Simple Question...No Simple Answer

[BenFTW]

SeaBass I wonder what your intention is? I don't know if you're really that fallacious or if you really are that blind. I don't say that to insult you, but to state it as a matter of fact. It is not an ad hominem, it is just plainly seen. Your logic is fallacious on many accounts, and you have ignored my refutation of your question being a dichotomy. You must re-word it, otherwise it is not answerable, let alone biblically.

Genuine faith may result in works. That statement does not go in contrast with faith only. Some people may not have the chance to do such works or some people may not listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit (out of ignorance). We are not saved by faith plus something (works), we are saved by grace through faith. You wish to put emphasis on works, as to say if you do not work then you are condemned. Such a thing is said in contrast to the grace of God. It is said in direct contrast to the Gospel.

We have faith that has the possibility of leading to works, but there are factors to consider why such works don't come to fruition. Also, when in James it speaks of faith without works being dead, that is equivalent to saying a body without a soul is dead. Notice, there is still a body but it is useless. It is the same with faith. It is useless without works, but what is it useless for? Salvation? No, guess again. It is useless for the rewards we will get for our works. Do you see? We are not getting a reward for our faith, but the reward is based upon our works; therefore faith without works is dead in so far as rewards are concerned.

Works are important, but they are not important for your salvation. As if they earn favor upon God's decision on Judgement Day (sarcasm). God's decision to save you is based upon His grace and what Jesus Christ has accomplished for you through his death and resurrection. Nothing else. NOTHING. NO THING. Continue to emphasize works, but do it for the right reasons. Not for salvation, because there is no other way to the Father except through the Son. Do it for rewards, even so just out of the goodness of your heart and who you now are in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can one who is ALREADY a Christian NOT do any good works at all (just have faith only) and still be saved by that faith only?

If you think faith only saves then you would answer this question with a hardy "YES!", right?

NO!

Because he WOULD NOT BE A CHRISTIAN. why? HE DID NOT HAVE SAVING FAITH.

You think God is going to save someone who does not have faith??

And should I answer it with a yes? NO! WHy? Mere beliefe will not save you. True faith saves you. Those who have to faith will produce works their faith empowered them to do (with Christ.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No such thing as faith only??????? Then how can one be saved by something that does not exist? Some on this forum think one is saved by faith only and here you say faith only does not exist.

Because their is no such thing..
True faith produces works. False or dead faith will not work.

What is so hard to understand? Are you not going to work for someone you trust? Well maybe you will. who knows (rolls eyes)

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would say that faith only saves..........GOD looks at the heart and knows our intentions.

John 3:16
king james version(kjv)


16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Romans 4:1-2
king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.)[/SUP] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?[SUP]
2.)[/SUP] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before GOD.

Man needs to see your good (physical)works and if the faith is true a man will do good works.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but for others that might look at this post,if a person has been changed (saved) they already know that faith produces good work that can be seen and its a basic question that only someone would ask if they were not doing good works.

 

[SolidGround]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

Works are a product of Faith.
Let us use a metaphor. Oxygen will be Faith, and carbon dioxide will be works.

To live, a person must breath in oxygen, just as to be saved a person must have faith.
The natural product of respiration is carbon dioxide, just as the natural product of Faith is good works.

If a person breaths in air that has no oxygen they will suffocate, just as if a person does works without faith will perish.

The solution for a suffocating person is to be given oxygen, not carbon dioxide,
Just as the solution for an unbeliever is to be given Faith, not works.

Oxygen is what saves, not carbon dioxide,
Just as Faith is what saves, not works.

BUT, a person MUST breathe out once they have breathed in oxygen!

Keep the distinction Sea bass, because without it many deceive themselves into thinking they are saved,
but are simply going through the motions without any true life within the actions.

Preach Grace and Faith to the lost,
and urge the Believers on to good works.
Don't confuse the call given to Believers with the call given out to the lost.
There is an order of operations. Faith unto good works. Never confuse that order.

 

[kennethcadwell]

SeaBass I wonder what your intention is? I don't know if you're really that fallacious or if you really are that blind. I don't say that to insult you, but to state it as a matter of fact. It is not an ad hominem, it is just plainly seen. Your logic is fallacious on many accounts, and you have ignored my refutation of your question being a dichotomy. You must re-word it, otherwise it is not answerable, let alone biblically.

Genuine faith may result in works. That statement does not go in contrast with faith only. Some people may not have the chance to do such works or some people may not listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit (out of ignorance). We are not saved by faith plus something (works), we are saved by grace through faith. You wish to put emphasis on works, as to say if you do not work then you are condemned. Such a thing is said in contrast to the grace of God. It is said in direct contrast to the Gospel.

