Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[VCO]

OK are you saying that because you know their doctrine or are you just guessing? I'm not certain that they accept the Only Son of God and not a Son of God. Do Mormons espouse Jesus as Jehovah God incarnate? I just want to be certain we are using the same values for our terminology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No, they think the Moromon Jesus is a spiritual offspring of the man who became GOD of this Universe. In my post #4 you will find links to what the Mormons mean by all the various Christian terms that they use, but means something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than we do. FOR EXAMPLE:

The Mormon GODHEAD:

LDS: Teach that Father God is a resurrected man with a physical body. He has a Father-God above Him. Christ is a separate resurrected man with a physical body; Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body. These three are totally separate Gods.
(D&C 130:22; Teachings, pp. 345-346, pp. 370-373; Doctrines of Salvation,v.1, p. 10-12)

The Mormon JESUS CHRIST:

Gospel Principles, p. 11, 17, 18

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ...so he is literally our elder brother.... We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" ... Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said "Here am I, send me".... Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me." ... After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first." ... Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled.
​

 

[VCO]

. . .There were many, many letters that were lost or rejected by the Constantine Bishops when they perviewed what they thought should be included. In fact Revelations was left off of many lists because to the list makers it was too bizarre.

Good discussion. I enjoy reading about your research and I hope you are enjoying the discussion too.

I am enjoying it, thank you. Did you know that Revelation and the closed to understanding prophecies of Daniel go hand in hand, and should be read back to back to get the full picture. In a sense, Revelation was closed too, but not at the orders of GOD, but by fact that until the time of the end, the prophecies were confusing, because the events were not understandable without knowledge of modern technologies. What do I mean? Here is an example, that caused a lot of confusion until we understood what Live NEWS Reports on CNN were.

Revelation 11:3-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. {Perhaps flame throwers?}
[SUP]6 [/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days {LIVE ON CNN.}, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. {LIVE ON CNN, but how will unbelievers explain that one? Beam me up Scotty, or a Russian secret weapon?}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[Dan_473]

It is not the Books themselves that are being CONFIRMED, but that the Author has been chosen by GOD to speak what GOD has inspired him to speak. Some times it was the Authors themselves that did the miracles from GOD. However in the OT it was more likely the Official Prophet of Israel that did the miracles to confirm the writings of the Author, such as happened with David.

That is why it says:

1 Corinthians 1:22-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

Jews KNEW the one claiming to be speaking for GOD would be confirmed with miraculous signs. They also knew these signs came from one that was already confirmed to be a genuine BELIEVER in the GOD of Israel. The Greeks remind me of a lot of unbelievers in this day and age, "Prove it to me in a debate, and then I will believe."

So it was not like the Apostles had to do a miracle with each new verse or page he wrote, JUST, prove they spoke from GOD with a genuine miracle one time was sufficient, and they knew they could trust his teachings from that point on. That was the PURPOSE for the sign gifts, to validate they spoke from GOD. And when that purpose was fulfilled those sign gifts ceased.

NO the modern day charismatic sign gifts are NOT the genuine gift that the Jews would consider to be from GOD. When the Apostles, spoke in TONGUES, all of the Jews present, from several different Countries, heard every word in their own Dialektos. That is their native tongue so perfect that even the dialect and accent was perfect. Anything less and the Jews would have figured it was a trick from Satan, imitating God's miracles, like when Pharoah's Magicians turned their staffs to snakes.

Acts 11:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.

That means the tongue of Fire had to be there, the mighty rushing of wind had to be there, AND they had to hear in their own native dialect, as Cornelius and his family proclaimed the mighty works of GOD; OR, the Jews would consider it a Satanic counterfeit.

The Jews, I think, were somewhat uncertain about their canon... The lxx translators using a different list than Jewish people today... is there a list of confirmed nt authors? what should we do about books that don't say their author, or the authorship rests heavily on tradition? Hebrews or Mark?

 

[VCO]

The Jews, I think, were somewhat uncertain about their canon... The lxx translators using a different list than Jewish people today... is there a list of confirmed nt authors? what should we do about books that don't say their author, or the authorship rests heavily on tradition? Hebrews or Mark?

