Do you agree with the doctrine that says JESUS died spiritually?

[phil112]

The danger of such teaching is that "mistakenly" or not.........people who teach that Jesus, God the Son died (spirit), they are indirectly denying the Deity of Christ..........and that is a very dangerous thing to do in my opinion.

Jesus is God..........God has no beginning and no end.........God can not and will not ever die.......

The "image of man" that He took upon Himself was the fleshy/earthy body.............YES it died, but God the Son did not die.

There is so much misunderstanding of the word. It is astounding that people can't grasp the meaning. Indeed, Christ said most people wouldn't but it still amazes me.
You are, of course, absolutely correct. Christ is forever. He always has been, and always will be.
p_rehbein, what these folks don't understand is that a spirit never dies. When the bible talks about the second death, that is eternal punishment. It isn't the physical death of the spirit, but the spiritual death of the spirit. Our spirit, given by God, depends on Him for life. When we are separated from God our spirit is in such a state of despair it is a kind of death. Death being used as a description of ultimate distress. There is no help. We can't do anything for ourselves, nor can any other man. We are truly in dire straits. Eternal life is uniting our spirit with God in heaven. That is what our spirit was made for, and that is truly the epitome of life - being in God's presence.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Not even man's spirit dies a physical death. It lives in eternity separated from God. That folks, is what spiritual death is.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Okay, I Googled this thing, wondering whose doctrine this is, and it's a "Word Faith" Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, et al, doctrine, in other words, teachings of the "Christian" jet set, of the crowd, "I'm not a real minister, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

For those who don’t know, the ‘Word Faith’ movement is a movement within the Pentecostal and Charismatic church which emphasizes miracles and money above the cross. There are many aspects to the Word Faith movement, but they seem to all agree on one false teaching. ‘Jesus died spiritually’. According to most of the well known ‘prosperity gospel’ teachers, Jesus did not complete his work of redemption upon the cross. He took upon himself the nature of Satan. He went to hell and suffered there for three days in torment. Then Jesus was born again in hell. After that He defeated the devil and returned to the Father.

"Honey, hold on! Got something more for the garbage!"

 

[sveinen]

I have heard of the JESUS died spiritually doctrine but I don't really know much about it can anyone fill me in on this doctrine?
I know that the bible says that we are weak because of the flesh and I know that Paul said who shall deliver me from the body of this death.

God Is Spirit.
God Is.
Eternal God.
Christ Is The Bread That Comes down From Heaven.
we see in bible Christ Said He Was dead, BEHOLD HE IS ALIVE AGAIN FOREVER MORE.
look at Heavenly Matters! yo, schmeople don't cope with money, don't wander off into science! don't mess with words like that!
positive! live! The Cross!
LIVELY HE! ALIVE, HE!

 

[sveinen]

He Gave His Life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It feels like a bunch of lawyers-the discussion has devolved into "What is spiritual death..."

lol,, well one has to figure out what it is, before they can judge it. like is going on in here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agree with everything except the use of the word hell...Abraham and the believers were in paradise described as Abraham's bosom...the LOST were across the great gulf of division (which couldn't be crossed) cooking in hell.....Luke 16..

Sheol-->GRAVE and mistranslated as HELL by KING JIM translators.......

yes, abraham was in paradise.

the lost were in hades.

Hades will be delivered to God for final judgment, paradise is where we await our resurrection.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not even man's spirit dies a physical death. It lives in eternity separated from God. That folks, is what spiritual death is.

ah yes, the "second death" eternal separation from God (eternal death)

maybe you will finally realize what spiritual death is. but I doubt it.

it is not a spirit ceasing to exist. it is a spirit separated from God due to sin.

in adam all are dead (spiritually)

even so, in christ shall all (be given the possibility) to be made alive. spiritual death regenerated to spiritual life. born again.

 

[p_rehbein]

2nd Corinthians, Chapter 5:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]1[/h][/TD]
[TD]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]2[/h][/TD]
[TD]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]3[/h][/TD]
[TD]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]4[/h][/TD]
[TD]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]5[/h][/TD]
[TD]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]6[/h][/TD]
[TD]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]7[/h][/TD]
[TD](For we walk by faith, not by sight
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]8[/h][/TD]
[TD]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]9[/h][/TD]
[TD] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]10[/h][/TD]
[TD]For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]11[/h][/TD]
[TD]Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]12[/h][/TD]
[TD]For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]13[/h][/TD]
[TD]For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]14[/h][/TD]
[TD]For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]15[/h][/TD]
[TD]And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]16[/h][/TD]
[TD]Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]17[/h][/TD]
[TD] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]18[/h][/TD]
[TD]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]19[/h][/TD]
[TD]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]20[/h][/TD]
[TD]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]21[/h][/TD]
[TD]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[p_rehbein]

John, Chapter 10:

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]17
[/TD]
[TD]Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18
[/TD]
[TD]No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[GaryA]

To be 'dead' is to be "without life" - whatever the context.


