Mormons / Latter Day Saints

T_Laurich · Aug 18, 2014

I have no clue where the debate lies, but if there is a mormon out there reading all of this. I want you to know, we do not hate you. We do not wish to belittle you or make you look like a fool. We are not trying to hurt you in any way.

I know that Mormonism can be more than just a belief but is a way of life. I was Mormon, I was temple worthy, I was baptized at the age of 8. I was brought up singing all the little hymns and at around 5 years old I went up and bared my testimony in front of the whole church. All I said was "Jesus Christ is real, and I know this church is true." Then I sat back down. In fact I did it every month, to the point where my mom asked me to stop doing it.

My mother was the head of the childrens ward, my father was the cub scout leader and in charge of the young men. I went to every activity under the book.

Now guys, I want you to know... I know that LDS is and can become like a family. I know that when my parents started having doubts about Joseph Smith that they did not drop everything but continued to go on for years, only because of the family mentality of the church. And because how amazing the people are.

But I have to plead and beg you guys, compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. I know that one of the biggest teachings of the Church is that the bible has been corrupted by men and thus Joseph Smith was guided into finding the books written by Mormon to restore the Church of Christ. But I urge you, pick up a little bible for $10, and read it in contrast to the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, D&C, Book of Abraham. I beg you to not use the Joseph Smith revised version of the bible. But to use a KJV.

I love you guys, and I know the Church seems like a whole lot of love. But the Love Jesus Christ has for you outweighs any love the Church can give you. Jesus Christs Love is not superficial. (I am sorry if I hurt you with that word, but I think you guys can understand where I am coming from.)

[video=youtube;G1mFdO1wB08]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1mFdO1wB08[/video]

Dan_473 · Aug 18, 2014

VCO said:

It's not a matter of how many times we talk about every book being validated... What I'm asking is why think that the 66 book bible found in most Protestant churches (I'm thinking that's what you're saying) contains the validated books, and only them... If we say it was put together by godly people who knew of the apostle's miracles, which people are you talking about... Different people had different Bibles in different parts of history... Also, which versions of those books are validated? The longer ending of Mark, which has the verse about confirming, is very questionable, so the text people say...

Dan_473 · Aug 18, 2014

daniel606 said:

In Sept. 1823, Joseph was visited by an angel who called himself Moroni. Moroni told him that he had lived about 420 AD and had prepared a record of his people starting in Jerusalem 600 BC and ending in Mexico City in about 420 AD. This record talked about the kings from the beginning, the prophets of God among the people, their culture, religion, warfare, government, animals, etc. Moroni told him where he had buried the plates and gave Joseph many instructions over the years, but especially in the beginning, preparing him to translate this record into English and present it to the world.

It is from this angel, who lived and died and knew this ancient people that told Joseph these things and he just rehearsed what he had learned from the angel to his family.

Of course much of this information eventually made it into the Book of Mormon 5 or 6 years later. It was important information.

Joseph Smith was a 22 year old farm boy from upstate New York, with a 3rd grade education. Yet he produced a 531 page book on a topic and people that not even any great or famous American professor or explorer knew anything about. Over the years it has been published into 87 languages in full and another 25 in part. There have now been over 150,000,000 copies distributed around the world and it is one of the most widely printed books in the world. Of course the Bible is the most printed in the world.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon both teach us of Jesus Christ. They both testify of his Divinity. They both tell of his birth, life, teachings, death, and resurrection. The Book of Mormon does not add to the Bible, for it is its own stand-alone book. But it does add to the knowledge base of Jesus Christ and how he visited a part of the House of Israel here in the Americas, what he taught them and how he blessed them. It is worth the read.

Is Mexico city the current thinking of where the bom ends? Myself, I don't believe the bom came from God... What's the thinking on how the plates get up to NY state?

