The new covenant with Christ Jesus

[Elin]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Same answer here. . .and I'll raise it to

unless one has difficulty
committing to a Scriptueal presentation of Heb 9-10 in the context
of the whole book.

Indeed.

Worship in the earthly tabernacle i.e. temple worship was set aside and became obsolete.
Sacrificial law was changed.

Your assertion falls somewhat short of a Scriptural presentation in the context of the whole book.

Keeping in mind that assertions without demonstration are without merit.

And also keeping in mind that the old covenant also was made obsolete (Heb 8:13)
and the law was set aside (Heb 7:18-19) and abolished (Eph 2:14-15).

 

[RedTent]

Actually, the seven covenants in the Bible are:
Noahic
2 Abrahamic (one is your Palestinian)
Sinaitic (Mosaic)
Phinehas
Davidic
New

Three remain in force (Noahic, Abrahamic, New) the others have either been fulfilled, or made obsolete.

Someday you will come face to face with the Lord and understand about all your counseling of people looking to know the Lord about how obsolete part of this knowledge is, or to discount anything told to the Hebrews when God set them apart to help us, or any of this "down with what the Lord says" and about how fulfilled means it has been disposed of stuff you truly believe in.

It is frightening that we both search, both try, and are so opposite in what we see!! One of us is wrong. I feel that my saying to learn, be open, don't deny if it comes from God sounds more in keeping with all of God and your destroy, obsolete, it is done with so don't build better but get rid of does not fit as well.

 

[just-me]

Studying the covenants is a good thing, but I noticed when I studied the subject several months ago, there is a difference between the covenants made with the individuals like David, Noah, etc. and the covenants He made with mankind as a whole. Not sure I explained that right but what I found as I studied can be seen on this thread: The New Covenant Wine Is All of God’s Word
or here: Covenants

Good study!!

I see that some people have changed the thread name in their individual posts. It has happened to me before, and then I was unable to access any pages beyond the first page. We will see what happens after the thread I stated has been violated in the headings of the posts. I ask that those who have respect leave the title as it was originally posted for good reason. If you want to change the thread name to it's original, you will have to go into "advanced" and change the title.

I named the thread in respect to this scripture.
Matthew 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It is so much more personal that way. The word "OF" puts a certain distance between our Savior and His children. "With" Jesus is much better, don't ya think?

 

[Elin]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Actually, the seven covenants in the Bible are:
Noahic
Abrahamic (your Palestinian)
Abrahamic (spoken to Abraham and Christ only)
Sinaitic (Mosaic)
Phinehas
Davidic
New

Three remain in force (Noahic, Abrahamic spoken to Christ, New)
the others have either been fulfilled, or made obsolete.

Someday you will come face to face with the Lord and understand about all your counseling of people looking to know the Lord about how obsolete part of this knowledge is, or to discount anything told to the Hebrews when God set them apart to help us, or any of this
"down with what the Lord says" and about how fulfilled means it has been disposed of stuff you truly believe in.

It is frightening that we both search, both try, and are so opposite in what we see!! One of us is wrong. I feel that my saying to learn, be open, don't deny if it comes from God sounds more in keeping with all of God and
your destroy, obsolete, it isdone with so don't build better but get rid of does not fit as well.

You have me confused with someone else

 

[chubbena]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Your assertion falls somewhat short of a Scriptural presentation in the context of the whole book.

Keeping in mind that assertions without demonstration are without merit.

And also keeping in mind that the old covenant also was made obsolete (Heb 8:13)
and the law was set aside (Heb 7:18-19) and abolished (Eph 2:14-15).

Hebrews 9 and 10 explained well enough and we are coming in circles.

This thread must be onto something important someone has to do something to ruin it.

 

[just-me]

From post 323 this thread was named the way it was for good reason. please be respectful.

I ask that those who have respect leave the title as it was originally posted for good reason. If you want to change the thread name to it's original, you will have to go into "advanced" and change the title.

I named the thread in respect to this scripture.
Matthew 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It is so much more personal that way. The word "OF" puts a certain distance between our Savior and His children. "With" Jesus is much better, don't ya think?

 

[chubbena]

Good study!!

I see that some people have changed the thread name in their individual posts. It has happened to me before, and then I was unable to access any pages beyond the first page. We will see what happens after the thread I stated has been violated in the headings of the posts. I ask that those who have respect leave the title as it was originally posted for good reason. If you want to change the thread name to it's original, you will have to go into "advanced" and change the title.

I named the thread in respect to this scripture.
Matthew 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It is so much more personal that way. The word "OF" puts a certain distance between our Savior and His children. "With" Jesus is much better, don't ya think?

I remember someone said "Jesus was under the yoke of the Old Covenant" recently on this forum. I agree He was when He spoke in Matthew 11:29-30.
Some has to make the decision whether to believe in the Word of God said before the Crucifixion.

 

[just-me]

I remember someone said "Jesus was under the yoke of the Old Covenant" recently on this forum. I agree He was when He spoke in Matthew 11:29-30.
Some has to make the decision whether to believe in the Word of God said before the Crucifixion.

