A Biblical Church

SparkleEyes · Sep 18, 2014

Ever heard this saying.....Find the "perfect" church (see OP's description to see what a perfect church is), join/attend/become a member (whatever) and suddenly it isn't perfect anymore.

Moral of the story - the perfect church doesn't exist because man is going to mess it up. And you (or me) might be the one (or one of many) who messes it up!

No matter how Biblical, knowledgeable, careful, etc you might be, we are imperfect and ALWAYS mess up God's perfect plan for a Biblical church.

Just sayin'.......

presidente · Sep 18, 2014

I agree with most of the list in the opening post. I'd just like to add that churches can have different gifts present. It's possible that no one in a church has the gift of prophecy. The Corinthians apparently came behind in no spiritual gift. Paul does make the presence of prophets and other members of the body who can prophecy seem normative. If a church doesn't have the gift, it should desire for the gift to be present in the congregation.

I did not agree with a couple of your five-fold ministry quotes. I don't think someone has to be in 'five-fold ministry' to judge a case. The way I read I Corinthians 6, it would seem the least of the saints could judge a case. I know that verse can be interpreted two ways, either Paul saying the least was capable of judging or else chiding them for setting the least esteemed over the task. It does make sense if elders of the church serve as judges. There was a tradition of having church leaders judge cases centuries later, and in Israel elders could serve as judges. So it makes sense for apostles and elders to serve in this role.

You associated the laying on of hands with the five-fold ministry. I don't see where the laying on of hands is particularly associated with the evangelist ministry either. I can't think of an example of it except that Philip received the laying on of hands. In the New Testament, apostles and elders laid hands on people. In the Old Testament, Moses laid hands on Joshua. He was a prophet but he was also the ruler of the nation. Prophets and teachers laid hands on Barabas and Saul to separate them to the work to which the Spirit called them in Acts 13.

But we also see Ananias, a brother, a disciple, laying hands on Saul of Tarsus. Saul was healed and filled with the Holy Ghost. So I don't see a good case for limiting the laying on of hands to the so-called five-fold ministry. (IMO, four-fold ministry makes more sense since one group is both pastors and teachers.)

In our modern mindset, we often think of church as the place to go and hear one pastor give one sermon. The Bible doesn't teach that. The passages that give detail show saints ministering to each other. A pastor may share a teaching, but so may many others. I Corinthians 1, the passage that most clearly deals with ministry of the word, doesn't even mention pastors or elders. We do see instructions regarding prophets and other members of the congregation speaking.

A Biblical church is a church that loves God and where the saints love one another. That may be a more key component to a church being Biblical than some of these other things. These other things out to flow out of the love. If a church lacks love and tries to do these things mechanically, I wouldn't call that a 'Biblical church.'

presidente · Sep 18, 2014

SeaBass said:

The problem with your theory is that the Bible does not teach this. There are also multiple purposes for various gifts. Speaking in tongues serves to edify the church when accompanied by interpretation. It edifies the speaker. It serves as a sign to them that believe not (a fulfilment of 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me.') Prophecy serves as a sign to them who believe. It also comforts, edifies, and exhorts. It testifies of Jesus. The miracle of feeding the five thousand showed a number of things, including God's provision. Feeding multitudes helped communicate that Jesus is the Bread of life and served as a backdrop for one of His sermons on it. Jesus reminded the disciples of it when they forgot to buy bread. But it also served the practical purpose of feeding the people right then and there.

Signs and wonders confirmed the word as it was preached, also. The Bible doesn't teach that signs and wonders confirmed the Bible one time for all. If we read Acts, signs confirming the word is a repeatable thing. The word can be preached over and over again. Signs and wonders can be repeated over and over again. When Peter went to Joppa, we don't read where he said the word he was preaching was already confirmed in Jerusalem, so he was just going to leave Aeneaus crippled. No, he did a miracle again. The Gospel continues to be preached to unsaved individuals, unreached individuals, unreached villages, and unreached peoples.

Again, this is a man-made theory. The didactic teaching of scripture trumps you theory. For to one is given one gift by the Spirit, and to another, another gift like we read in I Corinthians 12. Your theory doesn't cancel out that verse. Man-made theory doesn't cancel scripture.

For one thing, the Bible doesn't teach that, and you haven't demonstrated it. You have a theory about the Bible, not the teaching of the Bible in you corner.