We have faith that has the possibility of leading to works, but there are factors to consider why such works don't come to fruition. Also, when in James it speaks of faith without works being dead, that is equivalent to saying a body without a soul is dead. Notice, there is still a body but it is useless. It is the same with faith. It is useless without works, but what is it useless for? Salvation? No, guess again. It is useless for the rewards we will get for our works. Do you see? We are not getting a reward for our faith, but the reward is based upon our works; therefore faith without works is dead in so far as rewards are concerned.

Works are important, but they are not important for your salvation. As if they earn favor upon God's decision on Judgement Day (sarcasm). God's decision to save you is based upon His grace and what Jesus Christ has accomplished for you through his death and resurrection. Nothing else. NOTHING. NO THING. Continue to emphasize works, but do it for the right reasons. Not for salvation, because there is no other way to the Father except through the Son. Do it for rewards, even so just out of the goodness of your heart and who you now are in Christ.

James is not talking about rewards.
James in verse 14 poses the question can faith alone save, and then that is when he goes on explaining how works go hand and hand with faith. Then that is when he says faith without works is dead, and compares it to the body without a spirit is dead.
If your faith does not produce good works, then you don't have a true faith in the Lord but a false one.
One who has true faith ( saving faith ) is a doer of the word, not just a hearer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You must ask the question correctly to receive a correct answer.

We are saved by grace. Grace is complete and totally efficacious. Nothing can be added to Gods grace. Grace is all of God and nothing of man. Faith is not grace. Faith is given by grace to those who hear the word of God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God. The word of God is able to make one wise unto salvation.

The works you claim one "must" do must be done by the Holy Spirit operating in the believer. All of man's works are as filthy rags in Gods sight. The peaceable fruit of righteousness is wrought by the Holy Spirit not by the will of man.

Faith is the trust we place in God that by His grace He saves us for all of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

well said, I could not agree more.

 

[kennethcadwell]

God's not Dead is a wonderful movie that shows the difference in a faith only attitude and a faith with works attitude.

Those who had faith only when asked to write God is dead on a peace of paper and sign it quickly did, the boy with the faith plus works attitude was a doer of the word and not just a hearer. He refused to deny God, he listened to the word and obey it.

 

[Jackson123]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

Jesus said the tree seen by if fruit.

If the man have real faith in Jesus than it must bear good fruit/work.

Brother why you believe save by work and believe in Vatican as the sole agent for salvation.

That why don't believe this institution have faith.

[h=1]Emanuela Orlandi, 15, Killed To Cover Up Vatican 'Sex Parties,' Claims Father Gabriele Amorth[/h]By Michael Billera @http://twitter.com/#!/MichaelBillera on May 23 2012 10:39 AM

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Father Gabriele Amorth, who was appointed by Pope John Paul II as the chief exorcist of the Vatican, claims that the a teenage girl who went missing in the 80s, Emanuela Orlandi, was murdered as part of underground Vatican sex parties with ties to the organized crime and foreign embassies.
Amorth said that in the summer of 1983, 15-year-old Orlandi was snatched from the streets of Rome and mysteriously vanished without a trace. He said she was forced to perform in sex parties.
This was a crime with a sexual motive, said Amorth, reported the Telegraph. Parties were organized, with a Vatican gendarme acting as the 'recruiter' of the girls. The network involved diplomatic personnel from a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe Emanuela ended up a victim of this circle.
For three decades, the fate of Orlandi has consumed Italian police investigators. In an effort to solve the cold case, police acted on an anonymous tip to a popular television show in which a supposed informant claimed Orlandi could be buried in a murdered gangster's tomb.
Last week, Italian authorities and forensic experts opened the tomb of mobster Enrico De Pedis's in their hunt for Orlandi's body. Bones not belonging to De Pedis were discovered in the crypt. Analysis is being done to determine if the bones belong to Orlandi.
De Pedis was a powerful and charismatic mobster who was ran a gang known as the Banda della Magliana. He was murdered at the age of 38 by members of his own crew after they had an internal dispute, reported the Sun.
Theories surrounding the missing Orlandi suggested that she was taken by De Pedis who wanted to put pressure on the Vatican to recover money that they were owed, reported the Sydney Morning Herald.
Another theory is that she was taken to be used as a bargaining chip in order to release Mehmet ali Agca, the Turkish gunman who attempted to assassinate Pope John Paul II, reportedly on orders from the KGB.
However, Father Amorth rejected these claims. Amorth said he is firm on his theory that the girl was abused and killed as that this was part all part of the conspiracy in the Vatican to cover up the sex parties.
'It led to the murder and then the hiding of her body, he said, reported the Daily Mail. Also involved is diplomatic staff from a foreign embassy to the Holy See.
The Vatican has yet to comment on Father Amorth's claims. However, they did say they have always co-operated with investigation into Emanuela Orlandi's murder.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Works are a product of Faith.
Let us use a metaphor. Oxygen will be Faith, and carbon dioxide will be works.