Trust that our forefathers were led by the HOLY SPIRIT, as they gathered the sources and translated the Bible into our language. A GOD who is Holy enough and powerful enough give HIS WORD perfect and true through the minds of men in the first place, can also USE TRANSLATORS. IT WAS CONFIRMED TO THEM, it does not have to be confirmed to each individual that buys a BIBLE; Just like JESUS confirmed HIS Resurrection to ENOUGH witnesses by appearing to them, and THEN HE STOPPED confirming His Resurrection that way. WHY? Beyond that we are to rely on the HOLY SPIRIT, if we are born again, to CONFIRM in our hearts thereby discerning what is TRUE and what is FALSE. It is NOT a matter of needing more of the Holy Spirit, if you are truly born again, you already have all of the HOLY SPIRIT you are ever going to get. IT IS THEREFORE, a question of How Much of YOURSELF, have you GIVEN HIM? He wants ALL you yourself, a complete surrender to Jesus Christ as LORD and MASTER. Do that and there will not be any questions as to what is TRUE and what is False. You will KNOW, because you have the mind of Christ in you.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

NO, I am NOT talking about the MORMON "burning in the bossom", I am talking about a REAL inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST of the BIBLE, where out of LOVE for HIM we totally surrender control of our lives to HIM.

 

[notuptome]

No, they think the Moromon Jesus is a spiritual offspring of the man who became GOD of this Universe. In my post #4 you will find links to what the Mormons mean by all the various Christian terms that they use, but means something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than we do. FOR EXAMPLE:

The Mormon GODHEAD:

LDS: Teach that Father God is a resurrected man with a physical body. He has a Father-God above Him. Christ is a separate resurrected man with a physical body; Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body. These three are totally separate Gods.
(D&C 130:22; Teachings, pp. 345-346, pp. 370-373; Doctrines of Salvation,v.1, p. 10-12)

The Mormon JESUS CHRIST:

Gospel Principles, p. 11, 17, 18

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ...so he is literally our elder brother.... We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" ... Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said "Here am I, send me".... Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me." ... After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first." ... Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled.
​

This is why follow up questions are necessary. One cannot be saved, have their sins forgiven and possess eternal life if they are not believing in the Jesus Christ of the bible. One must know Christ as the bible presents Him and not as some religions have made Him to be. Romans 1 speaks of those who have changed God into and image they prefer over Who God really is by His person and nature.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

Trust that our forefathers were led by the HOLY SPIRIT, as they gathered the sources and translated the Bible into our language. A GOD who is Holy enough and powerful enough give HIS WORD perfect and true through the minds of men in the first place, can also USE TRANSLATORS. IT WAS CONFIRMED TO THEM, it does not have to be confirmed to each individual that buys a BIBLE; Just like JESUS confirmed HIS Resurrection to ENOUGH witnesses by appearing to them, and THEN HE STOPPED confirming His Resurrection that way. WHY? Beyond that we are to rely on the HOLY SPIRIT, if we are born again, to CONFIRM in our hearts thereby discerning what is TRUE and what is FALSE. It is NOT a matter of needing more of the Holy Spirit, if you are truly born again, you already have all of the HOLY SPIRIT you are ever going to get. IT IS THEREFORE, a question of How Much of YOURSELF, have you GIVEN HIM? He wants ALL you yourself, a complete surrender to Jesus Christ as LORD and MASTER. Do that and there will not be any questions as to what is TRUE and what is False. You will KNOW, because you have the mind of Christ in you.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

NO, I am NOT talking about the MORMON "burning in the bossom", I am talking about a REAL inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST of the BIBLE, where out of LOVE for HIM we totally surrender control of our lives to HIM.

Well about the fathers... Marcion had a different list, also the muratorian canon is different... Many consider marcion a heretic, but who's a heretic and who's a father usually depends on who's pointing... So, trusting the spirit to guide you, I like that idea... It does sound to me very similar to what the Mormons say... I tried the ask God test about the book of Mormon, and got a positive response... Then I tried the same test on the teachings of Buddha, got a positive there, too...I decided both were probably false positives...

 

[Dan_473]

Trust that our forefathers were led by the HOLY SPIRIT, as they gathered the sources and translated the Bible into our language. A GOD who is Holy enough and powerful enough give HIS WORD perfect and true through the minds of men in the first place, can also USE TRANSLATORS. IT WAS CONFIRMED TO THEM, it does not have to be confirmed to each individual that buys a BIBLE; Just like JESUS confirmed HIS Resurrection to ENOUGH witnesses by appearing to them, and THEN HE STOPPED confirming His Resurrection that way. WHY? Beyond that we are to rely on the HOLY SPIRIT, if we are born again, to CONFIRM in our hearts thereby discerning what is TRUE and what is FALSE. It is NOT a matter of needing more of the Holy Spirit, if you are truly born again, you already have all of the HOLY SPIRIT you are ever going to get. IT IS THEREFORE, a question of How Much of YOURSELF, have you GIVEN HIM? He wants ALL you yourself, a complete surrender to Jesus Christ as LORD and MASTER. Do that and there will not be any questions as to what is TRUE and what is False. You will KNOW, because you have the mind of Christ in you.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

NO, I am NOT talking about the MORMON "burning in the bossom", I am talking about a REAL inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST of the BIBLE, where out of LOVE for HIM we totally surrender control of our lives to HIM.

