Stop Arguing about Law under Grace

[cfultz3]

But what can you expect from a poor Christian, being graced with so much law on CC?

Or a poor Christian who would argue that he is without Law...even the Spirit has Law which is in need to be followed...As servants, we do the will of our Master (Lord). If not?

 

[Kerry]

Law equals works and what work can you do save one and that is to place faith in the work of the cross.

 

[just-me]

What I'm saying concerning what I posted before yours, is that the thread had nothing to do with the law. But there was one anti law person that brought the subject up without provocation. So I ask this. What can you expect from a poor Christian who is being graced with so much purposeful contention of preconceived ideas that they must argue about things that are not being addressed in the OP? So I ask again. Who is behind this (adding) instigation?

Starbucks? Maybe if some would just skip that extra cup of coffee.

Ah that makes sense! That's where all the liberals go for coffee.
According to the Starbucks blog, she was chosen as the logo because Starbucks was looking for a nautical theme to capture the spirit of Seattle. Remember that this was back in 1971, when Seattle was known for sailing and seaports instead of grunge rock, rain and hipsters.
In mythology, sirens are consistently seen as a personification of the ocean -- and that's not a good thing. . According to scholars, they would sing an "irresistibly sweet" song that sailors who crossed paths with a siren would become so obsessed that they would crash into the rocks and die.

​

 

[gzusfrk]

And I thought they call it that because of the price of their coffee.... Star- Bucks.

 

[Elin]

Keeping in mind that
--Jesus was born and lived under the law,

He taught against unjust laws such as an eye for an eye.

In saying God's laws are unjust,
you are saying the Divine Lawgiver is unjust, which is blasphemy.

You don't know the OT as well as you think you do.

--those to whom he preached were under the law,
--the superiority of the new covenant was not revealed until after Jesus' death

The Gospel of jesus Christ includes mercy when and where ever it may be given, this includes
excusing some under the law from its punishment.

Yes, the gospel of Jesus is mercy to those who believe in him
because he has paid the penalty for their guilt.

There is no mercy where the penalty has not been paid,
for God's mercy is always in accordance with his perfect justice.

--it was not Jesus who said the curse of the law was abolished on the cross.

If all scripture is inspired by Jesus Christ then He did.

All Scripture is God-breathed, but Jesus is not the one who spoke those words.

Now, because of the gift of Jesus Christ's cleansing Blood, we are free of the curse of the law, but as Paul teaches our new faith establishes the law.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. . .

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we establish the law." (Ro 3:28-31)

Yes, Paul's teaching on justification by faith apart from observing the law
establishes the law on its right basis, subordinate to the law of grace.

laws that condemn and kill are replaced by mercy. One
prime example is when the woman caught in adultry escaped being stoned to death by the mediation of Jesus Christ between her and her accusers.

Examination of that account shows
1) they did not bring her to Jesus to be stoned, but to trap him,
2) there were no legal grounds on which to stone the woman:
stoning was only for betrothed virgins,
both parties to the transgression were to be stoned together,
and there was no second party,
two witnesses were required, and no witnesses remained to testify.

It would behoove you to learn the laws before interpreting them.

Falls a little short of showing what I said is in error.
What I've presented is plainly stated in the OT.

This account is not an example of mercy over law, but rather
an example of Jesus obeying the law, and not condemning her
without legal grounds for doing so.

Again you bend the reality of the written word to suit an unhappy attitude.

Again, unhappy failure #2 to show what I stated is in error.

This leaves us only the rules of the game of life written down by Moses from God.

Your egregious omission of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers pretty much shows it all.

No mention of the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21)
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6),
no mention of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers with its
myriads of commands and exhortations to obedience.

Unhappy failure #3 to show what I stated is in error.

Actually, it is written in the Old Testament that
God gave some statutes and ordinances (laws) that were bad and not to be followed but
this is overlooked by most people.

And with good reason. . .it was not God who gave them such statutes.