You also assume that someone who works miracles does so at will, which isn't consistent with scripture. The apostles had done miracles, but they prayed for God to stretch out His hand to do signs and wonders. Apparently, they were dependent on the Lord for the miracles to occur. It wasn't just something they did purely automatically, but something they did in cooperation with God. The KJV says that Jesus could do no mighty works in His home town because of their unbelief.

There is also a major problem with your logic. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's the problem with someone who bases doctrine on experience like you are doing, at least partly, according to your post. At least someone who has seen a vision has a logical reason to draw from his experience to say that visions are real. But if someone hasn't seen a vision and concludes from that that they are not real, that's just irrational and illogical. If you haven't seen anyone work a miracle, that doesn't mean that miracles do not occur at time.

O\They could only offered excuses as to their inability to do any.
I made the offer in other threads in times past and will make the offer here again that I will pay out of my pocket first class travel expenses (back and forth) to anyone who claims that God does miracles through them to come to city I work in to a 12 story, 1000+ bed hospital and empty it out. It will cost that person nothing but a little of their time......but what is a little time compared to all the human pain and suffering that will be ended?[/QUOTE]

cfultz3 · Sep 18, 2014

Allin said:

A man, even apart from God, can agape...

Agaping a master:

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Agaping the praise of men:

Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Husbands agaping their wives:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Agaping the world:

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Agaping wages of unrighteousness:

2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

I esteem (agape) my mother and father, and because I do, I have sensational love (phileo) for them.

The_highwayman · Sep 18, 2014

Allin said:

Allin,

Proverbs 20.6 was not written in Greek, it was written in Hebrew. The word loving kindness or goodness in Proverbs is not translated as LOVE or AGAPE LOVE, because AGAPE is a Greek word. The Hebrew word for unfailing love, loving kindness, and goodness as used in Prvo 20.6 is checed and it means: goodness, kindness, faithfulness and loyalty and has nothing to do with any form of love, including AGAPE.

Who told you CHrist only has agape love?

Gal 5.22-25 says:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The greek word for Love in Vs 22 is agapē and is translated as love, Charity.

This same word is used exhaustively in the NT and in context to Gal 5.22 Paul is exhorting us that fruit of the Spirit in our lives should be AGAPE love.

Agape love is something we have if we are in Christ Jesus, because it is a fruit of the Spirit.

notuptome · Sep 18, 2014

Nice list but can a church be biblical if it does not have many of those things?

Can a church be biblical if it has no music? No building? No budget?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

iamsoandso · Sep 18, 2014

cfultz3 said:

Isaiah 46;10,,,"IF I HAVE TOLD YOU FROM THE BEGINNING,THE END THEREOF,AND FROM ANCIENT OF DAYS THE THINGS I WILL CAUSE TO COME TO PAST,,WONT MY TRUE PROFITS, TELL THE WORLD THE THINGS I SAID?",,,I know what it actually says,I said it a different way for them,but I like that you see it cfultze3,,,,

iamsoandso · Sep 18, 2014

Isaiah 46;10,,,lol,remember when we were in school and we read through the books they gave us and at the end of each chapter was a "test over what we read"?,,now we all knew that in the back of the book was the answers,,,"up-side-down" sometimes we would cheat and look at them if we couldn't figure them out,,,does the end thereof(Revaluations) stump anyone?,,,here's the answer to the first question,I'll write it down and slip it over to you when the teacher isn't looking,,,"Isaiah 46;10,,believe God,,go to the beginning,in Genesis 1;1-4;26,,this is the key to the things in the end,,,,

cfultz3 · Sep 18, 2014

iamsoandso said:

lol...Yeah...I remember those good ole answers written upside down in the back of the textbook. I like your thought here: if you want to know the ending, go to the beginning.

iamsoandso · Sep 18, 2014

cfultz3 said:

Yep,(2peter 3;8=Isaiah 46;10),,"a day" and the evening and the morning was the first day/first seal opened,,and the evening and the morning was the second day/second seal opened,,,ect.ect.,,,in the beginning he told us the end thereof,"It is a prophecy",,,the exact order of events from beginning to end.

iamsoandso · Sep 18, 2014

It makes no sense at first,,gen.3;17-19,,,"you will work all they days,till ect.",,,six days thou shalt,"do thy work",,(gen.5;29) "comfort us concerning our work/sweat of thy brow",,on the 7th day/millennium you will rest from thy "sweat of thy brow/labors",,ect.ect.,,,six sets,then rest,,from the beginning of the proficy to the end,,

mailmandan · Sep 18, 2014

Top Ten Ways You Know You're in a Bad Church

10. The church bus has gun racks

9. Staff consists of "Senior Pastor, Associate Pastor, and Socio-Pastor"

8. The Bible they use is the "Dr. Seuss Version"

7. ATM in the lobby

6. Services are B.Y.O.S. -- "Bring Your Own Snake"

5. Choir wearing leather robes

4. No cover charge, but communion is a 2 drink minimum

3. Karaoke worship time

2. Ushers ask "Smoking or Non-Smoking?"

1. The only song the church organist knows is "Innagaddadavita"

vic1980 · Sep 18, 2014

There are 7 churches spoken upon in Revelation ,only two had it right.