One other thing about the fathers I think is interesting... It's the position of the Catholic church that the fathers were led to pick out the right Scriptures and properly interpret those writings... The scriptures not being something people interpret by themselves ... Does it seem like the Catholics do something unbiblical? It's not up to individual people to read and decide something on their own... It's not a position I hold, but the more cred one gives to the fathers, the more likely one is to be on that road, I think...

 

[VCO]

Well about the fathers... Marcion had a different list, also the muratorian canon is different... Many consider marcion a heretic, but who's a heretic and who's a father usually depends on who's pointing... So, trusting the spirit to guide you, I like that idea... It does sound to me very similar to what the Mormons say... I tried the ask God test about the book of Mormon, and got a positive response... Then I tried the same test on the teachings of Buddha, got a positive there, too...I decided both were probably false positives...

USE THE BIBLE'S OWN TEST:


Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and preached everywhere,the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.

Like I told you that is why most Churches DO NOT recognize the Apocrypha books as being part of the CANON.

You see, IT IS NOT THE LISTS THAT COUNT, but the validation from GOD HIMSELF.

Then there is the ULTIMATE TEST, but you would have to become a born again Christian first and mature spiritually:

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] However, we do speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the contrary, we speak God’s hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] None of the rulers of this age knew ⌊this⌋ wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But as it is written: What eye did not see and ear did not hear, and what never entered the human mind— God prepared this for those who love Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Now God has revealed ⌊these things⌋ to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who ⌊comes⌋ from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For who has known the Lord’s mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[VCO]

One other thing about the fathers I think is interesting... It's the position of the Catholic church that the fathers were led to pick out the right Scriptures and properly interpret those writings... The scriptures not being something people interpret by themselves ... Does it seem like the Catholics do something unbiblical? It's not up to individual people to read and decide something on their own... It's not a position I hold, but the more cred one gives to the fathers, the more likely one is to be on that road, I think...

I know several born again Catholics, and two of them are Priests that GOD has really gifted to preach the WORD expositorially. THAT is Teaching the Word, not just quoting it, so that their whole congregation can understand the teaching, and KNOWS WHAT IT MEANS BY WHAT IT SAYS AND HOW IT APPLIES TO THEIR LIVES. You should have seen the look on some of the people's faces when I gave their priest a loud "AMEN!" The priest smiled and thanked me afterwards for encouraging him.

I am a FIRM believer that a Pastor's of Priest's primary job is to TEACH his congregation how to do the work of the Ministry. The real work of the Ministry, is therefore OUR JOB, not our Pastor's or our Priest's job.

THEREFORE teaching the WORD of GOD is a spiritually gifted Calling from GOD. Like my mother-in-law once said, when we were visiting another Church, and the sermon was extremely boring. "Some men think God called them to Preach, when God really called them to PLOW."

Do I think some Catholics AND SOME Protestants do some things unbiblically? YES, However they are FAR more right than any Mormon or Jehovah Witness, ever was. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, as well as several other similar Groups are not even remotely Christians, they a psuedo-Christian Cults. If you want to investigate it further, I would highly recommend the book, "Kingdom of the CULTS, by Dr. Walter Martin.

Paul exposed and named the False Prophets of His Day:

1 Timothy 1:19-20 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Some have refused to let their faith guide their conscience and their faith has been destroyed like a wrecked ship.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Among these people are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan in order to teach them not to dishonor God.

So I will name them too. Don't listen to False Prophets like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Charles Russell, Harold Camping, Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Mary Baker Eddy, Katheryn Kuhlman, Peter Popoff, Etc., Etc., Etc.

 

[Dan_473]

USE THE BIBLE'S OWN TEST:


Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and preached everywhere,the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.

Like I told you that is why most Churches DO NOT recognize the Apocrypha books as being part of the CANON.

You see, IT IS NOT THE LISTS THAT COUNT, but the validation from GOD HIMSELF.

