Simple Question...No Simple Answer

[BenFTW]

Faith only says you do not have to do any works at all.

Actually it doesn't say that. Faith only promotes works for rewards at the Bema seat of Christ. So you are not only promoting a false gospel but also lying about your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. They encourage works, and should make such statements as, "Your finite works now have an eternal impact of how you will spend eternity." That is why an emphasis on works matters, for the sake of how we will spend eternity. Our lack of works doesn't put our salvation at risk, it puts our rewards at risk.

You put up a question that is a false dichotomy, as Elin so adequately showed by her question (that you are avoiding). Her question, just as yours, forces an answer that is unacceptable and displeasing to the truth. That is, you are not beating your friend (hopefully), but the question makes it so that you are currently beating the person or did in the past.

 

[SeaBass]

We are suppose to help build up one another faith and which that takes works, and spreading the word takes works as well. But if you lie around in your room and just believing isn't faith; but you will be consider as a lazy servant.

But faith only says you do not have to have to have a faith that produces these works and can still be saved.

But if your faith must produce theses works then that makes your salvation by faith dependent upon doing these works.

 

[SeaBass]

We are saved by faith alone. That being said, faith without works is dead.

Contradiction.

Faith cannot be alone and not alone at the same time.

So one is either saved by faith only NEVER doing ANY works

or

one must do works.

Which is it?

[/QUOTE]

 

[SeaBass]

The question defeats itself by a false premise. It devises a question about faith (that leads to works) and then questions can a person with such faith not produce works and yet by very definition such a faith WILL produce works. The question is circular, and leads to a forced premise that is backed by false premises.

This being the case, the answer is neither "No", or "Yes." It needs to be re-worded. As is, the question is a false dichotomy. It puts up two answers and yet requires another. The question (and point) defeats itself.

Salvation MAY lead to works, but such works do not merit salvation as it is already theirs. If works do not flow from such salvation, we do not assume they are not saved. Works are a witness of being saved, works are for you and others. However bad a witness someone might have, we do not condemn them. Look to the Corinthians who slept with temple prostitutes. How quick some in the body of Christ would say they are not believers. Yet Paul calls them saints.

I say, "Salvation MAY lead to works" because there are factors to consider why a person may not reap such works. Consider death bed confessions. What work can they do upon being a moment from death? What of a stranded man, who comes to revelation of Jesus and has no one to do good to? Lost on an island and yet Jesus visits him. Is such a man condemned because he could do no good to man? Do you not see the self-righteousness implied in this question?

Let us not forget that men will be saved "yet so as by fire." They will have no works remaining and yet they are saved. So can a man have faith and yet produce no works? Yes, and a resounding yes. We could give example after example, and hypothetical scenarios left and right. It is not to a person's advantage to not be able to produce such works, however. It is bittersweet. They are saved, and yet no rewards. If salvation was dependent upon the works we did, we would be better off isolated on an island, or being a deathbed confession, in order to secure our eternal destination. How sad would it be that God desires us to love others, and yet sets in motion a plan of redemption that sets us apart from doing so? "Love others at your own risk", would be our motto.

The question is not cirucular the arguemnt faith only advocates offer is cirucular.


Faith onlyists say you do not have to do ANY works to be saved, but THEN they say your faith WILL produce works. This is circular.

So can one be saved by faith only without any works

or

must one's faith produce works? If one's faith produces works then it is no more faith only but faith + works.


You cannot have it both ways.

You post "Salvation MAY lead to works, but such works do not merit salvation as it is already theirs..."

Can one be saved/be a Christian and not do goods works per Eph 2:10 and be saved anyway? Faith only says he can. What say you?

 

[notuptome]

Contradiction.

Faith cannot be alone and not alone at the same time.

So one is either saved by faith only NEVER doing ANY works

or

one must do works.

Which is it?

You must ask the question correctly to receive a correct answer.

We are saved by grace. Grace is complete and totally efficacious. Nothing can be added to Gods grace. Grace is all of God and nothing of man. Faith is not grace. Faith is given by grace to those who hear the word of God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God. The word of God is able to make one wise unto salvation.

