Do you agree with the doctrine that says JESUS died spiritually?

[dcontroversal]

I view it this way....

David said he would see his first born son again after his death...the son that God took because of David's sin with the daughter of Sheba and the killing of Uriah....

I see two things from scripture...

Safe under the blood of Christ<--a baby/child that has not reached a point where they comprehend sin, being lost and needing redemption...also applied unto those who are not mentally able to make said decision (mentally handicapped)\

Saved under the blood of Christ<--those who have reached a point where they comprehend sin, being lost and needing salvation and have made a decision based upon faith

Concerning Paul...he was safe under the blood until he reached the point that he recognized his own sin and sinful nature at which time he died (was found under banner two above) needing to be saved from his own sin and sin nature!

 

[phil112]

Yeah, all except Christ Himself said this...

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He said that He was dead, not a fleshly husk but He died and that He was made alive again, not His fleshly body.

Of course it was His fleshly body! I have given scripture after scripture showing that Christ's spirit, not only didn't die, but couldn't. He never went to hell, only the grave. And His dead body was kept from corruption, decay, by His Father so that He could use it again in 3 days.

What is about truth that makes you so resentful and hardheaded? What is that all about? Read the bible! I am only the messenger.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If a person dies in their physical body and they haven't been reborn then they are spiritually dead.

GOD is a SPIRIT and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth.

 

[Butch5]

What does being born again even mean to you? Do you think Jesus was talking about physical birth?

I addressed this in post 100. Born again is a metaphor for

Oh, and yes, every one has a spirit that returns to God. The phrase "spiritual death" does not mean your spirit body ceases to exist. "Spiritual death" means that one's spirit is not spiritually alive to God (Because of their sin - Which separates them from being favor with God).

I'm not sure what spirit body you're talking about but there is only one spirit in man and it is God's spirit. God's spirit doesn't die so there can be no spiritual death.

If a wicked person dies in their sins their soul/spirit still exists but they are dead spiritually to God.

According to Gen 2 a soul requires a body to exist and we know when one dies their body returns to the dust. The spirit is God's spirit and it returns to Him, that means there's nothing left.

When a person who is wicked dies, they go to a place called Hell or Hades. It is a place of torment and not torture. More like a prison and not like how Hollywood and others like to portray it. Also, the soul/spirit is not created immortal.

I agree that man is not immortal. Hades is the grave, everyone who dies goes to Hades, the grave. It's not a place of torment, it's the grave. The Scriptures say the dead know nothing.

The Scriptures say, God alone possesses immortality. And this immortality is only in the Son. For Jesus says I come to give you life and to give it to you more abundantly. John says, he that has the Son has LIFE and he that does not have the Son DOES NOT HAVE LIFE. Jesus says, fear not him who can kill the body, but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell (i.e. Gehenna, - The Lake of Fire). The wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire and God (Christ) will have victory over evil once and for all by eliminating it. For evil was never intended to be a permant part of God's plan for mankind. He will destroy it. For God destroys His enemies.

I agree with most of what you've said here, except that it is the Father alone who has immortality.

 

[Butch5]

Besides, if you were to compare Romans 8:13 to Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:8,9, you would notice that it is referring to one particular truth that is written in 3 different ways. This one truth is talking about "spiritual death" and not "physical death."

Compare Romans 8:13 that says "not inherit the kingdom of God" with Galatians 5:19-21 that says, "and reap destruction instead of reap eternal life" in Galatians 6:8,9. Truly Paul was was referencing spiritual death here (Galatians 5:21).

No, the kingdom of God is the land promised to Abraham and his Seed, who Paul says is Christ. The inheritance that Scripture refers to is that promised to Abraham and his Seed.

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (Gen 13:15-17 KJV)

God promised to give the land to Abraham. Abraham never received that land. The only way he can receive it is in the resurrection. God also made the same promise to Isaac and Jacob. That is why the Jews thought that they would enter the kingdom by their birthright as the seed of Abraham. However, Paul comes alone and explains that when God made the promise to Abraham and his Seed, He didn't mean all of Abraham's physical seed but rather He meant one Seed in particular and the one Seed is Christ.

