THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[ISeeYou]

I love the way these are worded in these things, you can see the principals throughout

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

Now here it says,

It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

From the above (snipped)

The law of the LORD is perfect,

The law made nothing perfect,

But the bringing in of a better hope did;

by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to *bring us* unto Christ,

that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes amazing how the OLD Testament Law teaches the law!

 

[passinthru]

Yes when we commit sin knowingly we will confess these sins. The word says we are not to be ignorant to the devices used to by the enemy. Deception can only be deception if it is a lie and a truth mixed. These deceptions can come from good meaning people. One huge deception that has caused many to walk away from the truth is that of some wanting to add works to salvation. I was going to say " sorry don't want to offend anyone" but the Holy Spirit checked me on that real quick! The word is quick and powerfull and divides the soul and the sprit. It can also be offensive to those who are deceived. LOOK UNTO JESUS THE ARTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH!! It is Finished saith God. The price as paid in full and let no man add to it ..... The wisdom of men is foolishness with God.
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?[SUP]2[/SUP] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3[/SUP] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4[/SUP] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5[/SUP] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]6[/SUP] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[SUP]7[/SUP] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[Mitspa]

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[Mitspa]

I know that its hard for some to understand that God has justified us...they need confession for their own conscience ...but God is not imputing sin to those He has justified by faith in His Son....you cannot be justified one min and then a sinner under law the next...that's silly!

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Those who say they still can not keep and follow the 10 Commandments, put restrictions and limitations on God, and are not showing love to the Lord our God. As the first and greatest commandment declares........

 

[passinthru]

[SUP]1[/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


[SUP]2[/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
.................................................

[TABLE="class: tablestyle, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][h=1]1 John Chapter 1[/h][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Next >> [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Viewing the Standard King James Version. Switch to the 1611 KJV 1 John Chapter 1 or view a 1 John 1 parallel comparison.


[SUP]1[/SUP] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[SUP]2[/SUP] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
[SUP]3[/SUP] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4[/SUP] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[SUP]5[/SUP] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[SUP]6[/SUP] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[SUP]7[/SUP] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[SUP]8[/SUP] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9[/SUP] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10[/SUP] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

As the Holy Spirit tells us we have sinned we are to confess these sins. We may rebel or we may not. If we are saved and if do not it will affect us from walking the walk God desires us to walk to it's full degree. Will it be a loss of eternal life? No but it can create a hell on earth.

 

[ISeeYou]

Yes amazing how the OLD Testament Law teaches the law!

Im not sure if you were speaking to me or not, I couldnt tell.

In Gal 4:21 Paul is speaking to those who desire to be under the law, and he asks them this,

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Lets hear the law then...

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is , and is in bondage with her children.

Thats where he starts,

How do I know which one someone else is talking about though? Like if you would say, the same teaches the law. Because I'll think of what he says here (in brief)

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham

Where ofcourse is a testimony of the two women that are two covenants (which things are an allegory) etc

 

[passinthru]

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

I spoke at a church this morning and a man who was somewhat rough around the edges accepted Christ. He will get baptized in water at some point. But for you to say that this man is destined to hell if he passes away before he is Baptised is heresy.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

I spoke at a church this morning and a man who was somewhat rough around the edges accepted Christ. He will get baptized in water at some point. But for you to say that this man is destined to hell if he passes away before he is Baptised is heresy.

These legalist cant rejoice in any good work...but like the Pharisees would rather see someone suffer as to be healed....they know nothing of Gods Law to love!

 

[Mitspa]

Im not sure if you were speaking to me or not, I couldnt tell.

In Gal 4:21 Paul is speaking to those who desire to be under the law, and he asks them this,

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Lets hear the law then...

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is , and is in bondage with her children.

Thats where he starts,

How do I know which one someone else is talking about though? Like if you would say, the same teaches the law. Because I'll think of what he says here (in brief)

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham

Where ofcourse is a testimony of the two women that are two covenants (which things are an allegory) etc

Ok ...its kinda hard to see the points of your post....maybe change your commentary some from the scriptures and folks can better understand the point you make with the scripture you use....But yes those who desire to be under the law...never really hear what the law demands.

 

[passinthru]

Those who's eyes are blinded by religious pride are more difficult for God to minister to than those who have never heard of Jesus. Part truth and part lie = deception. When sins related to pride are called out deaf ears area commonly seen. I have seen this in many churches but have also seen where the Holy Spirit has intervened when Jesus was lifted up and miraculous things happened. The word tells us that signs are for the unbeliever.
But brothers and sisters God is bigger than this and the truth will prevail in many hearts. We are all in a battle in which much is within the closed walls of what we know of as the church. Let God be true and every man be a liar.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

I spoke at a church this morning and a man who was somewhat rough around the edges accepted Christ. He will get baptized in water at some point. But for you to say that this man is destined to hell if he passes away before he is Baptised is heresy.

