Baptism symbol only ?

[PACEMAKER]

well there's "judging" and there's "judging"

some wag said "i'm not your judge, but i am a fruit inspector"

i get all uncomfortable-like when we start calling out hellfire and eternal damnation on each other, as though we have the authority or knowledge to do that. i know, Christ told the apostles that what they forgave would be forgiven - but ultimately salvation is in the hands of God.

i'm not your enemy, nb, even though we fuss at each other a lot. you believe in the risen Christ; i believe in the risen Christ -- we're both headed to be with Him eternally, so we really ought to be able to get along with each other on earth. i mean, here's a 53-page long "discussion" about baptism we're having, but we've both been baptized, and we both say every believer must be baptized .. fundamentally we agree about so much, i don't think it's my place to ever say "you're not saved"

you know? at the end of the day we ought to be side by side serving in the same soup kitchen. we shouldn't let our different understandings of the mysteries of God turn brothers into enemies. God will show us all the truth of it in His own time, when everything is revealed.

From what I understand about what is being said about "water baptism"
Is that some ????
1, Believe that a person is NOT Saved until they are "water baptized"
2. Our sins are NOT forgiven Until "water baptized"
3, We do NOT receive the Holy Spirit until "water baptized"
4. "water baptism" is NOT a work

To me whoever Believes the above statements are taking away from what Jesus Christ
did on the Cross.
Their have been Hundreds of verses of Scripture that have been posted that
Contradict this Belief about "water baptized"
Paul Agreed with me

I Corinthians 1:17
King James Bible
For Christ sent me not to baptize,
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

IF "water baptism" is a Requirement for Salvation
Just WHY did Paul say
That he came NOT TO BAPTIZE.... ????

 

[VCO]

if you charge me of wanting to rob God...please show me how...I am what I am by the grace of God....I know this because He gave me power to say no to the things that had me in bondage.....I know what it is to suffer in the flesh to cease from sin...and I say ......even though He slay me yet will I serve him......my life is in his hands...
Matthew 5:16

American Standard Version
Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Now there is the kind of things you have not been saying that led us to believe you thought you were Earning your Salvation. There is the humility that we see in ALL true Christians, and the Praising HIM for giving you the ability to do what pleases HIM. As I suspected long ago, our major differences are how we use the same terminologies, but differ in their meanings. AMEN, thank you for that POST.

 

[PACEMAKER]

I did not miss nothing, all I asked was a question that can be given a simple yes or no answer.
People want to keep putting salvation, or saved before obedience which can not be so. Because you have to obey the command to repent of your sins before you are saved. Jesus makes it clear that you will still perish if you don't repent of your sins. ( Luke 13:3 ).
The forgiving of sins and confessing Him before others are also commands that are to be obeyed for salvation. If you don't forgive others, or you deny Him before others; He will not forgive you, and He will deny you.
To be saved is a process in a believers life, not an automatic.....Jesus and Paul both show this.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


Notice Jesus says the one who endures to the end is saved, and Paul says that the message of the cross is the power of God for us who are being saved; as in a process. Not that we are, or were saved, but being saved....

Kenneth C check out this info

The New Testament writers use different Greek words—
words that emphasize the gracious
and absolutely free quality of the gift.
Here are the two words most commonly used
for the gift of salvation:

1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.”
This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—
it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved.
Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God.
It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10).
It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15.

It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15.
This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit

in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.

The adverb form of this word is dorean,
translated “freely”
in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17.

In Romans 3:24, immediately following God’s
pronouncement of our guilt,

we have this use of dorean:

“Being justified FREELY by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”

The gift of salvation is free,
and the motive for the gift is nothing more
than the grace of the Giver.

2) Charisma, meaning “a gift of grace.”
This word is used to define salvation in Romans 5:15-16.
Also, in Romans 6:23:“For the wages of sin is death,

but the GIFT [charisma] of God
is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

This same word is used in conjunction with
the gifts of the Spirit received after salvation
(Romans 12:6; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6; 1 Peter 4:10).

Obviously,
if something is a “gift of grace,”
it cannot be earned.

To work for something is to deserve it,
and that would produce an obligation
a gift of debt, as it were.

That is why works destroy grace (Romans 4:1-5; 11:5-6).

When presenting salvation,
the New Testament writers carefully chose words
that emphasize grace and freedom.

As a result, the Bible could not be more clear—
salvation is absolutely free,
the true gift of God in Christ,
and our only responsibility is
to receive the gift by faith
(John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).

Do you Think that you can DO
Something that would Deserve your Salvation....??????

