We establish the Law...but how?
- Thread starter crossnote
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I think this is crux of all arguments concerning God's Law. One side believes we *never* can attain the full measure of the fullness of Christ in this life...and the other side believes we're supposed to *eventually* attain the full measure of the fullness of Christ in this life.
One side believes it's impossible to ever achieve what Christ achieved (i.e. obedience to God's Law), even with Christ inside this flesh. The other side believes obedience to God's Law is specifically why Christ is inside this flesh in the first place; as there's no other way it can be achieved by us alone.
If a farmer plants corn in the ground, he's not looking for a crop that resembles corn or a crop that's approximately "corny". He's looking for more corn exactly like the seed he planted...and he's patient to wait until it matures. God sowed Christ into the earth and expects a harvest that matures into the same fullness.
Ephesians 4:13
Hebrews 5:14
I believe the above passage in Hebrews is a specific reference to understanding God's Law, as the Law is the only thing that measures what's good vs. what's evil. Those who are of full age understand God's Law thoroughly...just like Christ did/does. This is how the Law is established in them. It's what the Holy Spirit - The Spirit of "Truth" - teaches them. It's why The Law and The Holy Spirit were given to the people on the same exact day: Shavuot/The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost. One doesn't replace the other. The Spirit of Truth would never toss out God's Law but interprets its proper application in daily life, reminding people what "showing love to God" truly looks like in its fullness.
God already showed us love by sending his Son to save us. And we are happy to receive that love. But now that we are save, God has defined how we are to give love back to him. Yet this is the argument. Some imply, "we don't have to give love back. The only thing that matters is God's love for us". And others imply, "we have our own way of showing love to God and can't see how he would mind". Still others imply, "it's impossible to actually love God as much as Christ loved Him, and to even try is to deny the love God showed us by giving his Son".
Following God's law is simply about showing you're willing to love God on his terms, and not ours. It doesn't matter if you stumble in it, you love him enough to try. Doesn't matter if your obedience to it is not yet completely accurate, you want to show our appreciation for the love we received from him in Christ. And I can tell you, if God sees you at least trying he opens up your understanding in it even more so you can love him even better next time.
It's true that no one needs a law to believe in "a" god or "a" savior. Islam has theirs...Buddhists have theirs...Hinduists have theirs...Secular humanists have theirs (themselves). But that's specifically why there must be a litmus test to determine which one is THE God and THE Savior versus the rest of them. There must be an unbreakable, immovable standard by which to measure all other false gods and saviors (because even Islam has their version of "Jesus"). There must be an everlasting standard that never passes away that proves why our God IS God over all; supreme, never able to be usurped...and which image of "Christ" is THE Christ's. And when we live out the standard we testify to that fact; that the God of Abraham and The Messiah we've learned about is the same God and Christ we know today.
One side believes it's impossible to ever achieve what Christ achieved (i.e. obedience to God's Law), even with Christ inside this flesh. The other side believes obedience to God's Law is specifically why Christ is inside this flesh in the first place; as there's no other way it can be achieved by us alone.
If a farmer plants corn in the ground, he's not looking for a crop that resembles corn or a crop that's approximately "corny". He's looking for more corn exactly like the seed he planted...and he's patient to wait until it matures. God sowed Christ into the earth and expects a harvest that matures into the same fullness.
Ephesians 4:13
Hebrews 5:14
I believe the above passage in Hebrews is a specific reference to understanding God's Law, as the Law is the only thing that measures what's good vs. what's evil. Those who are of full age understand God's Law thoroughly...just like Christ did/does. This is how the Law is established in them. It's what the Holy Spirit - The Spirit of "Truth" - teaches them. It's why The Law and The Holy Spirit were given to the people on the same exact day: Shavuot/The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost. One doesn't replace the other. The Spirit of Truth would never toss out God's Law but interprets its proper application in daily life, reminding people what "showing love to God" truly looks like in its fullness.
God already showed us love by sending his Son to save us. And we are happy to receive that love. But now that we are save, God has defined how we are to give love back to him. Yet this is the argument. Some imply, "we don't have to give love back. The only thing that matters is God's love for us". And others imply, "we have our own way of showing love to God and can't see how he would mind". Still others imply, "it's impossible to actually love God as much as Christ loved Him, and to even try is to deny the love God showed us by giving his Son".