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. {accounted: or, imputed}
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. {covenant: or, testament}
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:6-16 KJV)

Paul says that those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham. Paul concludes the chapter by saying that those who are Christ's are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. The promise is the land. David also tells us that Christ would inherit the land.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. {the decree: or, for a decree}
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (Psa 2:7-8 KJV)

The word earth is literally translated land.

Inheriting the kingdom means to inherit the land.

 

[Butch5]

Furthermore, the Scripture say,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." (John 8:51)

In other words, Jesus was definitely not talking about physical death because many of the righteous saints have remained faithful to the point of death. So this is talking about "spiritual death."

He' not speaking of spiritual death, He's speaking of the resurrection. Notice He speaks of one who judges and the verse in question is accurately translated this ways,

YLT John 8:51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see -- to the age.' (Joh 8:51 YLT)

It doesn't mean they will never see death, it means they will not see death to the age. The judgment begins the age to come, those who believe will not see death those who don't believe will.

 

[Butch5]

Also, you can't just say the word "death" is metaphorical within Luke 9:60 and 1 Timothy 5:6 without offering a clear cut understanding of what that metaphorical phrase actually is. Just saying it is a metaphor and then not providing an explanation implies you do not have a clear understanding of what the word is actually saying within this passage here. Do you know what it says metaphorically? For I understand perfectly what it says and it fits the context. If you disagree, then explain the metaphorical interpretation on the word "death" within passages using the context.

Sure, in Luke 9 Jesus is contrasting "the dead" with you go preach the Gospel. The Gospel brings life those who have it have life those who don't don't have life. He's basically using dead the same way Paul does in Ephesians 2:8. Paul uses dead in sins as a metaphor for their inability to do anything about their condition. Unless Christ had redeemed them they would remain in their sins. Those in Luke 9 were without the Gospel so Jesus refers to them as dead. If you notice there is nothing in the passage about anything spiritual, again, that idea has to be brought to the text. That idea is brought to the text when someone is sead to be dead but they obviously aren't physically dead. However, I suggest there is a much more Scriptural explanation.

Likewise the passage in 1 Timothy 5 is a metaphor. He says if a widow lives in pleasure she is dead while she lives. It's obvious that she's not living for Christ. It's similar to the prodigal son who was said to be dead until he returned home. Remember, Paul is speaking of Christian widows. If you claim this is spiritual death then that means that if Christian widows live in pleasure they are spiritually dead. How can a person be spiritually dead and be a Christian?

Now, I'll say the same thing back to you. You can't just claim it's spiritual death without proving it from the Scriptures. In order to claim these passages are speaking of spiritual death you need to establish from the Scriptures that there is such a thing as spiritual death.

 

[Butch5]

Without reading all the posts from last night., I was thinking on this the other day. Jesus is the God-man. He is not like us in that He had the same nature as us. Not even a nature like Adam before Adam sinned. Jesus was a totally different kind of human. He is the God-man.

100% man., 100% God. Not sure how to fathom that but will accept it by faith.

God doesn't die spiritually.

I'll have to disagree with you here Ladylynn. Scripture says that Jesus was in all ways like as were are.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:17 KJV)

He was like us in all ways. Scripture also says that He was in the form of God but emptied Himself.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:5-7 NAS)

He emptied Himself of the form of God and became a man. That's why His sacrifice was so great, He was in the form of God and gave that up to come and save mankind. I boggles the mind.

 

[phil112]

I'll have to disagree with you here Ladylynn. Scripture says that Jesus was in all ways like as were are.............................

He was as we are physically, not spiritually. To be like us spiritually He would have had to take on that first sin we got from Adam. That is why the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary. So that we would have a blameless paschal lamb to pay for our sin. Christ has never been guilty of sin, nor carried sin. He was charged with paying for our sin, not committing it. We are the guilty, He is the blameless. Anyone that has sin is not blameless, now are they?

Read posts 32, 44, 67, 81, and 118. It's all scripture. There are a lot of folks that are talk authoritatively about a subject that they haven't studied and or have enough understanding of. It's all bible, just read it.