I did not say what you just said, as I leave all death and life situations up to the Lord. And if the Lord decides to have mercy on that person which I think He will, as what was shown by the thief on the cross.

But at the same time, to be born again is through baptism. And the Lord is the one who said if you are not born again you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, not me. So you can take that up to Him in prayer, for He is the one who said no born again person will enter the kingdom of heaven. Born again is done through baptism, as both Peter and Paul show.
When you are immersed in water you are buried into His death, and then you are raised into the Spirit as a symbol of His resurrection. Then you are given remission of sins, if the person is not given the chance to be baptized before they die I believe the Lord will have mercy on them. But if a person has plenty of time to get baptized, and they still refuse to do it then they are violating a direct command from the Lord.


[h=1]1 Peter 3:20-21[/h]20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[ISeeYou]

Ok ...its kinda hard to see the points of your post....maybe change your commentary some from the scriptures and folks can better understand the point you make with the scripture you use....But yes those who desire to be under the law...never really hear what the law demands.

I dont understand what is unclear in the prior post, I wasnt sure if your reponse behind the other was directed at me is all.

On this other (my second post) I just posted Pauls words Gal 4:21-24 pointing out that when he speaks of hearing the law he starts at hearing what is written in Abraham (and the two women).

 

[ELECT]

Those who's eyes are blinded by religious pride are more difficult for God to minister to than those who have never heard of Jesus. Part truth and part lie = deception. When sins related to pride are called out deaf ears area commonly seen. I have seen this in many churches but have also seen where the Holy Spirit has intervened when Jesus was lifted up and miraculous things happened. The word tells us that signs are for the unbeliever.
But brothers and sisters God is bigger than this and the truth will prevail in many hearts. We are all in a battle in which much is within the closed walls of what we know of as the church. Let God be true and every man be a liar.

the whole world wondered after the beast interesting the majority of Chritians worship on sunday

 

[passinthru]

I did not say what you just said, as I leave all death and life situations up to the Lord. And if the Lord decides to have mercy on that person which I think He will, as what was shown by the thief on the cross.

But at the same time, to be born again is through baptism. And the Lord is the one who said if you are not born again you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, not me. So you can take that up to Him in prayer, for He is the one who said no born again person will enter the kingdom of heaven. Born again is done through baptism, as both Peter and Paul show.
When you are immersed in water you are buried into His death, and then you are raised into the Spirit as a symbol of His resurrection. Then you are given remission of sins, if the person is not given the chance to be baptized before they die I believe the Lord will have mercy on them. But if a person has plenty of time to get baptized, and they still refuse to do it then they are violating a direct command from the Lord.


1 Peter 3:20-21

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

WATER Baptism is a precious thing. Recently a water baptism was taking place and a man who no one knew came over off the street and asked to be baptized. Praise God! A few years ago during a prison ministry meeting we baptized 30 plus inmates. Praise God. But for anyone to say that someone is not eligible through the blood of Jesus to be with the one who they just accepted as savior for eternity is heresy! I did mention it earlier, my brother,that when one accepts Christ sincerely into their life they are at that moment technically baptized into Christ. I trust that you , who I feel has a sincere desire to please God, will trust God to show you that adding to God's plan by a work is heresy. This is a sin that should be confessed and turned away from. Please do not harden your heart to this.

You just wrote in post 2573 :
"I did not say what you just said, as I leave all death and life situations up to the Lord. And if the Lord decides to have mercy on that person which I think He will, as what was shown by the thief on the cross."


1 Corinthians 14:33 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

James 3:16 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

 

[Mitspa]

1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

Baptism is a antitype of salvation....its the answer of a good conscience ...its the gospel that saves!

 

[Mitspa]

I dont understand what is unclear in the prior post, I wasnt sure if your reponse behind the other was directed at me is all.

On this other (my second post) I just posted Pauls words Gal 4:21-24 pointing out that when he speaks of hearing the law he starts at hearing what is written in Abraham (and the two women).

Well generally when this debates takes place ...some come on and post a lot of scripture from the Old Testament that proclaims the law of Moses at attempt to use the law to support the teaching of the law...Like Psalms 119.... I always like to make the point that the OLD testament is always going to teach the Law of Moses...

 

[passinthru]

the whole world wondered after the beast interesting the majority of Chritians worship on sunday

John 4:24 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 9:16 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Colossians 2:16 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

 

[Mitspa]

the whole world wondered after the beast interesting the majority of Chritians worship on sunday

LOL ..your a SDA? I should have guessed.... When is the end of time? What does Ellen G white say?