Following God's law is simply about showing you're willing to love God on his terms, and not ours. It doesn't matter if you stumble in it, you love him enough to try. Doesn't matter if your obedience to it is not yet completely accurate, you want to show our appreciation for the love we received from him in Christ. And I can tell you, if God sees you at least trying he opens up your understanding in it even more so you can love him even better next time.
It's true that no one needs a law to believe in "a" god or "a" savior. Islam has theirs...Buddhists have theirs...Hinduists have theirs...Secular humanists have theirs (themselves). But that's specifically why there must be a litmus test to determine which one is THE God and THE Savior versus the rest of them. There must be an unbreakable, immovable standard by which to measure all other false gods and saviors (because even Islam has their version of "Jesus"). There must be an everlasting standard that never passes away that proves why our God IS God over all; supreme, never able to be usurped...and which image of "Christ" is THE Christ's. And when we live out the standard we testify to that fact; that the God of Abraham and The Messiah we've learned about is the same God and Christ we know today.
I'll only address the issue of heart purity and if it is fully attainable in this life. You stated the case but I couldn't find your position in your post...but it seems you might side that our purity is incomplete but seen as complete in God's eyes when He sees the desire in our heart. I won't quibble with that.
I do believe that God looks for faith/trust in Him regardless of the circumstances He put's us through over 'law keeping'.
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Philippians 3:3-11 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
I do believe that God looks for faith/trust in Him regardless of the circumstances He put's us through over 'law keeping'.
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Philippians 3:3-11 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised (become a law keeper); only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised (become a law keeper as they), that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Gal 6:12-16)
(Gal 6:12-16)
I've been struggling with the picture I want to paint in words to sum up my thoughts on this, it is so simple, its complicated. Gods ways often paradoxical and difficult to wrap my earthly mind around, let alone expound on it. So far I got this.
The Law is Good, and Grace is Better. We can walk in the law, with grace above us, but if we walk with the law above us, we will trample grace. That is not to say we would stomp on the law, as having Grace within us, keeps it reverent to us. For He placed Himself under the law and devoted Himself to every jot and tittle of it, keeping it in our stead, having known we have no hope in such accomplishment apart from Him.
The Law is Good, and Grace is Better. We can walk in the law, with grace above us, but if we walk with the law above us, we will trample grace. That is not to say we would stomp on the law, as having Grace within us, keeps it reverent to us. For He placed Himself under the law and devoted Himself to every jot and tittle of it, keeping it in our stead, having known we have no hope in such accomplishment apart from Him.
It doesn't take the whole law to see we are in need of a Savior. Even the Cross declares our guilt.
I've been declared righteous (justified) notwithstanding the accusations of the enemy.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(Rom 5:8-9)
I've been declared righteous (justified) notwithstanding the accusations of the enemy.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(Rom 5:8-9)
See if this helps...
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:11-12)
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb 4:16)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal 2:20-21)
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:11-12)
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb 4:16)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal 2:20-21)
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)
Standard reply but it is unscriptural...
Paul was still striving against a nature that wanted to sin...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
This was twenty some years AFTER his conversion and he still desired to sin.
John says this...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Why do we still need an advocate to offer Himself for our sins if we no longer sin? James helps us understand...
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Paul was still striving against a nature that wanted to sin...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
This was twenty some years AFTER his conversion and he still desired to sin.
John says this...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Why do we still need an advocate to offer Himself for our sins if we no longer sin? James helps us understand...
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
C
Bound to misunderstand if one does not live by every word out of the mouth of God that is including the whole law whatever one's definition is for the word "law".
For example, this statement
simply overlooked the fact that justification is by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ (cf Romans 3:24)and that the justified should not continue in sin that grace may abound (cf Romans 6:1).
Again the Israelites in OT is our example: They were saved from slavery in Egypt (a type for slavery in sin) with no string attached. That's the righteousness of God.
It's only after they were freed (not a slave of sin anymore) that God gave them His commandments to keep.
We all see the result of continuing in sin in the desert in that example.
Was the law difficult when He even gave them provisions to cleanse unintentional sins in terms of sin and guilt offerings (a type for Christ sacrifice)?
