100 Percent Proof that there is No Rapture

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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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No. I am strongly against Antinomianism (i.e. abiding in unrepentant sin (such as murdering, hating, lying, lusting, etc.) with the thinking that you can still be saved). For not only is the Pre-Trib Rapture supported by lots of Scripture that others like to ignore, the Pre-Trib Rapture promotes Godliness, too.

#1. You won't be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture if you are not looking and if you are not living righteously (i.e. being ready with any oil in your lamp).

#2. Those who think they can sin and still be saved (Believers who are not ready) and those who are not looking for Him (Believers who deny what Scripture says about the Rapture) are all going to be very sorrowful when they miss out on the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are going to either fall away from the faith, or they are going to repent and re-examine everything they thought they knew about the Scriptures. In other words, those who think they can sin and still be saved will miss out on the Pre-Trib Rapture and will wonder why God did not take them. Those who believe the Lord is coming at an hour they say (Rather then at any moment), will also be very sorrowful that they could have believed what the Scriptures said (But chose to ignore them). For Jesus says, those who think the Lord delays His coming with that of an evil and lazy servant. Why? Because if the Lord delays His coming, then that means folks can slack off. So you have it backwards, my friend. For if Jesus can come at any moment, then one needs to be ever the more ready for Him.

For the Pre-Trib Rapture is the Marriage to the Lamb (See Parable of 10 Virgins in Matthew 25).
And the Second Rapture is the Lord's Return from the Wedding and the Gathering of those Guests unto the Marriage Supper (See Luke 12:36 and those passages on the Marriage Supper in Revelation).


Note: - The Marriage Supper is the saints fighting at Armageddon and not a meal in Heaven.
There is absolutely ZERO scriptural support for anything said in the above quotes. It is merely speculation and wishful thinking at best. At worst the above are repeated lies of Satan. Stay away from False Doctrine my friend or you will be led away by the wiles of the devil.

Paul gives us this command and sets forth these facts concerning the timing of the return of Christ.

2Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christhad come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Did you catch it? Concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... That Day WILL NOT COME UNLESS the FALLING AWAY COMES FIRST, and the MAN of Sin is Revealed. DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS!!!!

The Pre-Trib Rapture IS an ANY MEANS by which you have allowed yourself to be deceived. Since Satan comes first as the BIBLE TELLS US, and you think Christ comes first who will be deceived?? You need extra oil because Christ doesn't come back as quickly as you think. He comes after the Tribulation so get extra oil and have patience and faith.

FYI, Armageddon is AFTER the Tribulation too.
 

PlainWord

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Not only does the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine calls Paul a liar, it calls Christ a deceitful manipulator. Christ Himself is talking here and this passage deals specifically with signs of the end and of His Second Coming:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

If Christ told them ALL THINGS, why doesn't he tell them of His rapture return??? Did He forget? Did He Lie? Did He not know? Was it because His disciples were Jews and thus represented unbelievers even though they were the earliest believers and fathers of His Church as some suggest? None of these explanations make sense. One explanation makes sense, the Pre-Trib View is false. But Christ doesn't stop here, he repeats this message in John 15:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

ALL THINGS he has made known!!! So again I repeat. Some one show me a "red letter" passage where Christ Himself teaches a Pre-Trib timing for His return. The operative word is TIMING. Show us foolish and wicked post trib return sinners any passages that specifically locates any Return of Christ (including one where He doesn't touch ground) before the Tribulation.

The fact is my dear brothers and sisters, the Pre-Trib Doctrine is part of Satan's great deception which is coming. It is a doctrine that has crept in being taught originally by wolves in sheep's clothing. This doctrine not only defies scripture, it defies logic.

How on God's Green Earth would anyone believe Satan was Christ if Christ had already come a few years earlier and "Raptured" all the believers away? How could that possibly make sense?

Satan has to convince people that he (SATAN) is Christ by coming first. That is the only way he can fool people. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my passionate tones. I see the truth and what I see is millions of my brothers and sisters about to jump off a cliff thinking it's only a 2 foot drop when its a 1,000 foot drop. I love you all and hate to see any of you falling for this lie because Satan will deceive you if you believe Christ comes first.
 
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We must be using different Strongs;).

No, you are using the definition of two words, where the first word:
is not aer, and
its origin is aemi.