Good point. I have mentioned in the past that all Jesus taught before His death was during the time of the "Old Covenant." If the Old Covenant has waxed cold and ready to vanish away so have the teachings of Christ Jesus. I cannot accept that.

The shedding of blood commemorated all the covenants in scripture including God making skins to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness. In relation to the teachings of Jesus and His sacrifice for the remission of sins, it is obvious that the temple/tabernacle is the center of all covenants since it was erected by Moses according to the instruction from God.

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean , sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator . For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth . Hebrews 9:13-17

 

[Elin]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Your assertion falls somewhat short of a Scriptural presentation in the context of the whole book.

Keeping in mind that assertions without demonstration are without merit.

And also keeping in mind that the old covenant also was made obsolete (Heb 8:13)
and the law was set aside (Heb 7:18-19) and abolished (Eph 2:14-15).

Hebrews 9 and 10 explained well enough

Indeed.

And feel free to address the demonstration in post #283, here.

 

[royalscot]

No. The only thing they lost was the physical remnants of the temple made by the hand of man according to the ordinances that came from God Almighty. The Spiritual aspects however still remain. When the writer of Hebrews talks about the temple in chapter 8 verses 1-6 he follows through with his explanations starting with verse 7. (I'm leaving out the added word "covenant" in the next 3 verses that I will quote for better understanding.

" For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

Then in verse 13 along with the 1st verse in the next chapter we read, " In that he saith , A new, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Then verily the first had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary."

By using the word "new" He has made the first covenant "old." Something being made old is aging and ready to vanish all together. So when speaking of the first we see it's related to ordinances of a worldly sanctuary being the physical temple that was established with the "old" covenant. Now, we are the temple of the living God, and our high Priest is Jesus Christ.

Then the writer goes on after the 1st verse in chapter 9 to explain the ordinances of the old temple and how they are inferior to the new covenant which is better and finalized.

everything is lost, full law, or nothing. you cant follow part law, and act 15 all ready proves you wrong concerning full law or part law, for a gentile believer.
wrong.
god never took the temple down, so following the old covenent, you need a building, or did you miss that part, the hebrew writer spoke about. [SUP]9 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you."21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. chapter 9
[/SUP]that would be animals blood, cow, sheep etc

[SUP]and this is at the end of chapter 8
3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
70 ad is ready to fully disappear.

if you continue reading to the end, of chapter 8, shows your wrong again, and this was before rome.[/SUP]
[SUP]3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

again proven , god already said. ready to disappear.
ie 60 ad is about the date the writer wrote hewbrews, [/SUP]

 

[royalscot]

The Bible speaks of seven different covenants, Abrahamic, Palestinian, Mosaic, Davidic, Adamic, Noahic and New. Other covenants are mentioned, such as the salt covenant. According to you, God was pretty busy taking back any agreement God ever made between God and man, or else you are quite busy cancelling any part you have in any agreement with the Lord but one. What do you do when a rainbow shows in the sky as a sign of one of the covenants?

yes, but, i am interested, in the one, that brought eternal life.to gentiles/jewish christains. the rainbow will still shine and have its meaning on earth. the new covenent that jesus, brought will shine through out etenity.

 

[just-me]

everything is lost, full law, or nothing. you cant follow part law, and act 15 all ready proves you wrong concerning full law or part law, for a gentile believer.
wrong.
god never took the temple down, so following the old covenent, you need a building, or did you miss that part, the hebrew writer spoke about. [SUP]9 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you."21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. chapter 9
[/SUP]that would be animals blood, cow, sheep etc

[SUP]and this is at the end of chapter 8
3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
70 ad is ready to fully disappear.

if you continue reading to the end, of chapter 8, shows your wrong again, and this was before rome.[/SUP]
[SUP]3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

again proven , god already said. ready to disappear.
ie 60 ad is about the date the writer wrote hewbrews, [/SUP]

All Jesus taught before His death was Old Covenant. Have those principles vanished also?
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator .
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth .

You may have misunderstood. The physical temple ordinances of the old covenant have been totally replaced by a new covenant, and new temple, and a High Priest that will never die, putting an end to physical blood letting. The law of love in Leviticus 19:15-18, and Deuteronomy 6:1-6 have not vanished away.

 

[royalscot]

Please elaborate. I asked the question because I don't remember reading Him saying any covenant He's made was temporary. I'm convinced that the covenants from Adam to this new one only reveal His Holiness first to Adam then to all the world and how He always wants man to be the same and without such no one can be with Him.

ask paul, gal 3
[SUP]10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them."11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith."12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"--14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[/SUP]
ask the hewbrew writer, who was a follower of full law, with stone temple.
[SUP]and this is at the end of chapter 8
3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
wrote about 60 ad. temple (stone) taken down 70ad. [/SUP]

 

[royalscot]

All Jesus taught before His death was Old Covenant. Have those principles vanished also?
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator .
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth .

You may have misunderstood. The physical temple ordinances of the old covenant have been totally replaced by a new covenant, and new temple, and a High Priest that will never die, putting an end to physical blood letting. The law of love in Leviticus 19:15-18, and Deuteronomy 6:1-6 have not vanished away.

then we agree, to the first part.

jesus forfilled everything, no need to continue in jewish traditions. etc
this is ware you err, firstly the hewbrew writer was jewish. (70 ad is after this book was wrote.)
jesus standing in the temple said in 3 days i will rebuild this temple. what temple is he talking about.
[SUP]22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.rev 21
[/SUP]

 

[just-me]

ask paul, gal 3
[SUP]10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them."11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith."12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"--14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[/SUP]
ask the hewbrew writer, who was a follower of full law, with stone temple.
[SUP]and this is at the end of chapter 8
3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
wrote about 60 ad. temple (stone) taken down 70ad. [/SUP]

I think I can see where you're coming from and it would be very good for all of us to agree that the New temple along with a New covenant was erected by Jesus Christ when He rose from the grave. In so doing, it was only a matter of time that the physical remnants of the old temple would vanish and decay.

Still, man lives by every word that has ever been spoken by God. As during the Old Covenant days, the shedding of blood has commemorated all the covenants that God has initiated with Noah, Abraham, and the children of Israel at Sinai.

After the first tabernacle was erected by Moses according to God's instructions, those blood sacrifices took place within the confines of the tabernacle/temple. It all is centered around the plan of salvation, and this plan had to be initiated step by step according to God's divine and perfect judgments.

1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

It is interesting to note that the day Jesus entered Jerusalem is the exact day (during the time of Moses) that the lamb was secured for Passover.
It is interesting to note that the day Jesus was crucifed was the exact day the Passover lamb was killed.
It is interesting to note that after 3 days from the exodus from Egypt that Moses was instructed to cut down a tree and make bitter water fit to drink.
It is interesting to note that Jesus rose from the grave after 3 days. He gives to us the living water of the New covenant.

John 4:10-14
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink ; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst ; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[just-me]

then we agree, to the first part.

jesus forfilled everything, no need to continue in jewish traditions. etc
this is ware you err, firstly the hewbrew writer was jewish. (70 ad is after this book was wrote.)
jesus standing in the temple said in 3 days i will rebuild this temple. what temple is he talking about.
[SUP]22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.rev 21
[/SUP]

Concerning the Hebrew writer was Jewish, I don't quite understand your point. So was John, Peter, James, Matthew, Mark, and even Paul. And yes, 70 AD is after the book was written that's why the writer of Hebrews 8:13 says "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;" (Philippians 3:4-5 Paul speaking)

 

[chubbena]

ask paul, gal 3
[SUP]10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them."11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith."12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"--14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[/SUP]
ask the hewbrew writer, who was a follower of full law, with stone temple.
[SUP]and this is at the end of chapter 8
3 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
wrote about 60 ad. temple (stone) taken down 70ad. [/SUP]

My question was: I don't recall Him saying His covenant is temporary, is to be replaced at a later stage or anything like that at the time He established each and everyone with man. Do you?
I didn't see your answer to the question.
That said, you have pointed out very well that He has made the first obsolete by allowing the temple to be destroyed in 70AD.
Thus many aspect of the law cannot possibly be carried out but does it mean everything spoken through Moses are nullified?
One might refer to the history of the nation of Israel: The first temple was destroyed. Were they to ordered to disregard the law or were they told that it was because of their sin against the law? What did the Israelites do when they gathered together at the second temple? Didn't they read the book of law and repent?
Was the law written in the heart part of the promise of the new covenant?
Did God speak through Paul to cancel His law after all these? Or did He speak through Paul that the law is a curse if one cannot abide all and that only through Christ could this curse be lifted?

 

[royalscot]

Concerning the Hebrew writer was Jewish, I don't quite understand your point. So was John, Peter, James, Matthew, Mark, and even Paul. And yes, 70 AD is after the book was written that's why the writer of Hebrews 8:13 says "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;" (Philippians 3:4-5 Paul speaking)

if you know the saviour or not , then ask history. that prove you wrong. by 10 year. are you a j/witness by the way.

 

[royalscot]

My question was: I don't recall Him saying His covenant is temporary, is to be replaced at a later stage or anything like that at the time He established each and everyone with man. Do you?
I didn't see your answer to the question.
That said, you have pointed out very well that He has made the first obsolete by allowing the temple to be destroyed in 70AD.
Thus many aspect of the law cannot possibly be carried out but does it mean everything spoken through Moses are nullified?
One might refer to the history of the nation of Israel: The first temple was destroyed. Were they to ordered to disregard the law or were they told that it was because of their sin against the law? What did the Israelites do when they gathered together at the second temple? Didn't they read the book of law and repent?
Was the law written in the heart part of the promise of the new covenant?
Did God speak through Paul to cancel His law after all these? Or did He speak through Paul that the law is a curse if one cannot abide all and that only through Christ could this curse be lifted?

then pray and ask god, when did i become your answer to your disbeleif.

 

[Elin]

if you know the saviour or not , then ask history. that prove you wrong. by 10 year. are you a j/witness by the way.

Is that where all the ignorance comes from?