In Eze 20:23-25, the laws God gave them over to and the statutes they could not live by refer to the laws of their enemies to whom God gave them over (Dt 28:48; 2Chr 12:8), not to the laws of God.

You should really give a good and hard rethink to what you are saying here.

Unhappy failure #4 to show what I stated is in error.

Your main focus is the law of Moses, rather than the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers (2Co 12:2-9).

The problem is your focus.

My main focus is obeying the Father

Your egregious omission of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers pretty much shows it all.

No mention of the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21)
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6),
no mention of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers with its
commands and exhortations to obedience.

The problem is your focus.

 

[Elin]

Rom 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Elin there seems to be some confusion in your post. At first I did not realize exactly what was your reference with the "we" in your post. It is obvious you do not understand that "we" establish the law through faith, which grammatically is understood as it is with what the law is established.

Any confusion is cleared up in post #85, immediately previous.

 

[just-me]

And I thought they call it that because of the price of their coffee.... Star- Bucks.

Best thing to do is not to patronize them and try to visit with their customers. Non-Fun Pun

 

[Elin]

We should be spiritually defining the law rather than defining it ONLY as physical attributes that will separate faith from it. If one describes the law only as condemnation, then they are saying it is not for the believer which also negates what Jesus said to satan making it of no effect.

The problem is your focus, as explained in post #49, here.

 

[Elin]

Neither one of you can deny what this post communicates in terms of grace and truth and if you want all the verses to back it up I would be glad to do that. DO YOU DENY WHAT THIS POST IS SAYING and how it relates to the NT believer who is under grace and not the law? When the scriptures say that we are not under the law but under grace, what do you think that means, just the condemnation part of it? I don't think so. There are no ordinances or regulations to run our life any longer for they have been put away along with the flesh. We are spiritual beings that have the Spirit and we walk and are led by the Spirit. Our fruit is according to the Spirit and what we hear we hear from the Spirit. The Spirit even teaches us how to pray and makes intercession for us.

The law can't do any of that and has been made obsolete. That does not make the believer lawless because they have the HOLY Spirit. Try to go out and live in sin, as soon as you do you will find out very quickly just what role the Spirit has in your life to bring conviction into the heart and if you continue to grieve the Spirit what happens to your life in terms of growing in grace. The law is useless to do any of that and if you legislate the law to others or even yourself you strengthen sin. To get victory and overcome sin you must humble yourself and receive grace so that you can be restored back to having fellowship with the Lord through the agency of the Spirit and not through the letter of keeping the law. Do we have our fellowship with the Lord through the law or through the Holy Spirit and through the communion of the blood and body of Christ?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BradC again.

 

[vic1980]

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

God Bless

 

[vic1980]

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

 

[vic1980]

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But concerning brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

God Bless

 

[cfultz3]

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But concerning brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

God Bless

I like this verse a lot. If you would, allow me this moment to share a little grammar understanding:

1Th 4:9 ........γαρG1063 CONJ - (seeing that) υμειςG4771 P-2NP - (you*) θεοδιδακτοιG2312 A-NPM - (Divinely instructed (taught from God)) εστεG1510 V-PAI-2P - (you* are) ειςG1519 PREP - (for purpose) τοG3588 T-ASN - (this) αγαπανG25 V-PAN - (to love) αλληλουςG240 C-APM - (one another)

1Th 4:9 ........seeing that you* are Divinely instructed (taught from God) for this purpose: to love another.​

God instructing us in how to love Him and others. Telling us of His ways. Telling us what is love according to Him. His Will lives forever.

 

[Atwood]

Earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saint!
It is a shame for a righteous man to give way to the wicked.

Fight the good fight,
With all thy might;
Christ is thy strength,
And Christ thy right!

