all sorts of reasons, but not to give themselves free reign to sin.

... it's telling that they frequent places where people's beliefs are the opposite to their own.

All it tells me is that those who seek out conversations with those of opposing views are looking for a more robust discussion. The reason anyone would only want to talk with those who agree with them, it seems to me, is to avoid having pat assumptions questioned.

 

[Cycel]

I am talking about Spirits that are of God, and those that are not. The gift is to recognize the difference between evil and pure persuasions. A discerner of spirits.

I see. I have sought out spirits during seances, though I've only participated in about three. I think the reason I took part at all was to have my belief in spirits (or ghosts) confirmed. All the seances were failures. We attracted no spirits and my confidence in the existence of such things was probably eroded by the way things turned out. I've also used Ouija boards on a number of occasions but the only time the planchette ever moved was when I gave it a helping hand. A friend claimed great success in contacting the other side with his homemade device, but interestingly it never worked when I was present. Despite having believed in ghosts for a number of years I never actually saw one.

 

[Cycel]

cycel said,

No Ella, atheism is the default position once belief in God is lost.
==============================================

once we know that He Is, it is an impossibility not to believe in Him!

I know it feels that way, but atheists typically feel the same. Once you know there is no God it is impossible to go back. At least that is the feeling many have and I understand why they think that, so we all have the sense that the turncoat didn't truly understand in the first place; but who are any of us to claim that person was not really a true believer, or a true unbeliever. The truth is the barrier from belief to unbelief, or back again, is quite fluid. Believers become atheists on a regular basis, and a few even find their way back again. Was there a more steadfast atheist than Anthony Flew, yet in his final years he found his way to God. Was there a more devout evangelical preacher than Dan Barker, yet in his thirties or forties found he could no longer believe in God. It happens my friend. The current runs both ways.

we can put our spirits on 'sleep/mode' and cruze in the dream.

???

but, the Body of us who serve Him know, that when/where He chooses
to call us out, whether in a soft whisper or on a 'road to damascus' experience,
we WILL answer and acknowledge Him.

I had my own Damascus experience but it worked the other way around. It confirmed my non-belief. I spoke of it a few posts back.

cycle, what an mystery you must ponder when you think about how much you
are loved by many people who don't even know you on a personal level!

That's not atypical of Christian behaviour, though there are always a few who would rather not get to know me.

we thank God that you have followed Him to this Christian Site.
may grace be upon your heart.

Thank you, I look forward to many pleasant discussions.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Thank you for your reply Cycel, you do make me smile (no sarcasm) you read just like the guy in your avatar lol.

I have no desire to visit any atheist sites, really it wouldn't interest me to converse with a bunch of atheists - when I do I generally find them rude and aggressive - like they have something to defend. I don't include you in that, I'm just generalising. Until fairly recently I was agnostic - I couldn't call myself an atheist as I couldn't know for sure there was no God. The reason I am now a Christian is because I searched for the truth which culminated in a prayer, the next day God came into my life.

You appear to assume that Christians are fearful of conversing with atheists - not so, I just hear the same old arguments when I do. I don't claim to be good with science or physics though I know people who are and are also convinced of a creator. I have read and viewed various materials from astrophysicists, a bio chemist and a nano technician who are Christians but none of it would have meant anything without the real personal experience I had so please don't assume I am fearful of anything an atheist can throw at me - I may not be able to answer scientific questions but I know people who can. As I said it just doesn't interest me to visit an atheist site and I find it strange that atheists come here - unless they want to troll - I'm pretty sure that isn't your style - it's not logical - sorry couldn't resist lol.

 

[just-me]

I see. I have sought out spirits during seances, though I've only participated in about three. I think the reason I took part at all was to have my belief in spirits (or ghosts) confirmed. All the seances were failures. We attracted no spirits and my confidence in the existence of such things was probably eroded by the way things turned out. I've also used Ouija boards on a number of occasions but the only time the planchette ever moved was when I gave it a helping hand. A friend claimed great success in contacting the other side with his homemade device, but interestingly it never worked when I was present. Despite having believed in ghosts for a number of years I never actually saw one.

I have the gift, but it can develope as time goes by. I'm still developing. I will say that your explanation of experiences have been by the grace of God. I'm happy they failed. It is to your benefit.

 

[crossnote]

I led the way in that though, didn't I.

As I stressed before not all atheists believe in an afterlife, but virtually all Christians do. Within religions one finds sacred texts that are held up as the pillar of all knowledge regarding things spiritual. The Bible guides all Christians in matters concerning the afterlife. It is considered by most as the final word. Atheists posses nothing like that. Furthermore, for atheists, everything is open to question and investigation. Nothing is sacred. When I did believe in ghosts I was open to the possibility that I might be wrong. This is not true for those who worship God. Atheism is the very antithesis of all things spiritual and sacred. It is not religious.

What I was saying is that even when atheists say there is 'nothing' after our bodies are 6ft under...that is their religion...their view of the 'after death' if you will.