Physical death - or, being physically dead - is [ "technically" ] defined by [ the lack of ] "the spirit within the body" :


James 2:

[SUP]26[/SUP] For as the body without the spirit is dead, ...


Physical death occurs when the spirit leaves the body.


Spiritual death - or, being spiritually dead - is [ "technically" ] defined by [ the lack of ] "the sealing of the Holy Spirit" :


Ephesians 1:

[SUP]13[/SUP] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14[/SUP] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:

[SUP]30[/SUP] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


If one is "sealed by the Holy Spirit", then they are spiritually alive; if one is not "sealed by the Holy Spirit", then they are spiritually dead.


One does not die spiritually ( in this life ); they are [ 'spiritually' ] "dead already"... :


John 3:

[SUP]18[/SUP] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

( In the context, it is talking about spiritual life / death -- the word 'condemned' here refers to a state of "having not obtained spiritual life" --- Being Spiritually Dead means "never having obtained Spiritual Life"... )


- until such a time as they believe and are 'born again'...


Being 'born again' means to be "born spiritually the first time" - not "born spiritually - again"...


John 3:

[SUP]1[/SUP] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: [SUP]2[/SUP] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. [SUP]3[/SUP] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [SUP]4[/SUP] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [SUP]5[/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [SUP]6[/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7[/SUP] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [SUP]8[/SUP] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Jesus tells Nicodemus that there is a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth.



Spiritual Death [ "technically" ] is not "separation from the Father" - but rather, "separation from the Holy Spirit"...

Jesus cannot die spiritually, because His soul and Spirit ( 'the Holy Spirit of God' ) cannot be separated - because He is God.


The separation from the Father that occurred when Jesus was on the cross was very real and was a very necessary part of His work of redemption; however, it does not constitute Spiritual Death.

At no point in time was the soul of Christ separated from His Spirit -- which does not even need to be "sealed by the Holy Spirit", because His Spirit IS the Holy Spirit.

 

[GaryA]

It feels like a bunch of lawyers-the discussion has devolved into "What is spiritual death..."

Exactly...

Just like many other threads on CC ( think 'rapture' [ and others ] ) --- until agreement about the definition of terms can be had, a good and beneficial discussion is pretty much impossible...

 

[GaryA]

There has never been a requirement for Jesus to be 'born again' -- for Him, it is moot -- His Spirit IS the source of all life - spiritual, physical, and otherwise...

 

[GaryA]

The difference between the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of a human being:

~ The spirit of a human being comes from the "breath of God" -- and is sufficient to sustain the physical life of the physical body; however, it must be "sealed by the Holy Spirit" to sustain spiritual life -- that is, the sealing of the human spirit by the Holy Spirit - gives spiritual life to that spirit.

~ The Spirit of Jesus IS the Holy Spirit - IS life itself - and needs not to be 'sealed'...

Without the Holy Spirit, there is no spiritual life.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Agree with everything except the use of the word hell...Abraham and the believers were in paradise described as Abraham's bosom...the LOST were across the great gulf of division (which couldn't be crossed) cooking in hell.....Luke 16..

Sheol-->GRAVE and mistranslated as HELL by KING JIM translators.......

I agree except the last line.
The Hebrew terms are:

queber: at the earth's surface a place for the dead to be buried. It is where the physical body rests. English "grave" and plural "graves".

Sheol in Greek is "hades", the English being Hell.

Sheol/hades/hell is in the heart of the earth.

Sheol is divided into two areas separated by a great gulf. Gehenna is the place of torment, while Paradise was used to hold the dead children of faith of Abraham and any other spirit+/- soul humans God reserved for eventual release. Only the Lord who created all that would have power to rule both places, able to cross any gulf not passable by people.