 

[vic1980]

The holyspirit witnesses of sin. Good reminder

John 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

Text Analysis
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]And[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2064 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elthōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐλθὼν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]having come,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-APA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1565 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ekeinos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐκεῖνος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]DPro-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1651 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elenxei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐλέγξει[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]will convict[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-FIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2889 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kosmon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κόσμον[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]world[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4012 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]peri[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]περὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]concerning[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]266 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hamartias[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἁμαρτίας[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]sin,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4012 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]peri[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]περὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]concerning[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1343 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dikaiosynēs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δικαιοσύνης[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]righteousness,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4012 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]peri[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]περὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]concerning[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2920 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kriseōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κρίσεως·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]judgment:[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Greek Texts
Nestle GNT 1904
καὶ ἐλθὼν ἐκεῖνος ἐλέγξει τὸν κόσμον περὶ ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ δικαιοσύνης καὶ περὶ κρίσεως·

God Bless

 

[BradC]

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

God Bless

If I may add to that...

Phil 1:9
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

1 Cor 1:9,10
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

 

[RedTent]

I like your explanation and also JaumeJ's. With all the arguing that has gone on, I have even missed the point that a human viewpoint sees one way, and the spiritual viewpoint sees another. I look forward to discussing the finer details of the truth without argument or contention, for that's where we will find the greater beauty of our Lord, and all that He has fulfilled for our sakes. What enormous grace we have received through Christ! Then we can climb out of the stalemate it appears we are in.

I don't think it is possible to climb out of the stalemate we are in until Christians learn to correctly read Paul and those God assigned to teaching man to see the changes that Christ made. As long as man reads about those changes and say that it means that it wiped out so much of the teachings of the God who created them, as long as they believe in this, the kingdom of God cannot be understood correctly.

 

[crossnote]

This thread is inviting and stirring up the very thing it is forbidding by dictating what's what on the law/grace issue.

It's kinda like telling the kids, "Now I've hidden the cookies in the frig...DO NOT TOUCH!"

Yup, it's what happens when a law like, 'stop arguing about law under grace...' is thrown into the mix.

It's Rom 7 all over again

 

[JaumeJ]

Perhaps a review of the OP will help. God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen.

Sometimes many people are put into a haze by a multitude of words.


This constant discussion of obeying the law or not while believing one is living in grace has many in that cloud of verbosity.


Think about the constant arguments, and both sides have reason, yet there is no agreement.


It is written, he who lives by the law will abide by all of the law. Now we all know this is impossible, for no one is capable of living by all of the law save our Salvation, Jesus christ. This should have awakend both sides of this endless dispute a long time ago.


How is this you are thinking? If thos who believe Jesus Christ are aware they cannot live by the law alone, then they are not living by the law alone, but by the Example of Jesus Christ. I do not speak of those who believe in the laws of punishment, dietary, or sacrificial laws, for those are not possible to follow sinc our Lord made all foods clean, all laws of punishment replaced by mercy, and moved the Templt to the living stones of His Body.

So we do live by faith, read the third chapter of Galatians, while following the Example of Jesus Christ, for we have received the promise given Abraham 430 prior the to giving of the law. As is written, the law, given 430 years after the promise, cannot nullify that promise.


Bottom line, all who believe in obeying God's wisdom in the laws, yet follow the Example of Jesus Christ, cannot be under the law, for they knowingly omit all those laws mentione forehand here.


Stop arguing if you know your brethren are living by faith. To obey God is never as in, only to disobey God is a sin and likened by Him to witch craft. Do not argue this, for it is truth.

You will be ignored if you have overlooked what is stated in this text.

 

[just-me]

I don't think it is possible to climb out of the stalemate we are in until Christians learn to correctly read Paul and those God assigned to teaching man to see the changes that Christ made. As long as man reads about those changes and say that it means that it wiped out so much of the teachings of the God who created them, as long as they believe in this, the kingdom of God cannot be understood correctly.

Read this, it may help you to understand what my thoughts are about never ending controversy. It's not Biblical to go over and over the same things that others refuse to acknowledge. The guests aren't that ignorant. They can see who is starting what. Let the dead bury the dead.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...uing-about-law-under-grace-5.html#post1696394