What did they do that was right.

God Bless

Kerry · Sep 18, 2014

vic1980 said:

The seven churches are prophetic, speaking of the churches to come such as the state church that became the Roman Catholic church to the reformation church and so on. I can'y call them all of hand, but we are between the 6th and 7th church at this time.

Kerry · Sep 18, 2014

Wait the first church was the Apostolic Church so that puts us at five at my above statement.

RedTent · Sep 18, 2014

notuptome said:

There is a BIG difference between using the formalities and rites as worship, and refusing to carry our worship through to the acts we perform every day. You cannot be part of the body of Christ and refuse to follow Him in anything you do. There is a connection. To have faith in the word is to not deny that connection.

kennethcadwell · Sep 18, 2014

RedTent said:

You are exactly right here.
We are not just to pray and go to church once or twice a week as some churches do, but you are also to show you are a follower of Christ in your every day way of life. Walking in love, forgiveness, and giving to those in need.

That is why it says we are no longer under the law, and that it is written on our hearts. It is because we should no longer look at it as laws, but a natural every day way of life. We are not bound to the sacrifices, or punishments that were part of the mosaic law for Jesus was our sacrifice and took our punishment.

Allin · Sep 19, 2014

cfultz3 said:

There goes my Greek. Thank God I come behind in that language so I can excel in others! Lol. I meant the God-Love which is why I referenced Pro. 20:6. I don't know what it is called in Greek, but in Hebrew it is 'chesed' or 'unfailing Love' (which is and means 'faithful Love'). I meant to say that only God has perfect Love, therefore, when He rebukes someone, we know for sure it is from a perfect heart. I used to think agape or/and agapao was the Greek term for the God-Love ("for God so loved the world", etc.) which alone is perfect. I guess I was wrong. Lol. I'll just stick to 'chesed'.

Allin · Sep 19, 2014

The_highwayman said:

Sounds like the Greeks don't have a word for the God-Love or perfect Love. You are right that 'chesed' is not directly translated as love because, going from God's own language to a human language, a lot gets literally 'lost in translation'. One author puts it this way: "Biblical scholars have often complained that the word חֶסֶד (chesed) in the Hebrew Bible is difficult to translate into English, because it really has no precise equivalent in our language. English versions usually try to represent it with such words as 'loving-kindness', 'mercy', 'steadfast love', and sometimes 'loyalty', but the full meaning of the word cannot be conveyed without an explanation." You see the same thing-- a need to explain meanings that cannot be translated properly across languages-- in much of the Bible. Whatever the Hebrew or Greek may mean, they are trying to convey God's perfect Love-- the God-Love that lays down its life (i.e. its reputation, time, well-being, and finances) for others:

1. "God so loved (God-Love) the world that He gave His only Son..." (Jn. 3:16.)

2. "This is how we know Love (God-Love): He laid down His life for us, and we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (1Jn. 3:16).

Yes, Christians who walk in the Spirit (have the fruit of the Spirit) can have the God-Love for others (whether it's called agape or whatever). The Love is from God, not human. (I distinguish Love that is from God from love from humans or other things with the capital L or little l.) There is a difference between God's all-knowing and wise Love and our finest love.

Allin · Sep 19, 2014

presidente said:

I agree.

It's not helpful when the minister within each church is making 'church rules' without seeking God. When the widows of the Grecian Jews (Greek-speaking Jews) were overlooked in the daily distribution (I guess of food and other things), the Grecian Jews complained against the Hebrews (native Jews). This came before the apostles who told them all to pick seven trustworthy and godly men to do the work. They explained why they would not be a part of that particular work directly: "We will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word" (Acts 6:4). I believe that every church needs ministers (plural) who will give time continually to prayer also before making 'church rules' which, coming from a person's mind or good intentions, tend to restrict and confine and bind rather than release, free, and empower people.

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