Then there is the ULTIMATE TEST, but you would have to become a born again Christian first and mature spiritually:

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] However, we do speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the contrary, we speak God’s hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] None of the rulers of this age knew ⌊this⌋ wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But as it is written: What eye did not see and ear did not hear, and what never entered the human mind— God prepared this for those who love Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Now God has revealed ⌊these things⌋ to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who ⌊comes⌋ from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For who has known the Lord’s mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Well which books or authors are the ones that are confirmed? Since I'm not Mormon, I can't speak for them, but I'm guessing that some of them feel that they are the ones with the spiritual understanding, with the mind of Christ...

 

[Dan_473]

.

I know several born again Catholics, and two of them are Priests that GOD has really gifted to preach the WORD expositorially. THAT is Teaching the Word, not just quoting it, so that their whole congregation can understand the teaching, and KNOWS WHAT IT MEANS BY WHAT IT SAYS AND HOW IT APPLIES TO THEIR LIVES. You should have seen the look on some of the people's faces when I gave their priest a loud "AMEN!" The priest smiled and thanked me afterwards for encouraging him.

I am a FIRM believer that a Pastor's of Priest's primary job is to TEACH his congregation how to do the work of the Ministry. The real work of the Ministry, is therefore OUR JOB, not our Pastor's or our Priest's job.

THEREFORE teaching the WORD of GOD is a spiritually gifted Calling from GOD. Like my mother-in-law once said, when we were visiting another Church, and the sermon was extremely boring. "Some men think God called them to Preach, when God really called them to PLOW."

Do I think some Catholics AND SOME Protestants do some things unbiblically? YES, However they are FAR more right than any Mormon or Jehovah Witness, ever was. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, as well as several other similar Groups are not even remotely Christians, they a psuedo-Christian Cults. If you want to investigate it further, I would highly recommend the book, "Kingdom of the CULTS, by Dr. Walter Martin.

Paul exposed and named the False Prophets of His Day:

1 Timothy 1:19-20 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Some have refused to let their faith guide their conscience and their faith has been destroyed like a wrecked ship.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Among these people are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan in order to teach them not to dishonor God.

So I will name them too. Don't listen to False Prophets like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Charles Russell, Harold Camping, Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Mary Baker Eddy, Katheryn Kuhlman, Peter Popoff, Etc., Etc., Etc.

Are there false prophets around? Yes, certainly... I've read martins book and saw him speak in person one time... About the fathers, who's a father and who isn't? Marcion took a very different approach... Did the spirit lead the fathers just in picking the scriptures, or in their theology, too?

 

[Fishbait]

I know several born again Catholics, and two of them are Priests that GOD has really gifted to preach the WORD expositorially. THAT is Teaching the Word, not just quoting it, so that their whole congregation can understand the teaching, and KNOWS WHAT IT MEANS BY WHAT IT SAYS AND HOW IT APPLIES TO THEIR LIVES. You should have seen the look on some of the people's faces when I gave their priest a loud "AMEN!" The priest smiled and thanked me afterwards for encouraging him.

I am a FIRM believer that a Pastor's of Priest's primary job is to TEACH his congregation how to do the work of the Ministry. The real work of the Ministry, is therefore OUR JOB, not our Pastor's or our Priest's job.

THEREFORE teaching the WORD of GOD is a spiritually gifted Calling from GOD. Like my mother-in-law once said, when we were visiting another Church, and the sermon was extremely boring. "Some men think God called them to Preach, when God really called them to PLOW."

Do I think some Catholics AND SOME Protestants do some things unbiblically? YES, However they are FAR more right than any Mormon or Jehovah Witness, ever was. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, as well as several other similar Groups are not even remotely Christians, they a psuedo-Christian Cults. If you want to investigate it further, I would highly recommend the book, "Kingdom of the CULTS, by Dr. Walter Martin.

Paul exposed and named the False Prophets of His Day:

1 Timothy 1:19-20 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Some have refused to let their faith guide their conscience and their faith has been destroyed like a wrecked ship.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Among these people are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan in order to teach them not to dishonor God.

So I will name them too. Don't listen to False Prophets like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Charles Russell, Harold Camping, Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Mary Baker Eddy, Katheryn Kuhlman, Peter Popoff, Etc., Etc., Etc.

As Christians we must walk lightly when accusing others of believing in something we see as wrong or as a 'cult'. Jesus warned us:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:3

 

[VCO]

Well which books or authors are the ones that are confirmed? Since I'm not Mormon, I can't speak for them, but I'm guessing that some of them feel that they are the ones with the spiritual understanding, with the mind of Christ...

