What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?

[SeaBass]

false. Mk 16:16 says nothing about unbaptized believers.

In Mark 16;16 Jesus made getting "saved" not possible without the step of baptism and getting baptized requires the step of believing. In other words, Jesus made it IMPOSSIBLE to get to "saved" without taking the first step of belief and the second step of baptism. Jesus purposely made it where neither of the prerequisite steps can be skipped and Jesus made both steps of equal importance and necessity to get to "saved"


The examples you keep giving are where you are looking to find a way to make a step OPTIONAL which is something Christ did NOT do in Mark 16:16 and why your examples are not working.

So you cannot make your premise that requires both A and B to get C but then later change your mind and decide that it does not take B to get to C.

1) if it does not require B to get to C then your original premise is flawed and untrue for it REQUIRED both A and B to get C.

2) if you can conveniently remove B then there is no reason why someone else cannot remove A

 

[kennethcadwell]

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
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[TD] Strong's Number: 907[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (911)[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Baptizo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:529,92[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]bap-tid'-zo [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

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[SeaBass]

a multitude of other scripture indicating that faith & confession of the Lordship of Christ is what is necessary for salvation, and the lack of any biblical statement that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism is a work upon which salvation is conditional shows that Atwood's premise is true. Mark 16:16 does not say "unbaptized believers are condemned"

that doesn't mean that we should not be baptized in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O as is the church's custom.

according to God's mercy, belief in your heart & public confession have been required of us.
H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism is exactly ceremonial public confession.

all scripture agrees that it is God's mercy by which we are saved, not a quid-pro-quo of obedience and earned reward.
the true immersion, washing, regeneration and renewal that work salvation are spiritual things, not earthly things. things that God does by His Spirit, not things that we do by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.

if God has commanded it, who am i to say we shouldn't do it? i do not say that. no one else in the thread has said that.
but saying that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O guarantees or is necessary for our salvation is placing the created thing above the Creator, and is not borne out by careful consideration of the Word.

what is the earnest of our salvation?
it is the Spirit. and the book records the Spirit given without baptism, after baptism, before baptism, and at the time of baptism in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.

we must not look at H[SUB]2[/SUB]O dipping as a miraculous and magical act, but the answer of a good conscience to God in the light of what God, and God alone, has done.

I agree that there are verse that make belief and confession necessary to being saved but there are also verses that make repentance and baptism just as necessary. So it is not hard to understand why the 'faith only' crowd to not want to study "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) but just cherry-pick out only the verses that require belief while ignoring the verses that require repentance confession and baptism.

The real "head scratcher" here is that the bible plainly, clearly, unambiguously says.......

faith/belief saves
repentance saves
confession saves
baptism saves
grace saves
hope saves
the engrafted word saves
obedience saves
the blood of Christ saves
etc, etc

.....yet one comes away from the bible claiming "belief only" saves?????????????????

 

[SeaBass]

Was Abraham, Issac or Jacob baptized? are they in heaven? Did the Jews call Him the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. When the Sadducee's confronted Jesus about a woman that had been married 7 times legally and who's wife would she be in heaven. Jesus said that we are not given in marriage in heaven. Then said but you err, is He not called the God Abraham? God is the God of the living and not the dead. So when were they baptized?

Abraham, Issac and Jacob lived under a different law, different dispensation. The incident you speak about - the woman who married 7 times took place under the OT law, a different dispensation and did not take place under the Christian dispensation/NT law. Water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins therefore was not required of them but is required of us today under this Christian dispensation, Christ's NT law.

 

[SeaBass]

As I posted to the posthuman, I would caution care in speaking of confession as saving someone. No human work saves, not giving public testimony.

Mt 10:32,33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Not confessing Christ = Christ denying you.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Mt 10:32,33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Not confessing Christ = Christ denying you.