The works you claim one "must" do must be done by the Holy Spirit operating in the believer. All of man's works are as filthy rags in Gods sight. The peaceable fruit of righteousness is wrought by the Holy Spirit not by the will of man.

Faith is the trust we place in God that by His grace He saves us for all of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kennethcadwell]

Actually it doesn't say that. Faith only promotes works for rewards at the Bema seat of Christ. So you are not only promoting a false gospel but also lying about your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. They encourage works, and should make such statements as, "Your finite works now have an eternal impact of how you will spend eternity." That is why an emphasis on works matters, for the sake of how we will spend eternity. Our lack of works doesn't put our salvation at risk, it puts our rewards at risk.

You put up a question that is a false dichotomy, as Elin so adequately showed by her question (that you are avoiding). Her question, just as yours, forces an answer that is unacceptable and displeasing to the truth. That is, you are not beating your friend (hopefully), but the question makes it so that you are currently beating the person or did in the past.

Lack of works does not put one's salvation at risk ????

If that is the case then a person can say they believe in the Lord, but make no attempt to repent of their sins and turn from them and still end up being saved. The Lord clearly does say you have to repent of your sins, or you will parish.

Repentance is a process that requires one to turn from doing wrong, to walking in the spirit and doing good.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I bring this up for the simple question is difficult for the faith onlyist to answer, so
I get a lot of avoidance and people should see that avoidance.

Like they see your avoidance of my "yes or no" question--have you stopped beating your friend?

If he never "started" beating his friend, the answer would be "no", he cannot stop something he never started, so what is your point?

 

[SeaBass]

What if questions create scenarios that are not Biblical. The Pharisees did this to Jesus quite often.

"What if a man has 7 wives and dies, who will be with him in the resurrection?" Sound familiar?

Plenty of Scripture support faith alone. And faith alone does save. However works show a person's new identity. The problem is that this question shows unbelief in the new creation reality that is obtained the moment a person is reborn. If you think works save you, I wonder which ones these are? If you think faith and works save you, what kind of faith is that? Faith believes for something hoped for not something performed for.

C.

I asked "what if", but faith only says one's faith does NOT for certain have to produce works yet one can be saved anyway.

---If one can be saved by faith only then his faith never has to produce any works and he can still be saved.

--- But the faith onlyist says his faith WILL produce works.


So must one's faith produce

or

not have to produce works to be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Two different applications:

If man has faith without it being a gift of God, since in 1 Cor 12:7-11
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Measure of faith that God has dealt to every man is the his ability to believe, which is part of faith but not the whole measure since in addition to believing, you have to search/and make inquiry before you simply have faith in anything.
It requires us to examine all things, to test and to prove all things. 1 Thess 5:21 in re: 1 Peter 3:15"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"


Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;


KJV



Then because 2 Thess 3:22 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


The reason salvation is not of works, because it is not by our faith we are saved, since it is the works of the One who does the saving. Who said, "Physician, heal thyself:"? Probably the same on who taught himself how to read and write...

If salvation is NOT of works then one who is already a Christian does NOT have to do good works God before ordained Christians are to walk in, right?

 

[BenFTW]

If he never "started" beating his friend, the answer would be "no", he cannot stop something he never started, so what is your point?

Refer to post #81

You put up a question that is a false dichotomy, as Elin so adequately showed by her question (that you are avoiding). Her question, just as yours, forces an answer that is unacceptable and displeasing to the truth. That is, you are not beating your friend (hopefully), but the question makes it so that you are currently beating the person or did in the past.

PS: I don't know why the post is all in bold, even when I made it so it wouldn't be.

 

[BenFTW]

Lack of works does not put one's salvation at risk ????

If that is the case then a person can say they believe in the Lord, but make no attempt to repent of their sins and turn from them and still end up being saved. The Lord clearly does say you have to repent of your sins, or you will parish.

Repentance is a process that requires one to turn from doing wrong, to walking in the spirit and doing good.

You just described a works-based salvation in the clearest way possible. Is what Jesus did enough for your salvation, or did Jesus pass you the baton in order for you to finish the race? If he passed you the baton, then he isn't your savior, you are your own savior because your salvation is dependent upon you.