Every Book in our BIBLES (NOT the Apocrypha Books) had an author or Prophet of Israel, that did miracles with the LORD's Help, validating the author spoke from GOD. How many times do I have to have to say it. That is what the last verse in Mark is saying. When an author wrote more than one book like JOHN, successive books did not have to because John had ALREADY been Validated. Personally I think anyone doubting any book in the Bible, is falling into the Great Falling Away that was prophesied. The miracles performed by the Apostles STOPPED before the Bible was completed because all the authors had been validated. THUS, Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake (a common remedy for stomach ailments back then), instead of Healing him.

What do I think of modern faith healers? They fall into one of three categories:
1. Religious Con-Artists,
OR
2. Self-decieved only utilizing the power of suggestion,
OR
3. Deceived by Satan, doing his counterfeit miracles imitating God.

Do I believe GOD still does Miracles in answer to PRAYER? ABSOLUTELY! I have seen it on several occasions.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by VCO #92
"Now concerning Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, I will Quote the History of Joseph Smith, 1979 ed., pg. 83, so you can look this up. There you will find your own Mormon history book quoting Joseph Smith's own Mother:

Speaking of conversations occurring between 1820 and 1824, she said, "Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular, their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."

Now remember Joseph Smith claims he received the golden plates in 1827 and claimed he translated them in 1829, which is five years after his own Mother bragged about the made up stories Joseph would entertain the family with, and the same kind of stories end up in the Book of Mormon. Now who do you suppose the real author of the Book of Mormon is?

In Sept. 1823, Joseph was visited by an angel who called himself Moroni. Moroni told him that he had lived about 420 AD and had prepared a record of his people starting in Jerusalem 600 BC and ending in Mexico City in about 420 AD. This record talked about the kings from the beginning, the prophets of God among the people, their culture, religion, warfare, government, animals, etc. Moroni told him where he had buried the plates and gave Joseph many instructions over the years, but especially in the beginning, preparing him to translate this record into English and present it to the world.

It is from this angel, who lived and died and knew this ancient people that told Joseph these things and he just rehearsed what he had learned from the angel to his family.

Of course much of this information eventually made it into the Book of Mormon 5 or 6 years later. It was important information.

Joseph Smith was a 22 year old farm boy from upstate New York, with a 3rd grade education. Yet he produced a 531 page book on a topic and people that not even any great or famous American professor or explorer knew anything about. Over the years it has been published into 87 languages in full and another 25 in part. There have now been over 150,000,000 copies distributed around the world and it is one of the most widely printed books in the world. Of course the Bible is the most printed in the world.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon both teach us of Jesus Christ. They both testify of his Divinity. They both tell of his birth, life, teachings, death, and resurrection. The Book of Mormon does not add to the Bible, for it is its own stand-alone book. But it does add to the knowledge base of Jesus Christ and how he visited a part of the House of Israel here in the Americas, what he taught them and how he blessed them. It is worth the read.

 

[RickyZ]

Every Book in our BIBLES (NOT the Apocrypha Books) had an author or Prophet of Israel, that did miracles with the LORD's Help, validating the author spoke from GOD. How many times do I have to have to say it. That is what the last verse in Mark is saying. When an author wrote more than one book like JOHN, successive books did not have to because John had ALREADY been Validated. Personally I think anyone doubting any book in the Bible, is falling into the Great Falling Away that was prophesied. The miracles performed by the Apostles STOPPED before the Bible was completed because all the authors had been validated. THUS, Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake (a common remedy for stomach ailments back then), instead of Healing him.

What do I think of modern faith healers? They fall into one of three categories:
1. Religious Con-Artists,
OR
2. Self-decieved only utilizing the power of suggestion,
OR
3. Deceived by Satan, doing his counterfeit miracles imitating God.

Do I believe GOD still does Miracles in answer to PRAYER? ABSOLUTELY! I have seen it on several occasions.

When you say 'modern faith healers', are you picturing the traveling show kind or faithful saints quietly working in the gifts of the Spirit?

 

[VCO]

In Sept. 1823, Joseph was visited by an angel who called himself Moroni. Moroni told him that he had lived about 420 AD and had prepared a record of his people starting in Jerusalem 600 BC and ending in Mexico City in about 420 AD. This record talked about the kings from the beginning, the prophets of God among the people, their culture, religion, warfare, government, animals, etc. Moroni told him where he had buried the plates and gave Joseph many instructions over the years, but especially in the beginning, preparing him to translate this record into English and present it to the world.