Remember Atwood likes going by Paul, so lets use what Paul says which is not contradictory to what our Lord said that you posted.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[prodigal]

john was doing his baptism of repentance before jesus's ministry even started, you dont hear of anyone being baptised by water twice, i am sure that a believer who has the living god within them and has not been baptised with water, will be led by the conviction of the holy spirit to be baptised as christ directed us. so to me, my baptism of water came about because i was saved and not that i needed it to be saved. So i believe that during the period of time between receiving christ and being baptised with water, i was no less saved....If as a non believer i was told to be baptised with water to be saved and know the living god, i would have passed on it and wouldn't know god today. but when god entered my life he said come as you are, not listing any criteria, and he led me from that moment on.....Just my thoughts on the matter....

Luke 19:10 - For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost..... and i was certainly lost

 

[notuptome]

Most scholars dismiss the long ending of Mark 16 as of questionable authorship. It does make you wonder when that passage is used to justify snake handlers and poison drinking. I guess when you are desperate to prop up an idolized doctrine like baptismal regeneration you gotta do what you gotta do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Remember Atwood likes going by Paul, so lets use what Paul says which is not contradictory to what our Lord said that you posted.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ok snarky one to whom is one confessing in Romans 10:10? To whom does a sinner confess?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kennethcadwell]

john was doing his baptism of repentance before jesus's ministry even started, you dont hear of anyone being baptised by water twice, i am sure that a believer who has the living god within them and has not been baptised with water, will be led by the conviction of the holy spirit to be baptised as christ directed us. so to me, my baptism of water came about because i was saved and not that i needed it to be saved. So i believe that during the period of time between being saved and being baptised with water, i was no less saved....If as a non believer i was told to be baptised with water to be saved and know the living god, i would have passed on it and wouldn't know god today. but when god entered my life he said come as you are, not listing any criteria, and he led me from that moment on.....Just my thoughts on the matter....

Luke 19:10 - For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. and i was certainly lost

Of course they were not baptized twice.
Remember what Jesus said to the Apostles when washing their feet. He told them the one who has already been cleansed only needs to wash their feet. The Apostles were already cleansed by baptism, and had the Lord and His teachings personally in front of them. They only needed to be given the Holy Spirit, which could not be delivered to them tell after the Lord was crucified. He had to go away first, before the helper the Holy Spirit could come.

We now who do not have Lord physically in front of us to see, still need to cleanse our hearts and our minds.
We are told to walk with a new slate, and clear conscious.
Repentance of sins, and believing in the Lord gives us a new slate, and the baptism is the sign of a clear conscious.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ok snarky one to whom is one confessing in Romans 10:10? To whom does a sinner confess?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's not being snarky, Atwood said in a previous post in a debate with another he goes by Paul's words more then Jesus because he says Jesus words was mainly just for Israel. So I was using a scripture that he would go by.

The confession of Jesus as your Lord is to be done in front of others. Confession of your sins can either be done in personal prayer to God in the Lords name, or you can do like the Catholics and go to a priest in confession. The bible speaks of both as acceptable, but the teaching of just going to a priest in confession is the only way to be forgiven is false.

We each have our own personal relationship with God, and can ask personally in prayer for that forgiveness in our Lord Jesus name. For the Lord Jesus is our only mediator between us and God.

 

[SeaBass]

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) This is referring to being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Scripture clearly states more than once that John truly baptized in water but Jesus would baptize in Holy Spirit. Same Greek word used - meaning immersion so what do we do? - there are two baptisms mentioned here - Do we keep water baptism and forget about the baptism that Jesus gives? You stick with your water - I choose to stick with Jesus' baptism.

You cannot take a passage as Jn 7:38,39 that clearly says water is being used figuratively and then apply that figurative meaning to any other verse you care to, especially trying to apply it to passages that are speaking about literal water as 1 Pet 3:20,21. This has bad exegesis all over it.

This bad exegesis is why you keep violating Eph 4:5 that says there is ONE baptism:

1 Cor 1:14,15 water baptism
1 Cor 12:13 water baptism


It is very clear as to what the one baptism of Eph 4:5 is.