 

[ladylynn]

I'll have to disagree with you here Ladylynn. Scripture says that Jesus was in all ways like as were are.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:17 KJV)

He was like us in all ways. Scripture also says that He was in the form of God but emptied Himself.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:5-7 NAS)

He emptied Himself of the form of God and became a man. That's why His sacrifice was so great, He was in the form of God and gave that up to come and save mankind. I boggles the mind.

I can see why people might get confused on this issue but I'm thinking it has to do with not understanding the Deity of Christ. And that is a very important issue for us as believers.

Am reading from one of my study Bibles notes on Philippians 2:5-7 "... This passage on the humility of Christ is the high mark of the epistle.... uniqueness of the person and work of Christ...

2:6 the form of God. Christ is the same nature and essence as God. to be grasped. The verse may be paraphrased; Who, though of the same nature as God, did not think this something to be exploited to His own advantage.

2:7 emptied Himself. The kenosis (emptying) of Christ during His incarnation does not mean that He surrendered any attributes of deity, but that He took on the limitations of humanity.
This involved a veiling of His preincarnate glory (John 17:5) and the voluntary waiving of some of His divine prerogatives during the time He was on earth (Matt.24:36) "


Only the God-man could do this. A mere mortal could not do what Jesus did on the cross., to say otherwise sounds like denying deity or just not being exposed to the teaching of the deity of Christ.

 

[ladylynn]

Was trying to remember the word taught waaaaay back in Sunday school.,

PROPITIATION !!!!

 

[Dan58]

No one has spiritually died yet, that's something that you just don't come back from.

I suspect that when Jesus said; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" that he was temporarily separated from the Father, but not spiritually dead.

 

[Sophia]

Christ did not go to hell. Through His Spirit He preached to those "now in prison" because the Spirit of Christ was in Noah. He didn't travel back in time after He died on the Cross to give them a second chance. He didn't go to Hades and give the dead a second chance. Those NOW in prison heard the Gospel, through Noah, before they perished in the Flood. No one is without excuse. CS Lewis has a lot of good work, but this one error has thrown people for a loop.
Context context context. If they are NOW in prison, then they are not the captives that were led out.

 

[Jason0047]

I addressed this in post 100. Born again is a metaphor for

Well, currently I do not have time to address all the points you brought up here. So I will just address what I can in the time I have. Let's start with your belief that man does not have a spirit: Well, Zechariah 12:1 says God forms the spirit of man within him. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says the spirit returns to God in who gave it. Genesis 41:8 essentially says Pharoah's spirit was troubled. In Deuteronomy 2:30, we learn that God harden's a man's spirit. In other words, do a study on the word "spirit" in the Bible and you will see that it is not in reference to God, and or a dark spirit, etc. So man has a spirit when he is born. Paul says we are to keep three things blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the soul, the spirit, and the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). If the Spirit is in reference to God it doesn't make any sense because we can't corrupt God.

So if man has a spirit, then one is born AGAIN spiritually into God's Kingdom. For a person's spirit was born into this world when God created it at conception, and then it must be born AGAIN so as to enter the Kingdom of God. Meaning, a person needs to be reborn spiritually by the Hoy Spirit by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ (Who is God Almighty in the flesh) as their Savior in order to be saved. This is Christianity 101, my friend.

I'm not sure what spirit body you're talking about but there is only one spirit in man and it is God's spirit. God's spirit doesn't die so there can be no spiritual death.

What spirit body am I talking about? 1 Corinthians 15:44 says there is a spiritual body.

According to Gen 2 a soul requires a body to exist and we know when one dies their body returns to the dust. The spirit is God's spirit and it returns to Him, that means there's nothing left.

Do a key word search on the word "soul", too. You will find that the Bible mentions how God has a soul, too. Granted, God's soul is uncreated and eternal.

Does God Have a Soul? | Learn The Bible

I agree that man is not immortal. Hades is the grave, everyone who dies goes to Hades, the grave. It's not a place of torment, it's the grave. The Scriptures say the dead know nothing.

This is a metaphor or a poetic piece of text that is speaking from an external perspective of man's physical state after it dies. It is not in reference to the dead in the spirit world. For the rich man who died surely knew where he was at when he went to torments (See Luke 16).

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If a person dies in their physical body and they haven't been reborn then they are spiritually dead.

GOD is a SPIRIT and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth.