It is from this angel, who lived and died and knew this ancient people that told Joseph these things and he just rehearsed what he had learned from the angel to his family.

Of course much of this information eventually made it into the Book of Mormon 5 or 6 years later. It was important information.

Joseph Smith was a 22 year old farm boy from upstate New York, with a 3rd grade education. Yet he produced a 531 page book on a topic and people that not even any great or famous American professor or explorer knew anything about. Over the years it has been published into 87 languages in full and another 25 in part. There have now been over 150,000,000 copies distributed around the world and it is one of the most widely printed books in the world. Of course the Bible is the most printed in the world.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon both teach us of Jesus Christ. They both testify of his Divinity. They both tell of his birth, life, teachings, death, and resurrection. The Book of Mormon does not add to the Bible, for it is its own stand-alone book. But it does add to the knowledge base of Jesus Christ and how he visited a part of the House of Israel here in the Americas, what he taught them and how he blessed them. It is worth the read.

First and foremost, Joseph Smith is a DECEIVER LED BY A DEMON, or the BIGGEST and Best Religious Con-Artist in History.

He did not teach the Jesus of the BIBLE, but rather a Counterfeit.
He did not teach the Father of the BIBLE, but rather a Counterfeit.
He did not teach the Holy Spirit of the BIBLE, but rather a Counterfeit.
He did not teach the GODhead of the BIBLE, but rather a Counterfeit.
He did not teach the BIBLE's plan of Salvation, but rather a Counterfeit.
He did not teach the GOSPEL of the JESUS of the BIBLE, but rather a Counterfeit.

Galatians 1:8-9 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

Angels do not live previous lives, Angels were created spiritual beings, and all of them are still alive today, GOOD OR those who turned to EVIL.

Not one page of the so-called Golden Plates has ever been on display in the Mormon Museum.

Not one of the Nephite coins (of gold senine, seon, shum and limnah) and (of silver senum, amnor, ezrom and onti) has ever been found.

Show us the ruins, show us the artifacts, show us any archeological evidence of the so-called ancient Israelites of the Americas.

". . . we have wondered why, in so many biblical ruins uncovered in the Middle East, archaeologists have been able to date their findings by the pottery and numerous coins normally found in the same level of their dig. Yet nobody has been able to find anything that would indicate a measurement of a precious metal or a coin that would connect them with ancient Israelites in the Americas. "

FACE IT! YOU WERE CONNED BY A PROFESSIONAL MADE UP STORY TELLER that was VERY GOOD AT TELLING BLARNEY and making people believe it.

 

[VCO]

When you say 'modern faith healers', are you picturing the traveling show kind or faithful saints quietly working in the gifts of the Spirit?

EXAMPLE: Representatives from John MacArthur's - Grace Community Church, in the early 70's went to Kathryn Kuhlman's Office, to interview her and to validate her so-called miracles. They asked her if she could provide them with 10 names of people that she knew she had healed of a terminal disease several years ago. She bragged, she could provide them with a 100 names if they wanted. She went to one of her file cabinets and got them the ten names. They thanked her and went out to investigate. ALL 10 had experienced temporary psychological relief of symptoms, but ALL TEN had died of their terminal disease. She refused to comment anymore when they returned to ask her what happened.

The miracle gift CEASED, and the modern day charismatic so-called gifts, including tongues are far less than what the APOSTLES did, and therefore they are all counterfeits. When the APOSTLES Spoke in Tongues, there was ALWAYS unbelieving JEWS present who heard in their own native dialects with perfect accents ever word that was spoken. WHEN THE APOSTLES HEALED, even those who fell in their shadows were healed. Less than that is a COUNTERFEIT.

 

[RickyZ]

EXAMPLE: Representatives from John MacArthur's - Grace Community Church, in the early 70's went to Kathryn Kuhlman's Office, to interview her and to validate her so-called miracles. They asked her if she could provide them with 10 names of people that she knew she had healed of a terminal disease several years ago. She bragged, she could provide them with a 100 names if they wanted. She went to one of her file cabinets and got them the ten names. They thanked her and went out to investigate. ALL 10 had experienced temporary psychological relief of symptoms, but ALL TEN had died of their terminal disease. She refused to comment anymore when they returned to ask her what happened.