The Bible never says a person is buried in Sheol, but in a queber, which for the wicked is a gate leading to gehenna. It's interesting that Jacob wanted to go on down to Sheol to mourn the loss of Joseph, but they found the son before Jacob died. His grave is presumed to have led his spirit & soul to the Paradise section. He was buried in a queber (grave), probably reserved in Paradise below, but above Sheol's gehenna, now presumably one of those rising from his grave at Jesus' resurrection, walking around in Jerusalem reunited with glorified body, and now in Heaven.

I sure hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be 'dead' is to be "without life" - whatever the context.


Physical death - or, being physically dead - is [ "technically" ] defined by [ the lack of ] "the spirit within the body" :


James 2:

[SUP]26[/SUP] For as the body without the spirit is dead, ...


Physical death occurs when the spirit leaves the body.


Spiritual death - or, being spiritually dead - is [ "technically" ] defined by [ the lack of ] "the sealing of the Holy Spirit" :


Ephesians 1:

[SUP]13[/SUP] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14[/SUP] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:

[SUP]30[/SUP] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


If one is "sealed by the Holy Spirit", then they are spiritually alive; if one is not "sealed by the Holy Spirit", then they are spiritually dead.


One does not die spiritually ( in this life ); they are [ 'spiritually' ] "dead already"... :


John 3:

[SUP]18[/SUP] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

( In the context, it is talking about spiritual life / death -- the word 'condemned' here refers to a state of "having not obtained spiritual life" --- Being Spiritually Dead means "never having obtained Spiritual Life"... )


- until such a time as they believe and are 'born again'...


Being 'born again' means to be "born spiritually the first time" - not "born spiritually - again"...


John 3:

[SUP]1[/SUP] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: [SUP]2[/SUP] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. [SUP]3[/SUP] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [SUP]4[/SUP] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [SUP]5[/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [SUP]6[/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7[/SUP] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [SUP]8[/SUP] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Jesus tells Nicodemus that there is a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth.



Spiritual Death [ "technically" ] is not "separation from the Father" - but rather, "separation from the Holy Spirit"...

Jesus cannot die spiritually, because His soul and Spirit ( 'the Holy Spirit of God' ) cannot be separated - because He is God.


The separation from the Father that occurred when Jesus was on the cross was very real and was a very necessary part of His work of redemption; however, it does not constitute Spiritual Death.

At no point in time was the soul of Christ separated from His Spirit -- which does not even need to be "sealed by the Holy Spirit", because His Spirit IS the Holy Spirit.

God can not deal with sin.

thus the HS could not be in the body of Christ when sin was imputed to his person, the HS had to leave.

nice try, but even jesus acknawledged this.

My God (father) My God (spirit) why have you forsaken me.

ps. spiritual death can not mean the hs, otherwise all people in the OT will go to hell. because they died in a spiritually dead state.

also. adam was created spiritually alive, he did not have the HS, he hasd a relationship with god. when he sinned, he broke that relationship, and in relation to God HIS spirit died.

 

[phil112]

I said:

Originally Posted by phil112

Not even man's spirit dies a physical death. It lives in eternity separated from God. That folks, is what spiritual death is.

And you said:

ah yes, the "second death" eternal separation from God (eternal death)

maybe you will finally realize what spiritual death is. but I doubt it.

it is not a spirit ceasing to exist. it is a spirit separated from God due to sin.

in adam all are dead (spiritually)

even so, in christ shall all (be given the possibility) to be made alive. spiritual death regenerated to spiritual life. born again.

EG, have you changed meds or what? That is exactly what I said. Get a grip.

1. God can not deal with sin.

thus the HS could not be in the body of Christ when sin was imputed to his person, the HS had to leave......................................

2. My God (father) My God (spirit) why have you forsaken me.......................................

1. You don't know what impute means. it means to be charged with, to take responsibility for. Let's take a simple example. Let's say you walk into a store with your dad and steal something. Store manager calls the cops. Cops come and tell you you're going to jail. Your dad steps up and says no, leave him alone, I'm responsible for this theft and I will pay for it. That crime of stealing was imputed to your dad. He took responsibility for it. HE DIDN'T STEAL IT. Christ was never "made sin". Christ is pure as the driven snow. As our paschal lamb, he had to be spotless, without blemish. He didn't have to be "made sin" to pay for our sins. That is heresy, and blasphemous to think so.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. To think Christ was made sin is to think God a liar. He has never changed. NEVER!

2. Now you're adding to the word of God. God used in both places is the same word. You are putting in spirit where it never was. I don't need to tell you what happens to people that add and takeaway from His word do I?