That is the sad and self righteous reality of such a gospel that you are currently subscribed to. Such a doctrine makes the Gospel no different than the religions of the world. It removes grace and bases it in works. You are working your way into Heaven as other's work their way into Nirvana. Has Jesus' sacrifice made no difference? Did the cross change things? Is Jesus not able to save you completely, always interceding on your behalf? (Hebrews 7:25)

 

[SeaBass]

FAITH ONLY per James is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. Says/claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14). Genuine faith is evidenced by good works.

Genuine faith that "trusts only in Christ for salvation" saves (saved through faith, not works); yet this genuine faith is evidenced by good works. That is not the same as faith that "only claims to be genuine" but demonstrates by the lack of good works that it's a dead faith. This may sound confusing to unbelievers, but not to believers.

Not at all. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. That is the balance that gets out of balance. We are not saved by works and we are not saved by a dead faith that produces no works. Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage and the coupon of faith is not valid if void of works, which demonstrates to not be genuine faith.

Faith that "trusts in Christ alone for salvation" saves but "this kind of faith is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren of works). Simple!

It only sounds like a contradiction to you because you don't understand that the word "alone" is in connection with two different things in that statement. Faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation is not equivalent to faith that remains "alone" barren of works.

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation saves (Ephesians 2:5-9). This kind of faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works (vs. 10). An empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of good works that it's dead does not trust in Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-8), or else it would be alive and not barren of works.

Faith (rightly understood) that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION saves and this kind of faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works, because it's a living faith, not a dead faith. No contradiction. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. That is not hard to understand.

We are not saved through faith and good works, but through faith, ​and for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are saved through faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, yet this faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works.

Must one have faith to be saved? You would probably answer "yes".

But above you post "Genuine faith is evidenced by good works"

You just tied having a genuine faith to works. Your statement implies one CANNOT have a "genuine faith" WITHOUT works.

Can I be saved WITHOUT a "genuine faith"? No.

Do I have a "genuine faith" if it produces no works? No.


Then having a "genuine faith" that saves is dependent upon that "genuine faith" producing works for if it does not produce then it is not "genuine".

In short, you have made it IMPOSSIBLE for one to have a "genuine faith" that saves but not have works.

Can one who has a "genuine faith" that saves never do any good works and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are refuting you own position that a "genuine faith" will produce works giving evidence of that faith and refuting Eph 2:10 that says God before ordained Christians are to walk in good works

If you answer "no" then you are saying one cannot be saved by faith only but must produce works.

 

[SeaBass]

Like they see your avoidance of my "yes or no" question--have you stopped beating your friend?

No, I am still beating my friend.


Can one's faith never produce works and still be saved anyway? IF you think faith only saves then you MUST answer "yes".

 

[SeaBass]

Actually it doesn't say that.

Then it's not faith only. It would be faith + something else.

Faith only promotes works for rewards at the Bema seat of Christ. So you are not only promoting a false gospel but also lying about your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. They encourage works, and should make such statements as, "Your finite works now have an eternal impact of how you will spend eternity." That is why an emphasis on works matters, for the sake of how we will spend eternity. Our lack of works doesn't put our salvation at risk, it puts our rewards at risk.

You put up a question that is a false dichotomy, as Elin so adequately showed by her question (that you are avoiding). Her question, just as yours, forces an answer that is unacceptable and displeasing to the truth. That is, you are not beating your friend (hopefully), but the question makes it so that you are currently beating the person or did in the past.

You say "faith only promotes works......"

Faith only would promote nothing but faith only. If it promotes works then you no longer have faith only but faith + works.





Can one who is ALREADY a Christian NOT do any good works at all (just have faith only) and still be saved by that faith only?

No?

Yes?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But faith only says you do not have to have to have a faith that produces these works and can still be saved.

But if your faith must produce theses works then that makes your salvation by faith dependent upon doing these works.

No it does not. there you go bearing false witness against us yet again.

How can we say we do not say we do not need the faith which produces works *which is no faith at all) then say that all true faith produces works.