That's a misunderstanding I see a lot. A gift of healing is not a gift of immortality. Pretty much everyone the Apostles healed, and even those Jesus healed, went on to die of something anyway. It's a sign and wonder meant to birth and grow faith, not to bestow eternal physical life. I hear you that there's a lot of hyperbole and not a lot of documentation, but to a large degree that's just how it works. You're asking for worldly evidence of spiritual things... and this world only testifies to itself. Believing is seeing, not the other way around.

2 and a half years ago my sister in law came down with a very deadly and aggressive cancer. They gave her 5 months, saying the most anyone has lasted is 2 years. She was covered in prayer, took chemo like it was nothing, and 5 months later was declared 100% free of all evidence of it. It brought faith to many and according to her doctors she had achieved the miracle.

It has now recently come back to her. And it will claim her life. Does that make the miracle before meaningless and moot? No, that was a sign and wonder that did the job it was intended to do at the time it was needed. But it was not a get out of jail free card. The flesh must still die on this side to be redeemed on the other. Very very very few of us will ever escape that, and really, you don't want to be around when that happens.

The miracle gift CEASED, and the modern day charismatic so-called gifts, including tongues are far less than what the APOSTLES did, and therefore they are all counterfeits. When the APOSTLES Spoke in Tongues, there was ALWAYS unbelieving JEWS present who heard in their own native dialects with perfect accents ever word that was spoken. WHEN THE APOSTLES HEALED, even those who fell in their shadows were healed. Less than that is a COUNTERFEIT.

See, now, this is where one gets in trouble. Pretty much everything under the sun is forgivable except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Just to review, a group of elders was saying Jesus did His miracles by the power of satan. The gist being that attributing the things of the Holy Spirit to satan is unforgivable. Now I'll give you that a lot, and I mean a lot, of the stuff you see going on is faked, or over the top (that's why Paul specifically told a bunch of them to put a lid on it). But you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater here. My life is a testament to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I will defend them to the grave. They are, absolutely and without doubt, real and in effect today. But the enemy doesn't want you to know that, so he buries it in a bunch of crap. And what happens again, when we speak satan's crap?

What if I told you that what we today call tongues, is really our native language? Think about it - Man had a singular spiritual language at creation, that existed until the tower of Babel. When Christ/the Messiah restores all things, one of those things will be that singular spiritual language. Now, Christ has won the right of restoration, but has yet to return to enforce it in the here and now. That's our job, we are to be His patrol deputies and enforce His will in the here and now. And we do that by prayer, intercession, and the gifts of the Spirit. For example, God never intended us to be sick. satan gets his kicks out of being able to make us so. Christ has won the right to thwart satan and restore health. But it's up to us to touch someone and speak it into being for them. These things will end when Christ does return and restores everything. IE, the gift of healing will cease when people no longer get sick. And in the future, spiritual language will be our native language and English will be known as the tongue.

I understand skeptisicm. But I caution against blaspheme. This issue more than any other is a very slippery slope.

 

[VCO]

That's a misunderstanding I see a lot. A gift of healing is not a gift of immortality. Pretty much everyone the Apostles healed, and even those Jesus healed, went on to die of something anyway. It's a sign and wonder meant to birth and grow faith, not to bestow eternal physical life. I hear you that there's a lot of hyperbole and not a lot of documentation, but to a large degree that's just how it works. You're asking for worldly evidence of spiritual things... and this world only testifies to itself. Believing is seeing, not the other way around.

2 and a half years ago my sister in law came down with a very deadly and aggressive cancer. They gave her 5 months, saying the most anyone has lasted is 2 years. She was covered in prayer, took chemo like it was nothing, and 5 months later was declared 100% free of all evidence of it. It brought faith to many and according to her doctors she had achieved the miracle.

It has now recently come back to her. And it will claim her life. Does that make the miracle before meaningless and moot? No, that was a sign and wonder that did the job it was intended to do at the time it was needed. But it was not a get out of jail free card. The flesh must still die on this side to be redeemed on the other. Very very very few of us will ever escape that, and really, you don't want to be around when that happens.



See, now, this is where one gets in trouble. Pretty much everything under the sun is forgivable except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Just to review, a group of elders was saying Jesus did His miracles by the power of satan. The gist being that attributing the things of the Holy Spirit to satan is unforgivable. Now I'll give you that a lot, and I mean a lot, of the stuff you see going on is faked, or over the top (that's why Paul specifically told a bunch of them to put a lid on it). But you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater here. My life is a testament to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I will defend them to the grave. They are, absolutely and without doubt, real and in effect today. But the enemy doesn't want you to know that, so he buries it in a bunch of crap. And what happens again, when we speak satan's crap?