 

[VCO]

I did not miss nothing, all I asked was a question that can be given a simple yes or no answer.
People want to keep putting salvation, or saved before obedience which can not be so. Because you have to obey the command to repent of your sins before you are saved. Jesus makes it clear that you will still perish if you don't repent of your sins. ( Luke 13:3 ).
The forgiving of sins and confessing Him before others are also commands that are to be obeyed for salvation. If you don't forgive others, or you deny Him before others; He will not forgive you, and He will deny you.
To be saved is a process in a believers life, not an automatic.....Jesus and Paul both show this.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


Notice Jesus says the one who endures to the end is saved, and Paul says that the message of the cross is the power of God for us who are being saved; as in a process. Not that we are, or were saved, but being saved....

AND that is in total agreement with WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDS, now isn't it? BUT when you try to MAKE that say you are not SAVED until the END, IT ONLY CREATES CONTRADICTIONS.

Acts 2:47 (ASV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved.

Romans 8:24 (GW)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] We were saved with this hope in mind. If we hope for something we already see, it's not really hope. Who hopes for what can be seen?

Romans 5:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!

Ephesians 2:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth C check out this info

The New Testament writers use different Greek words—
words that emphasize the gracious
and absolutely free quality of the gift.
Here are the two words most commonly used
for the gift of salvation:

1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.”
This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—
it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved.
Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God.
It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10).
It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15.

It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15.
This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit

in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.

The adverb form of this word is dorean,
translated “freely”
in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17.

In Romans 3:24, immediately following God’s
pronouncement of our guilt,

we have this use of dorean:

“Being justified FREELY by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”

The gift of salvation is free,
and the motive for the gift is nothing more
than the grace of the Giver.

2) Charisma, meaning “a gift of grace.”
This word is used to define salvation in Romans 5:15-16.
Also, in Romans 6:23:“For the wages of sin is death,

but the GIFT [charisma] of God
is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

This same word is used in conjunction with
the gifts of the Spirit received after salvation
(Romans 12:6; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6; 1 Peter 4:10).

Obviously,
if something is a “gift of grace,”
it cannot be earned.

To work for something is to deserve it,
and that would produce an obligation
a gift of debt, as it were.

That is why works destroy grace (Romans 4:1-5; 11:5-6).

When presenting salvation,
the New Testament writers carefully chose words
that emphasize grace and freedom.

As a result, the Bible could not be more clear—
salvation is absolutely free,
the true gift of God in Christ,
and our only responsibility is
to receive the gift by faith
(John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).

Do you Think that you can DO
Something that would Deserve your Salvation....??????

That is right it is a gift, but the thing is I never said you earn salvation, that is what you have mistaken me saying.
What I said is salvation is a process that is worked into a believers life by our Lord through the Holy Spirits guidance.
We are molded to perfection, but one can chose to deny that guidance any time in their walk with the Lord. Then unless they come back in repentance they will remain lost.

AND that is in total agreement with WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDS, now isn't it? BUT when you try to MAKE that say you are not SAVED until the END, IT ONLY CREATES CONTRADICTIONS.

Acts 2:47 (ASV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved.

Romans 8:24 (GW)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] We were savedwith this hope in mind. If we hope for something we already see, it's not really hope. Who hopes for what can be seen?

Romans 5:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!

Ephesians 2:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

What I said does not contradict keeping the Lords commandments.
To endure to the end to be saved, and listening and following the gospel in your process to being saved like Paul said means in your walk you must not waver and fall back to willful sin, be lead astray by false teaching, and to show you are in a saved state by following the greatest command to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
If you follow the greatest command then you will not want to deny doing any of what Jesus said.

 

[VCO]

Jesus said to "work"... "for the food that endures to eternal life" Jh.6:27, That is a VERB. Paul said "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" Phil.2:12, that is a VERB. SORRY, newbirth, you don't read eng. so well. That is not a noun, in those verses, please STOP pulling the wool over our eyes, You are twisting the plain words of scripture. If I don't "WORK" for my salvation, I don't get IT. According to Rom. 6:22, and Rom.2:4-13 and Jh,3: 21, etc. etc., eternal life will be for those who are born again of God and do good works; Repent, trust and obey is the message for our salvation. Love Hoffco

I told you "work out your salvation" DOES NOT MEAN "work for your salvation".

It means let the SALVATION GOD has placed in you (PAST TENSE), be manifested to others by your deeds.

 

[VCO]

That is right it is a gift, but the thing is I never said you earn salvation, that is what you have mistaken me saying.
What I said is salvation is a process that is worked into a believers life by our Lord through the Holy Spirits guidance.
We are molded to perfection, but one can chose to deny that guidance any time in their walk with the Lord. Then unless they come back in repentance they will remain lost.