To live, a person must breath in oxygen, just as to be saved a person must have faith.
The natural product of respiration is carbon dioxide, just as the natural product of Faith is good works.

To live, a person's lunges must "works"

 

[BenFTW]

James is not talking about rewards.
James in verse 14 poses the question can faith alone save, and then that is when he goes on explaining how works go hand and hand with faith. Then that is when he says faith without works is dead, and compares it to the body without a spirit is dead.
If your faith does not produce good works, then you don't have a true faith in the Lord but a false one.
One who has true faith ( saving faith ) is a doer of the word, not just a hearer.

In regards to your emphasis on repentance as a work and the turning from sin, I would like to share a quote with you.

D. Martin Lloyd Jones says:

“If a man preaches justification by works, no one would ever raise this question. If a man’s preaching is, ‘If you want to be Christians, and if you want to go to heaven, you must stop committing sins, you must take up good works, and if you do so regularly and constantly, and do not fail to keep on at it, you will make yourselves Christians, you will reconcile yourselves to God, and you will go to heaven.’ Obviously, a man who preaches in that strain would never be liable to this misunderstanding. Nobody would say to such a man, ‘Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?’[boldness added by me for emphasis], because the man’s whole emphasis is just this, that if you go on sinning you are certain to be damned, and only if you stop sinning can you save yourselves…"

Its funny isn't it? The works-based gospel cannot have the same questions raised at it as the Gospel that Paul preached had raised.

I recommend you read this article, on this site. It will help redefine how you've been taught to read James and will clear up obvious contradictions with faith and works.
Link: http://www.tillhecomes.org/sermons/james/james_2_14-26/

 

[SolidGround]

To live, a person's lunges must "works"

That is why all men are without excuse.
It is still God that gives,
For all men have chosen to reject God.

Praise the Lord that He gives us a new heart (lungs in the metaphor I suppose) willing to accept Him!

 

[kennethcadwell]

In regards to your emphasis on repentance as a work and the turning from sin, I would like to share a quote with you.

D. Martin Lloyd Jones says:

“If a man preaches justification by works, no one would ever raise this question. If a man’s preaching is, ‘If you want to be Christians, and if you want to go to heaven, you must stop committing sins, you must take up good works, and if you do so regularly and constantly, and do not fail to keep on at it, you will make yourselves Christians, you will reconcile yourselves to God, and you will go to heaven.’ Obviously, a man who preaches in that strain would never be liable to this misunderstanding. Nobody would say to such a man, ‘Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?’[boldness added by me for emphasis], because the man’s whole emphasis is just this, that if you go on sinning you are certain to be damned, and only if you stop sinning can you save yourselves…"

Its funny isn't it? The works-based gospel cannot have the same questions raised at it as the Gospel that Paul preached had raised.

I recommend you read this article, on this site. It will help redefine how you've been taught to read James and will clear up obvious contradictions with faith and works.
Link: http://www.tillhecomes.org/sermons/james/james_2_14-26/

The thing is I never said you must stop committing sins, for we all will still sin.
The difference is are you living in willful sin that you do not repent of, or are you making an attempt to stop.
Those who live in willful sin, or turn back to a life of willful sin do not have salvation.

The other difference is recognizing that there is a difference between a works to earn salvation gospel which is wrong, and a works work hand and hand with faith for salvation teaching of the gospel which is very clearly shown in the bible.

Faith only churches are what have led to once saved always saved philosophies, but the fact remains that there is multiple warnings in the bible to believers about not living in willful sin, and/or turning back to willful sin.
You can not serve two masters. If you live in willful sin you serve sin, not the Lord. Only those who serve the Lord get salvation, those that serve sin will find their place in the lake of fire.

 

[posthuman]

To live, a person's lunges must "works"

not necessarily --

Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ?
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(Mark 12:26-27)

Abraham, Isaac & Jacob's lungs weren't working when Moses saw the burning bush.

When Jesus came into the official’s house, and saw the flute-players and the crowd in noisy disorder,
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep."
And they began laughing at Him.
(Matthew 9:24)

this little girl's lungs weren't working when He said she wasn't dead.

they laughed at Him, because they did not understand.

 

[Jabberjaw]

not necessarily --

Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ?
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(Mark 12:26-27)

Abraham, Isaac & Jacob's lungs weren't working when Moses saw the burning bush.