Now look up the single word aer.
It means "atmosphere, air."
 
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Here's a quick study of the different uses for Air.

Two words for "air" are used in the NT. Matthew, Mark and Luke use 3772 Ouranos, which means "sky" and by extension "heaven." Paul and John use "AER" which as I showed above is "to breathe unconsciously."

Here are the uses.
Thanks for all your trouble in the above two posts.

But those uses are not different, they all mean "atmosphere".
 
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I am mistaken about two words below.

Sorry for the confusion.

No, you are using the definition of two words, where the first word:
is not aer, and
its origin is aemi.

Now look up the single word aer.

It means "atmosphere, air."

Following is its meaning from Vines.





[/quote]
 
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This explains the confusion.

Note that the root of aer is aemi, but that does not necessarily mean that aer means the same thing as aemi.

In fact, many many words do not have the same meaning as the root from which they evolved.

The error being made in the meaning of
aer lies in assuming that aer (air)
means the same as its root
aemi (to breathe, respire, blow).

Aer evolved from aemi and does not mean the same as aemi.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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No, you are using the definition of two words, where the first word:
is not aer, and
its origin is aemi.

Now look up the single word aer.
It means "atmosphere, air."
This is the single word aer - 109.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I am mistaken about two words below.

Sorry for the confusion.


Following is its meaning from Vines.[/COLOR]


[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]

I'll stick with Strongs, but thanks. I don't think it matters very much which interpretation is correct. It is God who returns in the AER, not Christ. It is God returning in 1 Thes 4:14. It makes sense for Him to collect those alive and remaining at the end off of the planet just as it does for Him to collect those alive and remaining alive as that also agrees with 1 Cor 15. In either event, if people incorrectly identify which member of the Trinity is returning in 1 Thes 4 they might easily be falsely lead to believe that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture return of Christ.

1 Thes 4:13-18

DOES NOT EQUAL

Mat 24:29-31
 
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Elin said:
The above from you explains the confusion.

Note that the root of aer is aemi, but that does not necessarily mean that aer means the same thing as aemi.

In fact, many many words do not have the same meaning as the root from which they evolved.

The error being made in the meaning of
aer lies in assuming that aer (air)
means the same as its root
aemi (to breathe, respire, blow).

Aer evolved from aemi and does not mean the same as aemi.
I'll stick with Strongs, but thanks.
You are misreading Strong's, and are sticking with your misreading of it.

Examine the above.

The first meaning given is the meaning of the root aeme,
with a semi-colon separating it from the next meaning.

That next meaning is of aer, which meaning Strong gives to be "air" (as naturally circumambient): air.

You are taking the meaning of the first word, which is the root word (aeme)
to be the meaning of the second word, which evolved from that root (aer).

Strong, Vine, Young all agree that the meaning of aer is "atmosphere, air."

So, you really are not sticking with Strong's, as you think you are, my friend.
 
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There is absolutely ZERO scriptural support for anything said in the above quotes. It is merely speculation and wishful thinking at best. At worst the above are repeated lies of Satan. Stay away from False Doctrine my friend or you will be led away by the wiles of the devil.

Paul gives us this command and sets forth these facts concerning the timing of the return of Christ.

2Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christhad come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Did you catch it? Concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... That Day WILL NOT COME UNLESS the FALLING AWAY COMES FIRST, and the MAN of Sin is Revealed. DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MEANS!!!!

The Pre-Trib Rapture IS an ANY MEANS by which you have allowed yourself to be deceived. Since Satan comes first as the BIBLE TELLS US, and you think Christ comes first who will be deceived?? You need extra oil because Christ doesn't come back as quickly as you think. He comes after the Tribulation so get extra oil and have patience and faith.

FYI, Armageddon is AFTER the Tribulation too.
You act like I don't take the Olivet Discourse into account. As if I am ignoring it or as if it is talking about the 1st Rapture.

Uh, no.

The Olivet Discourse happens exactly during the time it is supposed to happen. During the End Times.