What I said does not contradict keeping the Lords commandments.
To endure to the end to be saved, and listening and following the gospel in your process to being saved like Paul said means in your walk you must not waver and fall back to willful sin, be lead astray by false teaching, and to show you are in a saved state by following the greatest command to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
If you follow the greatest command then you will not want to deny doing any of what Jesus said.

Please read my above Post, no point in repeating it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I did read your post, and it is about the same thing one who wants to work to earn their salvation. Work for their salvation.
Work out your own salvation, means you are to walk in love keeping your sins from controlling your life again and not falling back into a willful sin.
You have to endure the temptations in life, and not give back into them to where they become your main focus again.

 

[VCO]

I did read your post, and it is about the same thing one who wants to work to earn their salvation. Work for their salvation.
Work out your own salvation, means you are to walk in love keeping your sins from controlling your life again and not falling back into a willful sin.
You have to endure the temptations in life, and not give back into them to where they become your main focus again.

Are you saying you think that the Genuinely SAVED, can fall from that Salvation? If so, I know some very reliable Witnesses who can argue that point with you, FAR BETTER THAN I CAN:

John 17:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 14:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

Colossians 1:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] God wanted to make known among the Gentiles the glorious wealth of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

John 10:28-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

Jude 1:24-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


The only question that I see, is whether or not HE began the good work or was it ONLY YOURSELF.


1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[newbirth]

From what I understand about what is being said about "water baptism"
Is that some ????
1, Believe that a person is NOT Saved until they are "water baptized"
2. Our sins are NOT forgiven Until "water baptized"
3, We do NOT receive the Holy Spirit until "water baptized"
4. "water baptism" is NOT a work

To me whoever Believes the above statements are taking away from what Jesus Christ
did on the Cross.
Their have been Hundreds of verses of Scripture that have been posted that
Contradict this Belief about "water baptized"
Paul Agreed with me

I Corinthians 1:17
King James Bible
For Christ sent me not to baptize,
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

IF "water baptism" is a Requirement for Salvation
Just WHY did Paul say
That he came NOT TO BAPTIZE.... ????

if it was not a requirement why was Paul baptised....why did he baptise people ...and command people to be baptised?
seems like you have the same problem understanding scripture like decontrovesial and eternally grateful...

 

[VCO]

if it was not a requirement why was Paul baptised....why did he baptise people ...and command people to be baptised?
seems like you have the same problem understanding scripture like decontrovesial and eternally grateful...

WHO SAID IT WASN'T A REQUIREMENT?

You still do not get it, do you.

THERE is a VAST difference between what is required for Salvation,

And What is Required to Walk in Obedience to our LORD.

It is so obvious that not even a blind man could miss it.

Yet you seem totally blind to it.

HERE is the Requirements for Salvation in a nutshell.


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


Therefore, if we can find out how GOD SAVED ONE MAN, we will KNOW how HE SAVES ALL MEN.


Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

NOT believed PLUS Water Baptism.

NOT believed PLUS Circumcision.

NOT believed PLUS Sabbath Keeping.

NOT believed PLUS Obedience.

But remember the Jewish Definition of believed involves really showing you DID BELIEVE and were SAVED by your Lifestyle of Obedience. Salvation is the SAME as "credited to him for righteousness". Abraham Really BELIEVED GOD, thus HE was SAVED the moment He BELIEVED, however AFTER HE WAS SAVED, Abraham demonstrated that HIS Salvation was REAL, by offering up ISAAC as a Sacrifice to TO GOD. You see Abraham genuinely BELIEVED GOD that if it was GOD's will that he followed through with the Sacrifice, that GOD would also have the POWER to raise ISAAC back up from the DEAD. SO ABRAHAM WAS SAVED BEFORE HE EVER SPLIT THE WOOD FOR THE BURNT OFFERING AND LEFT HOME WITH THE WOOD.

For the same reason, Water Baptism has always been a Requirement to Walk in Obedience, to our LORD, but it NEVER has been part of the Requirement to be SAVED.

 

[Jackson123]

Water baptism is symbol only.

Baptism mean immersion.

Baptism in the name of Jesus mean immersion in the name of Jesus.

Water is not real Jesus, Water is symbol of Jesus, or symbol you bury with Jesus when Jesus die on the Cross.

You not really bury with Jesus and Jesus not buried in the water. It all figurative or symbol.

It is the different between symbol and real.

 

[Jackson123]

WHO SAID IT WASN'T A REQUIREMENT?