-------------------------------------
In the context of Matt 3:11 John is not speaking to Peacefulbeliever but is speaking to Pharisees, verse 7. John says to these Pharisees:

Mt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"


Why would John say to these Pharisees "I indeed baptize YOU with water" when John had not done so, Lk 7:30?

It becomes apparent then that John is using both the pronouns "you" in a generic sense and not referring to anyone in particular. John is simply announcing the baptism he baptized with and announcing the baptisms Christ would baptize with and NOT promising baptism of fire or baptism with the HG to anyone particularly here.

So it cannot be determined from this immediate context who the "you" refers to that will be baptized with the HG. People can try and make themselves the second "you" but have no logical or exegetical bases to do so, only a bias. So we have to look to the fulfillment of this prophecy of John's and it can be found in Acts 1:1-5. In this context Jesus is speaking to His APOSTLES, no one else just His APOSTLES, and Jesus actually even references John's words of Mat 3:11 in Acts 1:5. So by looking at the fulfillment we can easily see John's prophecy about Christ baptizing with the HG belongs to the APOSTLES and not you, me or anyone else today.


Jesus commissioned His disciples to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Mt 28:19,20.

WE just saw John prophecy Jesus would baptize with the HG and we saw the prophecy belonged to the APOSTLES only. But now in Mt 28:19,20 we see Jesus' baptism of the great commission that is meant for "all nations" ("every creature" Mk 16;15;16).

So baptism with the HG was for the apostles and has since ceased. Yet human administered water baptism that makes one a disciple, that is commanded, meant for every person, that lasts till the end of the world is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 for you, me and every one else, all the world.

Baptism with the Holy Ghost meant for the apostles and ceased.
Water baptism that is commanded and remits sins meant for all nations, every creature that lasts till the end of the world, the one baptism of Eph 4:5

 

[posthuman]

You cannot take a passage as Jn 7:38,39 that clearly says water is being used figuratively and then apply that figurative meaning to any other verse you care to, especially trying to apply it to passages that are speaking about literal water as 1 Pet 3:20,21. This has bad exegesis all over it.

like for example with John 3:5 ?

 

[SeaBass]

john was doing his baptism of repentance before jesus's ministry even started, you dont hear of anyone being baptised by water twice, i am sure that a believer who has the living god within them and has not been baptised with water, will be led by the conviction of the holy spirit to be baptised as christ directed us. so to me, my baptism of water came about because i was saved and not that i needed it to be saved. So i believe that during the period of time between receiving christ and being baptised with water, i was no less saved....If as a non believer i was told to be baptised with water to be saved and know the living god, i would have passed on it and wouldn't know god today. but when god entered my life he said come as you are, not listing any criteria, and he led me from that moment on.....Just my thoughts on the matter....

Luke 19:10 - For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost..... and i was certainly lost

Mk 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;.."

The issue is Jesus put BOTH belief AND baptism BEFORE 'saved' so how can one be saved before he is baptized?

(The conjunction "and" ties belief to baptism making them inseparable and thereby makes one just as equally important and essential to salvation as the other.)

to be honest brother, this subject goes round in circles, i quote scriptures like the man on cross next to Jesus, you give scriptures that taken completely on their own indicate your belief. the bible also says you must confess with your mouth, so does that mean dumb people can't be saved. I will respect that you have an opinion which differs to mine. and i'm sure we've both been baptized anyhow..blessings

 

[Atwood]

like for example with John 3:5 ?

It seems to me a tad inconsistent to insist that John 3:5 is about baptism, though the term is absent, and try to enforce it on the Church (thought the Church did not exist then and would not for some time);

while at the same time,
insisting that the Thief on the cross is irrelevant to salvation since the thief was not in the new dispensation, but heard the words there before Christ died on the cross, ending a dispensation.