I meant separated from GOD when I said spiritually dead

 

[Jason0047]

Well, currently I do not have time to address all the points you brought up here. So I will just address what I can in the time I have. Let's start with your belief that man does not have a spirit: Well, Zechariah 12:1 says God forms the spirit of man within him. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says the spirit returns to God in who gave it. Genesis 41:8 essentially says Pharoah's spirit was troubled. In Deuteronomy 2:30, we learn that God harden's a man's spirit. In other words, do a study on the word "spirit" in the Bible and you will see that it is not in reference to God, and or a dark spirit, etc. So man has a spirit when he is born. Paul says we are to keep three things blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the soul, the spirit, and the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). If the Spirit is in reference to God it doesn't make any sense because we can't corrupt God.

So if man has a spirit, then one is born AGAIN spiritually into God's Kingdom. For a person's spirit was born into this world when God created it at conception, and then it must be born AGAIN so as to enter the Kingdom of God. Meaning, a person needs to be reborn spiritually by the Hoy Spirit by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ (Who is God Almighty in the flesh) as their Savior in order to be saved. This is Christianity 101, my friend.



What spirit body am I talking about? 1 Corinthians 15:44 says there is a spiritual body.



Do a key word search on the word "soul", too. You will find that the Bible mentions how God has a soul, too. Granted, God's soul is uncreated and eternal.

Does God Have a Soul? | Learn The Bible



This is a metaphor or a poetic piece of text that is speaking from an external perspective of man's physical state after it dies. It is not in reference to the dead in the spirit world. For the rich man who died surely knew where he was at when he went to torments (See Luke 16).

Meant to say the word "spirit" is not ALWAYS in reference to God, or evil spirits, etc.

 

[phil112]

No one has spiritually died yet, that's something that you just don't come back from.

I suspect that when Jesus said; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" that he was temporarily separated from the Father, but not spiritually dead.

I believe that Christ made that exclamation not to be accusing God of any such thing, but merely because He was in such great distress. Remember, He was a physical man, and as such, pain had the same affect on Him as us, He told us as much.
Remember too that He sweated blood. My belief is the pain He suffered during this ordeal, considering He was paying for all of mankind's sin, was greater agony than any other man has ever felt. I think that is why He asked why God had forsaken Him, not because He truly thought He had, but because of the intense agony He was experiencing.

For another rational explanation of it, Clarke had one that is reasonable.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]However, some think that the words, as they stand in the Hebrew and Syriac, are capable of a translation which destroys all objections, and obviates every difficulty. The particle hml lamah, may be translated, to what-to whom-to what kind or sort-to what purpose or profit: Genesis xxv. 32; Gen. xxxii. 29; xxxiii. 15; Job ix. 29; Jer. vi. 20; xx. 18; Am v. 18; and the verb bz[ azab signifies to leave-to deposit-to commit to the care of. See Gen. xxxix. 6; Job xxxix. 11; Psa. x. 14, and Jer. xlix. 11. The words, taken in this way, might be thus translated: My God! my God! to what sort of persons hast thou left me? The words thus understood are rather to be referred to the wicked Jews than to our Lord, and are an exclamation indicative of the obstinate wickedness of his crucifiers, who steeled their hearts against every operation of the Spirit and power of God. See Ling. Brit. Reform. by B. Martin, p. 36. [/FONT]

Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary - Matthew 27

 

[Butch5]

He was as we are physically, not spiritually. To be like us spiritually He would have had to take on that first sin we got from Adam. That is why the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary. So that we would have a blameless paschal lamb to pay for our sin. Christ has never been guilty of sin, nor carried sin. He was charged with paying for our sin, not committing it. We are the guilty, He is the blameless. Anyone that has sin is not blameless, now are they?

Read posts 32, 44, 67, 81, and 118. It's all scripture. There are a lot of folks that are talk authoritatively about a subject that they haven't studied and or have enough understanding of. It's all bible, just read it.

Phil,

I have studied this, in depth. I don't enter threads unless I know what I'm talking about. "All ways" means all ways. Christ was made in all ways like unto His brethren, that's what Scriptures says. There is nothing in Scripture that says Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. One can't be 100% something and also be something else, so that doesn't even work logically. Scripture also says that Christ was in the form of God and emptied Himself. When one empties something they take everything out. Being in the form of God, He emptied Himself, He emptied Himself of what? The form of God.