You still do not get it, do you.

THERE is a VAST difference between what is required for Salvation,

And What is Required to Walk in Obedience to our LORD.

It is so obvious that not even a blind man could miss it.

Yet you seem totally blind to it.

HERE is the Requirements for Salvation in a nutshell.


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


Therefore, if we can find out how GOD SAVED ONE MAN, we will KNOW how HE SAVES ALL MEN.


Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

NOT believed PLUS Water Baptism.

NOT believed PLUS Circumcision.

NOT believed PLUS Sabbath Keeping.

NOT believed PLUS Obedience.

But remember the Jewish Definition of believed involves really showing you DID BELIEVE and were SAVED by your Lifestyle of Obedience. Salvation is the SAME as "credited to him for righteousness". Abraham Really BELIEVED GOD, thus HE was SAVED the moment He BELIEVED, however AFTER HE WAS SAVED, Abraham demonstrated that HIS Salvation was REAL, by offering up ISAAC as a Sacrifice to TO GOD. You see Abraham genuinely BELIEVED GOD that if it was GOD's will that he followed through with the Sacrifice, that GOD would also have the POWER to raise ISAAC back up from the DEAD. SO ABRAHAM WAS SAVED BEFORE HE EVER SPLIT THE WOOD FOR THE BURNT OFFERING AND LEFT HOME WITH THE WOOD.

For the same reason, Water Baptism has always been a Requirement to Walk in Obedience, to our LORD, but it NEVER has been part of the Requirement to be SAVED.

Yup, how one claim believe/ entrust to the Lord but not obey to the Lord?

Believe here is not just that believe that Jesus is God. If so Satan also believe that Jesus is God.

Believe here mean entrust/ do what ever He ask you to do.

We want to go to heaven. we don't know the way. Than Jesus said follow me, I bring you to heaven. I give you a map/bible.

How one claim to believe and not follow what ever He want to follow.

If Jesus said turn right, You said you entrust to Him and you turn left, it it lie you not really entrust to Him.

That simple.

 

[VCO]

Water baptism is symbol only.

Baptism mean immersion.

Baptism in the name of Jesus mean immersion in the name of Jesus.

Water is not real Jesus, Water is symbol of Jesus, or symbol you bury with Jesus when Jesus die on the Cross.

You not really bury with Jesus and Jesus not buried in the water. It all figurative or symbol.

It is the different between symbol and real.

ALSO, here is the Immersion that SAVED US, and it is NOT immersed into WATER:

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[VCO]

Yup, how one claim believe/ entrust to the Lord but not obey to the Lord?

Believe here is not just that believe that Jesus is God. If so Satan also believe that Jesus is God.

Believe here mean entrust/ do what ever He ask you to do.

We want to go to heaven. we don't know the way. Than Jesus said follow me, I bring you to heaven. I give you a map/bible.

How one claim to believe and not follow what ever He want to follow.

If Jesus said turn right, You said you entrust to Him and you turn left, it it lie you not really entrust to Him.

That simple.

You just described why I do not believe there is SALVATION apart from Receiving and submitting to JESUS as LORD, which means MASTER.

 

[Jackson123]

ALSO, here is the Immersion that SAVED US, and it is NOT immersed into WATER:

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Yup, If immersion into water save us, why don't we immerse into swimming pool every day?

 

[VCO]

Yup, If immersion into water save us, why don't we immerse into swimming pool every day?

Never thought of this before, but the Day the 3000 were Baptized, I think it was obvious that they were baptized in one of the Mikveh pools at the Temple; BUT being in a hurry before the Sanhedrin caught them, I doubt if anyone changed the water half ways through. I wonder what color the water was when the last one stepped into that Mikveh pool? Might have made the muddy Mississippi River look clean.

 

[VCO]

Yup, If immersion into water save us, why don't we immerse into swimming pool every day?

I used to many, many years ago, but I was the lifeguard that was assigned the duty of cleaning the pool back then, before we opened the pool for the day.

 

[Jackson123]

Never thought of this before, but the Day the 3000 were Baptized, I think it was obvious that they were baptized in one of the Mikveh pools at the Temple; BUT being in a hurry before the Sanhedrin caught them, I doubt if anyone changed the water half ways through. I wonder what color the water was when the last one stepped into that Mikveh pool? Might have made the muddy Mississippi River look clean.

And this is the only water deposit available surrounding. not even fit to immerse one person.

 

[Jackson123]

I used to many, many years ago, but I was the lifeguard that was assigned the duty of cleaning the pool back then, before we opened the pool for the day.

So you have been baptized thousands brother.