What if I told you that what we today call tongues, is really our native language? Think about it - Man had a singular spiritual language at creation, that existed until the tower of Babel. When Christ/the Messiah restores all things, one of those things will be that singular spiritual language. Now, Christ has won the right of restoration, but has yet to return to enforce it in the here and now. That's our job, we are to be His patrol deputies and enforce His will in the here and now. And we do that by prayer, intercession, and the gifts of the Spirit. For example, God never intended us to be sick. satan gets his kicks out of being able to make us so. Christ has won the right to thwart satan and restore health. But it's up to us to touch someone and speak it into being for them. These things will end when Christ does return and restores everything. IE, the gift of healing will cease when people no longer get sick. And in the future, spiritual language will be our native language and English will be known as the tongue.

I understand skeptisicm. But I caution against blaspheme. This issue more than any other is a very slippery slope.

If you are a Mormon, you do not even know what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is.

If you are a Mormon, you do not even know WHO the Holy Spirit is.

If you are a Mormon, you have not ever received the Holy Spirit.

I assure you, LDS teaches the doctrines of demons, please repent and come to the Real Jesus Christ.

As for how GOD heals, since the purpose for the sign gifts has been completed, it is in Answer to Prayer.

James 5:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

 

[VCO]

That's a misunderstanding I see a lot. A gift of healing is not a gift of immortality. Pretty much everyone the Apostles healed, and even those Jesus healed, went on to die of something anyway. It's a sign and wonder meant to birth and grow faith, not to bestow eternal physical life. I hear you that there's a lot of hyperbole and not a lot of documentation, but to a large degree that's just how it works. You're asking for worldly evidence of spiritual things... and this world only testifies to itself. Believing is seeing, not the other way around.

2 and a half years ago my sister in law came down with a very deadly and aggressive cancer. They gave her 5 months, saying the most anyone has lasted is 2 years. She was covered in prayer, took chemo like it was nothing, and 5 months later was declared 100% free of all evidence of it. It brought faith to many and according to her doctors she had achieved the miracle.

It has now recently come back to her. And it will claim her life. Does that make the miracle before meaningless and moot? No, that was a sign and wonder that did the job it was intended to do at the time it was needed. But it was not a get out of jail free card. The flesh must still die on this side to be redeemed on the other. Very very very few of us will ever escape that, and really, you don't want to be around when that happens.



See, now, this is where one gets in trouble. Pretty much everything under the sun is forgivable except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Just to review, a group of elders was saying Jesus did His miracles by the power of satan. The gist being that attributing the things of the Holy Spirit to satan is unforgivable. Now I'll give you that a lot, and I mean a lot, of the stuff you see going on is faked, or over the top (that's why Paul specifically told a bunch of them to put a lid on it). But you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater here. My life is a testament to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I will defend them to the grave. They are, absolutely and without doubt, real and in effect today. But the enemy doesn't want you to know that, so he buries it in a bunch of crap. And what happens again, when we speak satan's crap?

What if I told you that what we today call tongues, is really our native language? Think about it - Man had a singular spiritual language at creation, that existed until the tower of Babel. When Christ/the Messiah restores all things, one of those things will be that singular spiritual language. Now, Christ has won the right of restoration, but has yet to return to enforce it in the here and now. That's our job, we are to be His patrol deputies and enforce His will in the here and now. And we do that by prayer, intercession, and the gifts of the Spirit. For example, God never intended us to be sick. satan gets his kicks out of being able to make us so. Christ has won the right to thwart satan and restore health. But it's up to us to touch someone and speak it into being for them. These things will end when Christ does return and restores everything. IE, the gift of healing will cease when people no longer get sick. And in the future, spiritual language will be our native language and English will be known as the tongue.

I understand skeptisicm. But I caution against blaspheme. This issue more than any other is a very slippery slope.

><>t<><

If you are a Christian, you have great difficulty telling the genuine miraculous gifts from the modern day counterfeits.

Like Dave Hunt once said, "You are setting yourselves up to fall for lying signs and wonders of the Antichrist."

I HIGHLY recommend you read Dave Hunt's books, "The Seduction of Christianity" and "Beyond the Seduction of Christianity"; as well as Dr. John MacArthur's books "Charismatic Chaos" and "Speaking in Tongues".