 

[SeaBass]

Most scholars dismiss the long ending of Mark 16 as of questionable authorship. It does make you wonder when that passage is used to justify snake handlers and poison drinking. I guess when you are desperate to prop up an idolized doctrine like baptismal regeneration you gotta do what you gotta do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The evidence show that the latter verses of Mk 16 are just as genuine as other bible verses. What you cite above is just another invention of man to find a way around Mk 16:16.

 

[SeaBass]

like for example with John 3:5 ?

Absolutely. There is nothing in the immediate context of John chapter 3 that water in verse 5 is anything other than literal water. So one cannot go to a remote text as John 7:38,39 and apply its figurative meaning to Jn 3 or Acts 2:38 or Mt 28:19,20 or Mk 16:16 etc.

If Jn 7:38,39 makes water of Jn 3:5 figurative then what keeps it from making the water in Jn 3:23 also figurative?


Jesus said "born of water and of spirit" and not "born of spirit and of spirit". If spirit is all one needs to be born again, then no need in mentioning water at all. And why say "except a man be born of spirit (figuratively) and of spirit (literally) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"..... it would make no sense.

 

[Atwood]

SeaBass continues on Mark 16, which says nothing about unbaptized believers!
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to
everyone who believes.

Mk 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;.."

The issue is Jesus put BOTH belief AND baptism BEFORE 'saved' so how can one be saved before he is baptized?

The way a man can be saved is in Acts 16 & a host of other passages:

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved. Mark 16 doesn't say that a man is not saved until baptized.
And scripture tells us that salvation is not by works, so no human work saves.

The fact that words are in some order in a sentence does not determine meaning; it is the expressed relationship between them that determines meaning.

He who wins the lottery, had bought a ticket.

Wins the lottery is before "bought a ticket" in the sentence, but wins the lottery did not come before bought a ticket. Neither did wins the lottery cause "bought a ticket."

This is more SeaBass sophistry.

(The conjunction "and" ties belief to baptism making them inseparable and thereby makes one just as equally important and essential to salvation as the other.)

And does not make things inseparable. Acts says: "And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly." Yet it also tells us that Paul and Barnabas separated in a dispute about John Mark.

And does not make two things equally important.

"many publicans and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples."

The disciples are not equally important with Jesus. And can certainly be used to join two things, one of which is essential and the other is not. Who would claim that making him a supper and Martha serving were both essential?


"So they made him a supper there: and Martha served."

SeaBass invents implications for and that don't exist.

Logic 101:
If A and B, then C.
If not A, then not C.
Logical Fallacy: "If not B, then not C."

Given: If a man consumes meat and juice, he gets protein.
Given: If a man does not consume meat, he gets no protein.

Logical fallacy: "If a man does not consume juice, he gets no protein."

QED

Do not ignore that the last part of Mark 16:16 omits baptism from the condemnation clause.

Water baptism cannot be essential to salvation, for salvation is offered again & again without a drop of water.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.


Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

 

[notuptome]

The evidence show that the latter verses of Mk 16 are just as genuine as other bible verses. What you cite above is just another invention of man to find a way around Mk 16:16.

Pretty much the usual frivolous accusations.

To abide in Christ one must have the Holy Spirit abiding in their heart. Since you deny Holy Spirit baptism and receive only water baptism for salvation there is little else you can do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

Absolutely. There is nothing in the immediate context of John chapter 3 that water in verse 5 is anything other than literal water. So one cannot go to a remote text as John 7:38,39 and apply its figurative meaning to Jn 3 or Acts 2:38 or Mt 28:19,20 or Mk 16:16 etc.

If Jn 7:38,39 makes water of Jn 3:5 figurative then what keeps it from making the water in Jn 3:23 also figurative?


Jesus said "born of water and of spirit" and not "born of spirit and of spirit". If spirit is all one needs to be born again, then no need in mentioning water at all. And why say "except a man be born of spirit (figuratively) and of spirit (literally) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"..... it would make no sense.

and "flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit" does not mean "H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism gives birth to spirit" -- it means spirit gives birth to spirit.

like you say, we should not add what is not in the scripture.

i wish the blindness would be removed =\