 

[Butch5]

James spent many words pointing out our part in the spiritual world.
James 2:26 (KJV) [SUP]26 [/SUP] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[HR][/HR]James 4:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?


There are four spirits man has to do with. The spirit given him at creation, that which made man in the likeness of God.
That which is made alive, which is dead because of sin.
That which is of Satan, the spirit of rebellion which rules man while spiritually dead in sin.
That of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the spirit of Christ.

Hi WS,

If we look at Gen. 2:7 we find that God created man out of the dust of the ground. Whatever man is, he is the dust of the ground. There is a breath/spirit in man but it is not the man. Gen 2:7 says that God breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. It is this breath/spirit that comes from God that animates or gives life to man. However, that breath/spirit is God's not man's. Man is not a spirit, he is flesh and bone. Remember Jesus even said, a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I said: And you said:

EG, have you changed meds or what? That is exactly what I said. Get a grip.

Yes, but you placed it ONLY in context of the eternal death.

people alive today without christ are just as dead. this is the part your not seeing.


1. You don't know what impute means. it means to be charged with, to take responsibility for. Let's take a simple example. Let's say you walk into a store with your dad and steal something. Store manager calls the cops. Cops come and tell you you're going to jail. Your dad steps up and says no, leave him alone, I'm responsible for this theft and I will pay for it. That crime of stealing was imputed to your dad. He took responsibility for it. HE DIDN'T STEAL IT. Christ was never "made sin". Christ is pure as the driven snow. As our paschal lamb, he had to be spotless, without blemish. He didn't have to be "made sin" to pay for our sins. That is heresy, and blasphemous to think so.[/quote]

Actually, Yes I do. Impute means to charge to ones account (that is what the term literally means)
Your example has a flaw. My dad PAID THE PENALTY OF MY SIN, by PAYING THE DEBT I OWED.

My debt is spiritual death. thus for God to pay my debt, he had to pay my debt, which would be spiritual death.

If I owe 1000 dollars to a bank. My dad can not pay my debt without paying the 1000 dollars. If He goes to redeem me of that debt, he must pay the penalty, or he has not redeemed me at all. The debt it still mind, and I will suffer the consequences.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. To think Christ was made sin is to think God a liar. He has never changed. NEVER!

Yes he is.. And he paid the price of our sin debt (redemption) or we are still dead in our sin.

2. Now you're adding to the word of God. God used in both places is the same word. You are putting in spirit where it never was. I don't need to tell you what happens to people that add and takeaway from His word do I?

so was Jesus just talking to himself when he called out to God and asking them why they forsook him?

come now. this line of argument is quite foolish

 

[oldthennew]

what I like to see come across is fruit, the personal love one has for Jesus Christ
in their postings/conversations/learning/sharing.

I am very moved with the manners and respect and concern that many have shown,
it signifies the desire for 'unity in the Faith'.

I thank you for this, it is very encouraging.

we cannot deny that this thread has created a foundation for bearing Spiritual Fruit,
it has stimulated Spiritual thinking and a desire to 'find-out' the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH...."

 

[Butch5]

then how is a person dead, needing to be born again, when they are physically alive. What else could it be but spiritual death

A metaphor. When Paul says the Ephesians are dead in sin, he is using a metaphor. It's just like when he said, when the Law came I died, he didn't actually die, he used death as a metaphor for being under the condemnation of the Law.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
(Rom 7:8-11 KJV)

We don't really think that sin somehow attacked Paul and killed him, it's a metaphor. Paul uses death as a metaphor quite a bit'. He said without the Law was dead, sin isn't a living thing that can die, it's a metphor

Regarding being born again, it's actually a term for the Jews not the Gentiles. Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again to see the kingdom of God. That Jesus said that to Nicodemus suggests that Nicodemus thought that through birth one would enter into the kingdom of God. Well, that's actually what the Jews believed. God had made promises to Abraham and his seed. He promised to give the land to Abraham and his seed. The Jews believed that these promises were for them because they were the seed of Abraham, they believed they were the heirs of the promises through their birth from Abraham. However, Jesus corrects Nicodemus' misunderstanding that he was an heir through his birth by telling him he must be born again. His physical birth through Abraham is not sufficient to gain him access to the kingdom. He says that which is born of the flesh is flesh. Nicodemus needs another birth, and Jesus uses being born a second time as a metaphor for having faith and receiving the Holy Spirit. If you have access to computer Bible software do a search for the phrase "Born again" you'll find that every time the phrase is used the writer is speaking to Jews.