Was the law difficult thus no one could keep and one has to speak against it when He said it was not, again cf Deuteronomy 30?
For example, this statement
simply overlooked the fact that justification is by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ (cf Romans 3:24)and that the justified should not continue in sin that grace may abound (cf Romans 6:1).
Again the Israelites in OT is our example: They were saved from slavery in Egypt (a type for slavery in sin) with no string attached. That's the righteousness of God.
It's only after they were freed (not a slave of sin anymore) that God gave them His commandments to keep.
We all see the result of continuing in sin in the desert in that example.
Was the law difficult when He even gave them provisions to cleanse unintentional sins in terms of sin and guilt offerings (a type for Christ sacrifice)?
Was the law difficult thus no one could keep and one has to speak against it when He said it was not, again cf Deuteronomy 30?
C
If one misunderstands, like those Paul spoke about in Galatians, that law keeper must be physically circumcised. But way back in Deuteronomy He promised: the Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
He was speaking of the new covenant.
The one who understands the new covenant knows one must have the heart circumcised. And the one who is in the new covenant has the heart circumcised is the one who has His law in the heart. The very law that the Israelites failed to keep because of unbelief.
He was speaking of the new covenant.
The one who understands the new covenant knows one must have the heart circumcised. And the one who is in the new covenant has the heart circumcised is the one who has His law in the heart. The very law that the Israelites failed to keep because of unbelief.
C
Our example:
The cry out:
Exodus 2:23 During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God.
The rescue:
Exodus 19:3-4 This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.
What followed:
if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, youwill be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
What happened?
The cry out:
Exodus 2:23 During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God.
The rescue:
Exodus 19:3-4 This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.
What followed:
if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, youwill be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
What happened?
"to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
The answer is no. Paul is not describing a desire to sin, he is describing a desire to obey with no power to do so.
It's not about desire, it's about power,
from which powerlessness he is rescued through Jesus Christ our Lord,
so that he may do what he desires, which is to obey.
Its the same power from God which is necessary for everything in the Christian life,
from rebirth to transformation into the image of Christ.
Nothing spiritual is done without it.
The answer is no. Paul is not describing a desire to sin, he is describing a desire to obey with no power to do so.
It's not about desire, it's about power,
from which powerlessness he is rescued through Jesus Christ our Lord,
so that he may do what he desires, which is to obey.
Its the same power from God which is necessary for everything in the Christian life,
from rebirth to transformation into the image of Christ.
Nothing spiritual is done without it.
Hebrews 12:23
king james version
23.)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
In Romans paul said that the struggle was in the flesh and there was another law warring against the law of the mind that brings us into captivity to the law of sin which is in the flesh
so you are right on there but there is the more scripture that should have been posted Romans 8:1-8
king james version
[SUP]1.)[/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]
2.)[/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]
3.)[/SUP] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]
4.)[/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]
5.)[/SUP] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]
6.)[/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]
7.)[/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]
8.)[/SUP] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The rebirth took place in the spirit and now you are a new creation and its GODs handiwork and paul said to present your bodies a living sacrifice and renew your mind.
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
JESUS said that the words that he speaks are SPIRIT and LIFE.
king james version
23.)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
In Romans paul said that the struggle was in the flesh and there was another law warring against the law of the mind that brings us into captivity to the law of sin which is in the flesh
so you are right on there but there is the more scripture that should have been posted Romans 8:1-8
king james version
[SUP]1.)[/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]
2.)[/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]
3.)[/SUP] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]
4.)[/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]
5.)[/SUP] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]
6.)[/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]
7.)[/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]
8.)[/SUP] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The rebirth took place in the spirit and now you are a new creation and its GODs handiwork and paul said to present your bodies a living sacrifice and renew your mind.
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
JESUS said that the words that he speaks are SPIRIT and LIFE.
Last edited:
And we all see what happened to the Israelites whe the law in stone was added...
Romans 5:20 Now the law came in so that the transgression may increase, but where sin increased, grace multiplied all the more,
Galatians 3:19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.
Romans 5:20 Now the law came in so that the transgression may increase, but where sin increased, grace multiplied all the more,
Galatians 3:19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.