You fail to understand the distinction between the two Raptures because you do not understand the steps involved in the Marriage to our Lord. The first Rapture (Catching up) is shown Matthew 25. The virgins are called at an hour that they do not know. Those virgins who are preopared with enough oil in their lamps (i.e. righteous) are able to hear and enter into the Marriage. Luke 12:36 talks about how the Lord will RETURN from the Wedding (Marriage) and will open up the door for more guests to enter in. This is obviously the Second Rapture (Catching up) which lines up with the Olivet Discourse End Times events. Paul said he will shows us a mystery concerning the 1st Rapture. Meaning, it was not yet revealed until he spoken about it.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Since there are no passages where Christ Himself teaches of an earlier return (Pre-Trib) and since Christ stated twice that He has told us "ALL THINGS" the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine only exists because of 3 primary passages, one by Christ, one by Paul and one by John. If there are reasonable alternative interpretations for these three passages then the Pre-Trib Rapture should not be based on these passages because there is no dispute that the Pre-Trib view cannot stand on its own. Instead, it is based on conjecture and combining disconnected passages and incorrectly interpreting them.

1. John 14: [SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you[SUP].[/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Correct Interpretation: The Father's House is Heaven. The "mansions" or rooms are already built. Christ isn't going there to build them, he is merely stating the fact that they are there. When Christ states that he is going to prepare a place, He isn't talking about going to heaven to prepare that place as that place is already prepared. Again, the mansions are stated as already being there. Christ is talking about going to the Cross. This is where Christ must go to prepare the way to heaven as NOBODY who died before Christ was in heaven yet.

Christ then states that since He is going to the Cross, He will return again to receive us (those alive) unto Himself. When Christ returns He is no longer in heaven, He is here. So since He is here and gathers us to Him both Christ and those gathered remain here on earth. Nowhere does the above say that anyone living is being taken to heaven or that Christ returns to heaven once He gathers us. Those are assumptions and opinions - not fact.


[SUP]2. 1 Thes 4: 13 [/SUP]But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Correct Interpretation: Paul's use of personal and possessive pronouns is atrocious. It is often very difficult to know who Paul is referring to when He uses words such as: him, he, she, her, they, theirs, his, hers, we, us, ours, etc. The same is true when Paul uses the word "LORD." However, if you study Paul's use of the word, "Lord" you quickly see that most of the time when He uses it alone, He is speaking of God the Father. Usually when Paul is speaking of Jesus Christ he includes the word, "Jesus" or "Christ" with the word LORD or it is clear from the context which part of the Trinity Paul is discussing. There are three phrases highlighted and underlined in the above passage that make clear Paul is speaking of God the Father. Thus, everywhere He uses the word "LORD" in the above, it would be clearer if He used the word "GOD." In none of those cases should Jesus be used to replace "Lord." Once this is understood, then it is clear that this passage belongs historically at the end of time and not before the Great Tribulation. Without this passage being about Jesus' return, the Pre-Trib view totally collapses.

Rev 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Correct Interpretation: So many people stop at verse 10 and think that if one of the seven churches is kept from the "test" that this means they are taken to heaven. But if we read on we see that it is the new Jerusalem which is the new heaven which comes out of heaven from God. It is here that those who persevere will go and not to the current heaven that has been tainted by Satan's presence.

Many view the 7 churches as representing past churches or that each church represents a period of church history. Still others see the 7 churches as representing 7 denominations of today where only 1 gets raptured. All of these views are speculative. We do know that all 7 churches are located in Asia Minor which is modern day Turkey. There is significance to this location and thus significance to the warning letters as Turkey is the Seat of Satan and is where the Little Horn (Man of Sin, AKA Satan as a Man) which many call AntiChrist will come.

Many point to verse 10 as evidence of a Rapture. They equate "being kept" from something to being taken off the planet and flown alive to heaven. The verse does not say this but the leap is made by many again using other passages which they also misinterpret.

Conclusion: At the end of the day, there is no passage (alone or combined) that tells us of an earlier Pre-Trib Rapture return. There is no passage that tells us living people are flown to heaven to avoid the Tribulation. There is no passage that makes a distinction between a Saint and a Tribulation Era Saint - this is an invented term. There is no teaching of a great revival following a rapture which is the only way a Great Multitude of Believers could be killed during the Tribulation and seen in heaven. The "raptured" church cannot be found in heaven in any passage, only dead saints are found there. There is no passage that equates the Wrath of God with the Great Tribulation. There is no passage that reverses for the end times church the oft taught doctrine which states believers must endure persecution and death for the faith.