 

[nl]

Yes, but this whole argument you frame is in relation to a sacred text. Atheists have no sacred texts with which to draw upon or to bind themselves. So are they religious in the same sense as a Christian? I don’t think so. Certainly those atheists who reject any possibility of an afterlife would have to be excluded from this membership. I have to say those atheists I’ve talked with who do believe in ghosts are pretty loosey-goosey with their views and make no absolute assertions regarding claims. They have no sacred scripture they reference. They seem to rely more on the media and stories in the tabloids or television stations that specialize in stories about aliens building the pyramids. Most people who follow a set religion are generally pretty focussed on what they think the sacred literature is telling them. In my eyes there is a world of difference between these groups of believers.

Having said all that I do think you are making a valid connection as it relates at least to some people – myself for instance. I believed in an afterlife while at the same time believing in God. After I lost my belief in God I continued to believe in an afterlife, however, it really had no connection to traditional Christian belief about spirits. I based my assumptions about ghosts primarily upon the writings of Hans Holzer, a self-styled ghost hunter. In retrospect my belief in ghosts may have been based on a desire to have an afterlife or it may have been based on simple curiosity. It’s really hard to say for certain. Holzer’s later books became somewhat farfetched and I found myself becoming suspicious regarding his pronouncements. When I was twenty-five I read a more academic book on ghosts and spiritualism in England which focused on the period from the 19th century to the mid 1970s. It demolished my faltering belief in ghosts. I haven’t believed in an afterlife since that time.

Summing up, I think that in identifying the beliefs of some atheists as religious faith really waters down what it means to have faith.

Yes, but many things bind and obligate us and religion can be defined as that which binds and obligates and motivates us.

People speak of someone "religiously" dedicated to their job or hobby or cause. People can be zealouts for entertainment outlets and sports teams and products and election campaigns and personal fitness. I think that religion can be defined broadly and would include the practices of atheists who serve the cause of atheism.

As another example, participation in youth sports activities now regularly crowds out time on Sundays for church activities. Games are being scheduled at considerable distances for times when people formerly were attending church. Urban communities are said to "bond" with their sports teams. Money and time flowing into sports has been growing while money and time flowing into churches has been declining. The level of devotion to sports in many situations far exceeds the devotion given to church and the practice of piety. Not so long ago, communities poured large resources into building cathedrals. It is more common now for communities to pour a large volume of money into building sports facilities.

There are many idols in the world with many devotees. Atheism has its devoted advocates. Recent news headlines have told of atheist organizations seeking many of the same privileges that religious organizations have had.

 

[Ella85]

You know, it has just occurred to me that if you are right and I am confused then I may be ripe for conversion. Had you thought of that?

Clearly I don't think that is the case, but what if I am wrong?

First of all....you say you are ripe for conversation although are you willing to accept and acknowledge what we tell you and or atleast consider it?
Second of all you acknowledged the fact that you may be wrong and may be confused...which suggests that there may be a God.
So what will you do?

Will you seek the answers out?

There are 2 options.
Accept you are a son of God and follow His word
OR remain an atheist.


Can I ask you....what are you questions? Yes we are all here to help you...are you willing to listen and perhaps have an open mind?

 

[just-me]

I see. I have sought out spirits during seances, though I've only participated in about three. I think the reason I took part at all was to have my belief in spirits (or ghosts) confirmed. All the seances were failures. We attracted no spirits and my confidence in the existence of such things was probably eroded by the way things turned out. I've also used Ouija boards on a number of occasions but the only time the planchette ever moved was when I gave it a helping hand. A friend claimed great success in contacting the other side with his homemade device, but interestingly it never worked when I was present. Despite having believed in ghosts for a number of years I never actually saw one.

Here are some of the Words of the Almighty God concerning contact with the other side, and all that accompany that concerning enchantments. They are very important part of pagan religion.

Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times , or an enchanter , or a witch ,
11 Or a charmer , or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer .

2 King 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times , and used enchantments , and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger .

 

[Tinkerbell725]

To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for , to be certain of the things we cannot see. It was by faith that people of the ancient times won God's approval. It is by faith that we understand that the universe was created by God's word, so that what can be seen was made out of what cannot be seen. (Hebrews 11:1-3)

No one can please God without faith, for whosoever comes to God must have faith that God exists and rewards those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

Its either you have lost your faith or you have not found it yet. But God gave you free will so you are free to choose. I pray that you wont regret your choice.

 

[nl]

To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for , to be certain of the things we cannot see. It was by faith that people of the ancient times won God's approval. It is by faith that we understand that the universe was created by God's word, so that what can be seen was made out of what cannot be seen. (Hebrews 11:1-3)

No one can please God without faith, for whosoever comes to God must have faith that God exists and rewards those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

Its either you have lost your faith or you have not found it yet. But God gave you free will so you are free to choose. I pray that you wont regret your choice.

Free will is important for as far it goes. But, free will won't put you on the moon tonight even if you want to go. Free will alone won't put you into heaven ever. There are paranormal things called the Spirit of God and the Grace of God that Almighty God must sovereignly grant before a human person can be born again and become an heir of eternal life.