VCO · Aug 18, 2014

T_Laurich said:

AMEN! AMEN! Thank you! For posting that Video. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is a must watch, for everyone on this Thread. Very solid evidence that the Book of Mormon is a work of Fiction, made up by Joseph Smith. Why would he do that and then put all of his energies into convincing his followers that the so-called Angel Moroni gave it to him? He got his followers to support and enable his addiction to polygamy, ultimately marrying 34 wives, didn't he? The Wives of Joseph Smith

Yes we love them, and want them to come and received the Real Jesus Christ of the Bible, as their personal LORD, which means Master.

RickyZ · Aug 18, 2014

VCO said:

The response of mine that you responded to here was actually a divergence from the Mormon debate, and addressed Dan and VCO's assumptions on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It really wasn't part of the Mormon debate. Sorry to derail (my own thread)!

RickyZ · Aug 18, 2014

VCO said:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

If you follow God's word, seek the gift of discernment, and practice it, then telling the genuine miraculous gifts from the modern day counterfeits isn't that difficult.

Again you toss the baby with the bathwater.

VCO · Aug 18, 2014

RickyZ said:

What you do not realize, is I was caught up in the Charismatic movement at one time. My wife was raised Pentecostal, and she came to the conclusion it was ALL counterfeit gifts before I did. I started a in depth a study to prove her wrong, but after about two weeks, I validated that she was right, it was all counterfeit gifts. By then her sisters accused me of leading their sister, my wife, astray. THEY CHALLENGED ME to write an in depth explanation, trying to prove their gift of tongues was not the real McCoy. I took their challenge VERY SERIOUSLY, and studied the subject of Tongues exclusively for 6 months, before I ever put the pen to the paper. I wrote a 12 page, #10 font, Word.doc that I entitled The Gift of Tongues - A non-charismatic understanding. I could have easily written a book, with all the info that I had crammed in my head, but the Holy Spirit told me, if they will not listen to these twelve pages, they will not listen to any additional information that I could add. So I called it Finished, with my head still reeling with additional information.

To make a LONG STORY SHORT, I did a VERY THOROUGH INVESTIGATION, INCLUDING using several versions of the Bible, Encyclopedias, Dictionaries, Commentaries, Word Studies, several Books, Sermons on Tape, personal interviews from both camps, etc.; and I found that the dirty bath water did not have a baby in it, it was only a rubber doll.

RickyZ · Aug 18, 2014

VCO said:

What you do not realize, is I was caught up in the Charismatic movement at one time. My wife was raised Pentecostal, and she came to the conclusion it was ALL counterfeit gifts before I did. I started a in depth a study to prove her wrong, but after about two weeks, I validated that she was right, it was all counterfeit gifts. By then her sisters accused me of leading their sister, my wife, astray. THEY CHALLENGED ME to write an in depth explanation, trying to prove their gift of tongues was not the real McCoy. I took their challenge VERY SERIOUSLY, and studied the subject of Tongues exclusively for 6 months, before I ever put the pen to the paper. I wrote a 12 page, #10 font, Word.doc that I entitled The Gift of Tongues - A non-charismatic understanding. I could have easily written a book, with all the info that I had crammed in my head, but the Holy Spirit told me, if they will not listen to these twelve pages, they will not listen to any additional information that I could add. So I called it Finished, with my head still reeling with additional information.

To make a LONG STORY SHORT, I did a VERY THOROUGH INVESTIGATION, INCLUDING using several versions of the Bible, Encyclopedias, Dictionaries, Commentaries, Word Studies, several Books, Sermons on Tape, personal interviews from both camps, etc.; and I found that the dirty bath water did not have a baby in it, it was only a rubber doll.

Well there's your problem. You have a six month paper on why the world denies the gifts. I have 50 plus years of speaking it as a native language. In your world miracles don't happen. In mine, they do. If all you found was the rubby ducky decoy then you need to keep diving. And ask yourself why you are so intent on denying the power of God. Maybe so you won't share in any? Now who would want that for you..?

VCO · Aug 18, 2014

Dan_473 said:

Because we absolutely believe GOD, that there was Nothing to be added after John wrote, the book of Revelation.
We also have the HOLY SPIRIT in us, Confirming and teaching us all things. You should try it, but you will have to repent of Mormonism and surrender complete control to the JESUS CHRIST of the Bible as your Master, to receive the Holy Spirit in you.