All passages which discuss the return of Christ and locate the timing tell of a Post Trib Return. Therefore the Pre-Trib Doctrine is false and is an invention of man and/or Satan. The Pre-Trib Doctrine conflicts with the Bible and calls Christ, Paul and John liars. This doctrine is dangerous, it is evil to its core and end time believers must reject it just as they must reject the Man of Sin (Satan) who comes first claiming to be Christ!!
 
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H

Hoffco

Guest
I agree...post tribulation, pre-wrath ingathering of the saints.....!
Hi dcontroversal. I was reading the first page, to get a feel for this thread, and came across this post of yours: I agree with the literal words of your post; But since I know your definition of TRIBULATION is wrong; I ready, disagree with your meaning. The dispensationalist meaning of Tribulation is wrong. I believe the "GREAT TRIBULATION" is over at the mid. point of The 70th wk. of Daniel. You believe the "GREAT TRIBULATION" is NOT over until the end of the 70th wk. of Daniel. I don't really want to try to prove this to you, because it really makes no difference ,as to who is right, because, all TRUE believers will go up, raptured, at the SAME time. SOO, I don't care to prove you wrong, because, WE all go at GOD'S timing. SOOO, "I agree...post tribulation, pre-wrath ingathering of the saints....!" Love to all, Hoffco
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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You are misreading Strong's, and are sticking with your misreading of it.

Examine the above.

The first meaning given is the meaning of the root aeme,
with a semi-colon separating it from the next meaning.

That next meaning is of aer, which meaning Strong gives to be "air" (as naturally circumambient): air.

You are taking the meaning of the first word, which is the root word (aeme)
to be the meaning of the second word, which evolved from that root (aer).

Strong, Vine, Young all agree that the meaning of aer is "atmosphere, air."

So, you really are not sticking with Strong's, as you think you are, my friend.
Let's say dear sister that you are correct and I concede the point. We are "raptured" to the low, heavy air, atmosphere. I have no problem with that as we need to be off a planet which will be dissolved with fervent heat.

Will you concede that the member of the Trinity discussed in 1 Thes 4:14 is God the Father and that this passage belongs at the end of time?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Let's say dear sister that you are correct and I concede the point. We are "raptured" to the low, heavy air, atmosphere. I have no problem with that as we need to be off a planet which will be dissolved with fervent heat.
We just keep agreein' and agreein', my friend. . .:)

Yes, the low heavy atmosphere is precisely it.

Will you concede that the member of the Trinity discussed in 1 Thes 4:14 is God the Father and that
this passage belongs at the end of time?
I don't think I've ever commented on that.

Yes, I understand this to refer to the second coming of Christ at end of time.

However, it looks to me like the text is stating that God, who "placed all things under Jesus' feet
and appointed him to be head over everything for the church" (Eph 1:22),
is the one sending, with Jesus, the believers (church) who have died.
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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You act like I don't take the Olivet Discourse into account. As if I am ignoring it or as if it is talking about the 1st Rapture.

Uh, no.

The Olivet Discourse happens exactly during the time it is supposed to happen. During the End Times.

You fail to understand the distinction between the two Raptures because you do not understand the steps involved in the Marriage to our Lord. The first Rapture (Catching up) is shown Matthew 25. The virgins are called at an hour that they do not know. Those virgins who are preopared with enough oil in their lamps (i.e. righteous) are able to hear and enter into the Marriage. Luke 12:36 talks about how the Lord will RETURN from the Wedding (Marriage) and will open up the door for more guests to enter in. This is obviously the Second Rapture (Catching up) which lines up with the Olivet Discourse End Times events. Paul said he will shows us a mystery concerning the 1st Rapture. Meaning, it was not yet revealed until he spoken about it.
This is exactly what I am talking about. You (and plenty others) use your logic and interpretations to place in the Bible events that are not there. Nothing in Mat 25 or Luke 12 tell us that the Lord comes before the Tribulation. It is not a mystery that Paul revealed either.

Paul revealed mysteries, but not a Pre-Trib rapture additional/earlier return. Paul states clearly that Concerning the Coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him that that day will not come unless... The Man of Sin is revealed. Paul goes on to tell us not to be deceived by ANY MEANS.

The Pre-Trib Rapture return is an ANY MEANS PAUL specifically tells you by which not to be deceived. Yet, you remain deceived. You choose to ignore passages you don't like. You choose to believe in an event not told by piecing together passages none of which teach the most important parts of your belief.