The apostle John said the word "became" flesh, He didn't put on flesh, He became flesh. To become something requires a change of state.

Post 32, I would suggest that Paradise isn't a subterranean place, but rather it's the kingdom of God.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7 KJV)

Translators put the comma in the wrong place, it should be after the word today, not before it. The thief wanted to know that he would be in the kingdom, not where he'd be later that day, he already knew that. He asks Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, and Jesus tells him he will be with Him in Paradise, it's the kingdom.

I agree with one sentence in post 81, it's this, "There is so much misunderstanding of the word." So many are talking about man's spirit, a spirit that is man and yet there is no such teaching in Scripture. Gen. 2:7 states plainly how mean was created and it doesn't say he is a spirit. God plainly states to Adam, 'you are dust.' There's nothing that says man is a spirit. People keep grabbing passages of Scripture that they believe support this idea, however, what they don't do is show a place in Scripture where it is taught that man is a spirit. They don't because there is no place that teaches that idea. It's not a Biblical concept, it actually came into the Christian faith through Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism.

 

[Butch5]

I can see why people might get confused on this issue but I'm thinking it has to do with not understanding the Deity of Christ. And that is a very important issue for us as believers.

Am reading from one of my study Bibles notes on Philippians 2:5-7 "... This passage on the humility of Christ is the high mark of the epistle.... uniqueness of the person and work of Christ...

2:6 the form of God. Christ is the same nature and essence as God. to be grasped. The verse may be paraphrased; Who, though of the same nature as God, did not think this something to be exploited to His own advantage.

2:7 emptied Himself. The kenosis (emptying) of Christ during His incarnation does not mean that He surrendered any attributes of deity, but that He took on the limitations of humanity.
This involved a veiling of His preincarnate glory (John 17:5) and the voluntary waiving of some of His divine prerogatives during the time He was on earth (Matt.24:36) "


Only the God-man could do this. A mere mortal could not do what Jesus did on the cross., to say otherwise sounds like denying deity or just not being exposed to the teaching of the deity of Christ.

Ladylynn,

Just because something is written in a study Bible doesn't mean it's correct. I gave you Scripture that plainly states the Christ was like His brethren in all ways. Paul said, that Christ was in the form of God and emptied Himself. To empty something means to take everything out of it. Christ emptied Himself of the form of God and became like His brethren. This is the early Christian understanding of Christ. What you're talking about is called Hypostatic Union and it's a doctrine that was created around the fifth century, it's not what was taught in the beginning.

 

[ladylynn]

Ladylynn,

Just because something is written in a study Bible doesn't mean it's correct. I gave you Scripture that plainly states the Christ was like His brethren in all ways. Paul said, that Christ was in the form of God and emptied Himself. To empty something means to take everything out of it. Christ emptied Himself of the form of God and became like His brethren. This is the early Christian understanding of Christ. What you're talking about is called Hypostatic Union and it's a doctrine that was created around the fifth century, it's not what was taught in the beginning.

Butch5, you mean because something is written in a study bible that doesn't mean it's correct????!!!!!!!!! Shocker.

I am well aware of the scripture verses you posted and I do NOT come up with the same interpretations you do. I do however accept the DEITY OF CHRIST and filter the verses though that undeniable truth. Unlike us, Jesus Christ IS God. Not sure how you can deny this Butch5. I won't do that. And apparently many other Christians won't either.

Scripture "plainly given" by you or anyone else doesn't take away the individual reading and interpretation the Holy Spirit has given me as a believer when I read those same verses.

To try and say Jesus died spiritually makes absolutely no sense if you BELIEVE Jesus is God. God cannot die and that is not JUST an early Christian understanding of Christ since I'm only 56 and have come to this conviction without reading about the "Hypostatic Union doctrine that was created in the fifth century..," I'm a 21st century believer and have been reading my Bible and learning for a good part of my life.

You do not have the corner on Bible reading or learning Butch5., I'm always surprised when believers like yourself on these forums somehow don't 'know' that.

Only God could save sinful humanity. Jesus is God with us.