Sure as older manuscripts were found, and the language changes over time newer translations were necessary. The last verse in Mark is based on the oldest manuscript found. Yes we believe the older the manuscript the better, but unfortunately none of the hand written originals remain. HOWEVER, a HOLY GOD who can give every word perfectly through the minds of mortal men in the first place, can also KEEP them perfect through Translators who are under the control of the Holy Spirit. A remarkable piece of evidence validating this is the Dead Sea Scrolls:

"Biblical Scrolls Fragments of every book of the Hebrew Bible (except the Book of Esther) were found in the Qumran caves, the most famous of the Dead Sea Scrolls sites. Remarkably, some of these ancient copies are identical to the traditional text of the Hebrew Bible that is used today."

The Dead Sea Scrolls probably were a complete set at one time, and were probably being used as a lending library, which would explain why there were scrolls missing, when the Caves were abandoned, probably due to war.

Please watch the video in post #121 by T_Laurich, above. It will answer your questions on why the Book of Mormon, cannot be considered ALSO GOD's Word, far better than I can.

VCO · Aug 18, 2014

RickyZ said:

NO, when the Apostles use the SIGN GIFT of Tongues THERE were always unbelieving Jews present, because the JEWS required a sign before they would believe the Apostles spoke from GOD. THOSE JEWS present the day of Pentecost were from every known country in the world. EVERY ONE OF THEM SIMULTANEOUSLY HEARD THE APOSTLES SPEAK IN THEIR OWN DIALEKTOS. Anything less is a counterfeit of GOD's miracle sign gift of TONGUES.

Look it up and read through it slowly. Your experience DOES NOT MATCH Scripture. It matches what the pagans did in the Greek Mystery Religions for 400 years prior to Christ, even Plato referred to it as Divine Ecstasy. Even the Mormons believe in speaking in the kind of tongues you do, and I bet you cannot tell the difference. ASK THEM.

1 Corinthians 13:6-10 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

THE COMPLETED HOLY SCRIPTURES is the perfection that came.

daniel606 · Aug 18, 2014

There are a couple of schools of thought about where it all took place. The predominant thought is that after the great battles and the Nephites were wiped out in the Mexico City area around 420 AD, a group of around 15, headed by Moroni, took the sacred records and went north, eventually coming to the present day city of Palmyra, New York. There he wrote his farewell book and then deposited the plates on a hill which we call today, Cumorah. Moroni lived approximately 30 years after the collapse of the Nephite empire, so it was well within reason that he could have made the trek north in plenty of time within that 30 years.

In 1823, this same Moroni was sent by the Lord to a young Joseph Smith, who was given the plates and translated them into English. The Book of Mormon has now been translated into 87 languages in whole and another 25 in part. It is one of the most widely printed and distributed books in the world. Of course the Bible is first.

Kerry · Aug 18, 2014

and all this makes what difference?

daniel606 · Aug 18, 2014

It would be intellectually and spiritually more truthful to say: Because we absolutely believe GOD, that there was Nothing to be added to the Book of Revelations.

Revelations is a stand-alone book. When John wrote the book of Revelations there was no book called the Bible. The Bible did not get compiled for over 200 years in the future. We just don't know, but it is even possible that John wrote his gospel and his 3 epistles after he came back from the isle of Patmos. If this is right, it would be sufficient to defeat any claim that the warnings in Revelations were somehow connected to the whole Bible.

When Christians make this claim, it is usually to discredit the Book of Mormon, but what they do not realize is that it defeats any attempt by God to bring more knowledge about Himself to earth. Do you really think that a few pages of information is all that God has to offer his people? Do you really think that God has nothing more to say? Do you really think that God no longer talks to men today because some men suggested that nothing can be added. There have been prophets since the beginning, did that all end with the apostles? The answer is no.