The passages you cite from Mat 25 and Luke 12 could just as easily apply to a Post Trib Return. The whole idea of waiting and having enough oil bolster a later return. The Master being at a wedding is a parable. The Master clearly is not at THE WEDDING because if he was, the servant wasn't invited.

It frustrates me to see good believers so willingly accept false doctrines. Those who most loudly promote the Pre-Trib view are the ones who most pridefully claim to have the soundest of doctrines. They criticize others while they themselves alter and twist scripture and teach as sound things that are anything but sound. The Pre Trib Rapture is a theory. It is not rooted in fact as the only timing ever given is AFTER the Tribulation.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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We just keep agreein' and agreein', my friend. . .:)

Yes, the low heavy atmosphere is precisely it.


I don't think I've ever commented on that.

Yes, I understand this to refer to the second coming of Christ at end of time.

However, it looks to me like the text is stating that God, who "placed all things under Jesus' feet
and appointed him to be head over everything for the church" (Eph 1:22),
is the one sending, with Jesus, the believers (church) who have died.
I'm glad we are making progress. I hope you see that I am not afraid to alter my view if the evidence is there to suggest I am wrong about something. It is not an easy thing for any of us to do.

Not sending sister, bringing. Read it again.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

God will bring, not send with Jesus. God will bring those who sleep in Jesus. This is what the verse says. It is God doing the "bringing" here. This is a very important distinction!!! If 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ then the Pre-Trib theory is shattered.
 
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Elin said:
We just keep agreein' and agreein', my friend. . .:)

Yes, the low heavy atmosphere is precisely what aer is.

I don't think I've ever commented on 1Th 4:14.

Yes, I understand 1Th 4:14 to refer to the second coming of Christ at end of time.

However, it looks to me like the text is stating that
God, who "placed all things under Jesus' feet
and appointed him to be head over everything for the church" (Eph 1:22),
is the one sending, with Jesus, the believers (church) who have died.
I'm glad we are making progress. I hope you see that
I am not afraid to alter my view if the evidence is there
to suggest I am wrong about something. It is not an easy thing for any of us to do.

Not sending sister, bringing. Read it again.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

God will bring, not send with Jesus. God will bring those who sleep in Jesus. This is what the verse says. It is God doing the "bringing" here. This is a very important distinction!!! If 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ then the Pre-Trib theory is shattered.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I concede that God the Father will come with Jesus.

"God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

However, God the Father is invisible, has no body. . .so we won't see him.

While all three will be where Jesus is, the only part of the Trinity we will see at the second coming is Jesus.

It's kind of a moot issue, isn't it?
 
E

ELECT

Guest
I'm glad we are making progress. I hope you see that I am not afraid to alter my view if the evidence is there to suggest I am wrong about something. It is not an easy thing for any of us to do.

Not sending sister, bringing. Read it again.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

God will bring, not send with Jesus. God will bring those who sleep in Jesus. This is what the verse says. It is God doing the "bringing" here. This is a very important distinction!!! If 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ then the Pre-Trib theory is shattered.
Where will they brought ?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Thanks for pointing that out.
I concede that God the Father will come with Jesus.

"God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

However, God the Father is invisible, has no body. . .so we won't see him.

While all three will be where Jesus is, the only part of the Trinity we will see at the second coming is Jesus.

It's kind of a moot issue, isn't it?
The text does not say that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. The text says, "God will bring with Him (GOD) those who sleep in Jesus." Jesus is NOT coming with God. The text does not say that they come together. The return of Christ and the Return of God are separate events. The point is not moot, it is a very important distinction.

Once we die, we are with the Lord God and will always be with Him while in spiritual form. Paul's use of the word, "Lord" below is GOD the Father and not Jesus because Paul does not include Jesus with the word "Lord."

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... "So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Thus, if we are dead, we are with God. If there are two returns, one of Christ and one of the Father and if they are distinct and separate returns, is there then not room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ which you deny? Also, if 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ and is instead discussing the return of God, does that not completely destroy the Pre-Trib doctrine?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Where will they brought ?
Great question!!! Here's your answer.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

The above is the same as the below from 2 Pet 3:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The above two passages are the same as the below:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord (GOD) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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