You keep talking yourself out of truth by not listening to what people say, Your wisdom you think is wise is based on false precepts and false knowledge of what truth faith is, and what those who teach faith only believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then it's not faith only. It would be faith only + something else.




You say "faith only promotes works......"

Faith only would promote nothing but faith only. If it promotes works then you no longer have faith only but faith + works.





Can one who is ALREADY a Christian NOT do any good works at all (just have faith only) and still be saved by that faith only?

No?

Yes?

There is no such thing as faith only (apart from works)

Your whole argument is based on a lie. Satan has you duped and your blind to it.

 

[SeaBass]

No it does not. there you go bearing false witness against us yet again.

How can we say we do not say we do not need the faith which produces works *which is no faith at all) then say that all true faith produces works.

You keep talking yourself out of truth by not listening to what people say, Your wisdom you think is wise is based on false precepts and false knowledge of what truth faith is, and what those who teach faith only believe.

Can one who is ALREADY a Christian NOT do any good works at all (just have faith only) and still be saved by that faith only?

If you think faith only saves then you would answer this question with a hardy "YES!", right?

 

[SeaBass]

There is no such thing as faith only (apart from works)

Your whole argument is based on a lie. Satan has you duped and your blind to it.

No such thing as faith only??????? Then how can one be saved by something that does not exist? Some on this forum think one is saved by faith only and here you say faith only does not exist.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You just described a works-based salvation in the clearest way possible. Is what Jesus did enough for your salvation, or did Jesus pass you the baton in order for you to finish the race? If he passed you the baton, then he isn't your savior, you are your own savior because your salvation is dependent upon you.

That is the sad and self righteous reality of such a gospel that you are currently subscribed to. Such a doctrine makes the Gospel no different than the religions of the world. It removes grace and bases it in works. You are working your way into Heaven as other's work their way into Nirvana. Has Jesus' sacrifice made no difference? Did the cross change things? Is Jesus not able to save you completely, always interceding on your behalf? (Hebrews 7:25)

I have faith in my Lord which is why I trust and obey what He told us we must do to be saved.
He said the one who believes will be saved.
[h=3]John 3:16[/h]“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Believing in Him is what will save you. Now lets look closer at this scripture for there are those who misunderstand the concept of the word I highlighted. To believe in somebody, means you believe and trust what they said to you.
This is what Jesus said we must do;

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

You must take up your cross and follow Him, by denying yourself means to leave your past life of sin behind by pinning it to the cross and being renewed in mind through repentance and baptism. Turning to a new creation walking in the spirit instead of walking after the flesh. Jesus also made these statements about being a follower of His.



Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.




Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.




Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



We see the Lord here in the first scripture given saying that why do some call Him their Lord and don't do the things He ask of us to do. Then in that same scripture says their fall will be great. Not all who call Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven is another thing He says to go with this.
The next two scriptures I give show Jesus commanding baptism to be done, and also in the great commission He states we are to obey/observe in other versions all that He commands.

If to go one step further in Matthew 25 we are given the separation of the sheep from the goats.
Now most will tell you this is believers separated from unbelievers, and I believe that to an extent because the goats are actually pictured as those who have a dead faith. You will notice in both verses 37 and 44 how both groups believe Jesus as their Lord, but what happens to each group depending on what they do;

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”



One group gets eternal life, and the other gets sent to eternal punishment. This passage is set in the same chapter with the 10 virgins which also shows two groups that believe in the Lord. Because one was not prepared, and the other was only the ones prepared went into heaven. Also in this chapter is the parable of bags of gold, only the servant that built on what He was given was welcomed, the unfaithful servant that did not was cast to outer darkness.

 

[4enlightment]

But faith only says you do not have to have to have a faith that produces these works and can still be saved.

But if your faith must produce theses works then that makes your salvation by faith dependent upon doing these works.

To produce good fruits takes works. But if you doesn't produce good fruits, then you'll be cast away. So make a tree good,and its fruit will be good and which that also takes works. You'll shouldn't be listening to anyone about what takes faith, because they already knows where they are headed, but they are trying to take you with them. And so you should go by what is written, not by what some else tell you. So if someone tell you something, make sure the scriptures confirm it.