RickyZ · Aug 19, 2014

VCO, you don't even know what my experiences are. Since you assume to know such things without evidence, I have to believe that a lot of your assumptions are so based. But whatever; You keep writing papers, I'll keep being available to the Holy Spirit, and in the end when we meet before Him it won't really matter any more.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

daniel606 said:

No it is not a stand alone book, it is intertwined with prophecies from Danial, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and a few others. GOD intended HIS WORD to be ONE BOOK.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 30:5-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

John is NOT the Author, the LORD IS. John is just the secretary that took the dictation from our LORD and GOD Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:17-19 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;

Revelation 2:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, he that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks:

Revelation 2:8 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These things saith the first and the last, who was dead, and lived again:

Revelation 2:12 (ASV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword:

Revelation 2:18 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like unto burnished brass:

Revelation 3:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead.

Revelation 3:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth:

Revelation 3:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Revelation 10:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.”

Revelation 14:13 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 19:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

Revelation 21:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

NO, JOHN is not the AUTHOR writing a stand alone book, OUR GOD the Holy Trinity dictated it. HE intended every word to go with the REST OF HIS RECORDED WORDS.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

RickyZ said:

That is how absolutely certain I am that the genuine gift of Tongues, ceased when confirming the New Testament was finished. I no longer need to hear the details, as I have been down that road discussing the charismatic experience with SO MANY in the past, and it never changes. They all put experience and feelings over and above what the Scriptures say.

How will you be able to tell the difference when the Antichrist comes and starts doing miracles and speaking in tongues? They will look the same, AND they will sound the same.

Here is an excerpt from my study:

Like Dave Hunt once said, "You are setting yourselves up to believe the lying signs and wonders of the Antichrist."

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

SolidGround · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

Did God put Himself in that box?
Or did the experience of others place Him in that box for you?

God does what He wills. He gives the gifts He chooses.
I do not support the modern charismatic movement,
but to deny the power is not Truth.

Test the spirits,
Don't just ignore them (or condemn them) without testing.

There is no Scripture for Cessationism.
If you believe they ceased, then your study should be in much testing.

VCO · Aug 19, 2014

SolidGround said:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

The completion of the New Testament is the perfect that came.

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

What you do not realize, is I was caught up in the Charismatic movement at one time. My wife was raised Pentecostal, and she came to the conclusion it was ALL counterfeit gifts before I did. I started a in depth a study to prove her wrong, but after about two weeks, I validated that she was right, it was all counterfeit gifts. By then her sisters accused me of leading their sister, my wife, astray. THEY CHALLENGED ME to write an in depth explanation, trying to prove their gift of tongues was not the real McCoy. I took their challenge VERY SERIOUSLY, and studied the subject of Tongues exclusively for 6 months, before I ever put the pen to the paper. I wrote a 12 page, #10 font, Word.doc that I entitled The Gift of Tongues - A non-charismatic understanding. I could have easily written a book, with all the info that I had crammed in my head, but the Holy Spirit told me, if they will not listen to these twelve pages, they will not listen to any additional information that I could add. So I called it Finished, with my head still reeling with additional information.

To make a LONG STORY SHORT, I did a VERY THOROUGH INVESTIGATION, INCLUDING using several versions of the Bible, Encyclopedias, Dictionaries, Commentaries, Word Studies, several Books, Sermons on Tape, personal interviews from both camps, etc.; and I found that the dirty bath water did not have a baby in it, it was only a rubber doll.

Is it just tongues that you feel are not for today, or other gifts... Like, discerning of spirits?

Dan_473 · Aug 19, 2014

VCO said:

Well, the verse in revelation probably refers to the scroll of revelation itself... Handwritten copies of the bible usually being too large to be contained in a single unit... Just the ot taking several scrolls... Of course a person can choose to believe this or that text is the perfect one.. Some people choose to believe in a particular translation...I too sense the spirit's leading and guiding... That must be the spirit bring the whole body into the image of Christ... I can't repent of Mormonism because I'm not Mormon... I don't think the bom came from God... What is the oldest manuscript of Mark found, and is it a perfect copy? So, about translators, do you believe God inspired the lxx? Is there a perfect English translation that is God's perfect word? I know some people believe that about the KJV...

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