When Jesus came into the official’s house, and saw the flute-players and the crowd in noisy disorder,
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep."
And they began laughing at Him.
(Matthew 9:24)

this little girl's lungs weren't working when He said she wasn't dead.

they laughed at Him, because they did not understand.

Are you implying that Spirits need lunges or air?

and what might this have to do with whether someone can have faith but do "NO" works and still be saved or not?

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says faith without works is dead,which means we must have works to have faith active in our walk with God,which are works of the Spirit,and the Bible says that Abraham was justified by works and not faith alone.

The Bible says we are not saved by works,and then the Bible says faith without works is dead and we are justified by works.

It means that we are not saved by any works that we do according to the flesh,like the Old Testament ordinances or false religions,but when we repent of our sins and are saved then we have to have works of the Spirit to have faith active in our life,which we know we should do anyway.

We are not saved by anything we do according to the flesh,but we are saved by works that we do according to the Spirit.

The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling so what do they do with that scripture if they believe we do not participate in our salvation.

The truth is Christ saves us when we repent and are saved and allow the Spirit to lead us but we have to keep allowing the Spirit to lead us and do what is right.God is not going to twist our arm to live for Him after we are saved,so after Christ saves us then we have a responsiblity to keep allowing the Spirit to lead us in order to keep that salvation active,but of course if we live in sin not allowing the Spirit to lead us,we can repent of our sins and be led of the Spirit again.

 

[Elin]

What is your game with the "yes or no answer"?

One sincerely seeking truth and understanding does not limit answers to yes or no.

"Thy speech doth betray thee."

Yes or no. . .have you stopped beating your friend?

Not a game, just a simple question.

Like my simple "yes or no" question which you do not answer--have you stopped beating your friend?

 

[mailmandan]

Must one have faith to be saved? You would probably answer "yes".

Yes. We are saved by grace through faith.

But above you post "Genuine faith is evidenced by good works"

You just tied having a genuine faith to works. Your statement implies one CANNOT have a "genuine faith" WITHOUT works.

Good works are the DEMONSTRATIVE EVIDENCE that faith is genuine. Genuine good works cannot be produced without first having genuine faith. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. We are made alive together with Christ, saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Can I be saved WITHOUT a "

genuine faith"? No.

The answer is no and genuine faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in works.

Do I have a "

genuine faith" if it produces no works? No.

The answer is no and that is a dead faith evidenced by a lack of works. Good works are the fruit of a living faith, not a dead faith.

Then having a "genuine faith" that saves is dependent upon that "genuine faith" producing works for if it does not produce then it is not "genuine".

"Genuine faith" that saves is dependent upon that "genuine faith" trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation. Genuine faith in Christ is alive, not dead, and good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of genuine faith and not the means of our salvation.

In short, you have made it IMPOSSIBLE for one to have a "genuine faith" that saves but not have works.

It would be impossible to have "genuine faith" that saves but then NEVER produce any good works. All believers are fruitful, but not all believers are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

Can one who has a "genuine faith" that saves never do any good works and still be saved?

That is an oxymoron. If we have genuine faith, then it will show. Why do you have so much faith in works? Isn't Christ's finished work of redemption sufficient enough for you? Why do you feel the need to turn to supplements?

If you answer "yes" then you are refuting you own position that a "genuine faith" will produce works giving evidence of that faith and refuting Eph 2:10 that says God before ordained Christians are to walk in good works.

I didn't answer yes because genuine faith that never produces any good works is an oxymoron. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. Saved FOR good works is NOT saved by good works. Christians walk in good works BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved.

If you answer "no" then you are saying one cannot be saved by faith only but must produce works.

We are not saved by faith only - per James - EMPTY PROFESSION OF FAITH - SAYS/CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH BUT HAS NO WORKS (James 2:14). The absence of evidence (of works) can be construed as evidence of absence (of faith). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root. We SHOW our faith by our works. Genuine saving faith in Christ is first rooted and established when we "trust exclusively in Christ for salvation" then good works follow as the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

 

[Elin]

Like they see your avoidance of my "yes or no" question--have you stopped beating your friend?

If he never "started" beating his friend, the answer would be "no", he cannot stop something he never started, so what is your point?

You have precisely made my point.

In terms of the question, which terms are the problem, "no" means he has not stopped, and is still beating his friend.

 

[Elin]

No, I am still beating my friend.

Then you are an incorrigible, confessed and guilty criminal who hard-heartedly refuses to give up his crime.

You are subject to criminal charges and penalty, which should be executed against you.

Can one's faith never produce works and still be saved anyway? IF you think faith only saves then you MUST answer "yes".

Contradiction of terms. . .non-sensical, absurd question.