OSAS true or false?
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We are all born into sin as written in Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." And the Lord also said the imagination of a mans heart is evil from his youth, so we are all first born with that sin nature through the flesh.
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Death proves this to be true.
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Death proves this to be true.
I am favored of God because He chose to exercise grace toward me for believing the gospel.
Noah found God's grace for obeying God. That grace, wonderful favor above all people on earth, allowed Noah and his family to survive in the Ark.
All people have the same grace offered from God, the invitation to be in Christ by faith to be saved. Not all those people answer the door when the messenger of the grace plan, the end of which is faith in Christ by words of the gospel, knocks on each door (of the heart).
I am saved because God first loved me a sinner by letting me hear that gospel, and received enough faith from God to believe it.
Grace was God's plan before Adam was. That same grace has been offered all along, but few found it.
Without mentioning grace we have this simple manner of salvation.
Romans 10:8-17 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Noah found God's grace for obeying God. That grace, wonderful favor above all people on earth, allowed Noah and his family to survive in the Ark.
All people have the same grace offered from God, the invitation to be in Christ by faith to be saved. Not all those people answer the door when the messenger of the grace plan, the end of which is faith in Christ by words of the gospel, knocks on each door (of the heart).
I am saved because God first loved me a sinner by letting me hear that gospel, and received enough faith from God to believe it.
Grace was God's plan before Adam was. That same grace has been offered all along, but few found it.
Without mentioning grace we have this simple manner of salvation.
Romans 10:8-17 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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Exactly. Many times the same scripture is used to make both points.
Instead of "improper reasoning" may I put forth a new terminology: ("Father, I put this forth with a humble, obedient, and thankful heart as evidence of your Power and Glory. If it is not of you, let it be remembered no more. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.")
Individual Spiritual Comprehension- God allowing his Word to be comprehended differently by individuals to best benefit them in their walk with him.
Instead of "improper reasoning" may I put forth a new terminology: ("Father, I put this forth with a humble, obedient, and thankful heart as evidence of your Power and Glory. If it is not of you, let it be remembered no more. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.")
Individual Spiritual Comprehension- God allowing his Word to be comprehended differently by individuals to best benefit them in their walk with him.
I don't know of any scripture that gives a specific age. Growing up I always heard from adult believers that it's around 12 years of age. They used the scripture of Jesus in the temple at age 12 for a baseline, with the understanding that the age could vary with each child as to when they came to know right from wrong.
The Boy Jesus at the Temple
Luke 2:41-47 New International Version (NIV)
Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.
The Boy Jesus at the Temple
Luke 2:41-47 New International Version (NIV)
Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.
You have to study the Bible to understand the question you ask. But overall it is as simple as this:
The devil comes at the sixth trump, CHRIST returns at the Seventh Trump. When the devil gets here, he will pretend to be CHRIST. If for any reason, you follow the devil (for example believing he is CHRIST come to rapture you out of here), then you won't make the first resurrection. Since you didn't know Truth, you at least get your chance in the Millennium. But beware, the Millennium is a tough Iron Rod discipline road to go. And as far as what GOD thinks about those that don't care about Truth, here is what HE says (and where HE says having pleasure in unrighteousness, how much more unrighteous can you get than worshiping satan).
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The devil comes at the sixth trump, CHRIST returns at the Seventh Trump. When the devil gets here, he will pretend to be CHRIST. If for any reason, you follow the devil (for example believing he is CHRIST come to rapture you out of here), then you won't make the first resurrection. Since you didn't know Truth, you at least get your chance in the Millennium. But beware, the Millennium is a tough Iron Rod discipline road to go. And as far as what GOD thinks about those that don't care about Truth, here is what HE says (and where HE says having pleasure in unrighteousness, how much more unrighteous can you get than worshiping satan).
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Yeah, and that should make people realize. If there is no error in the Scriptures and people are using the same Scriptures to teach opposing doctrines it should be evident that at least one side is wrong. However, rather than getting to the root of the problem, reasoning, the debate just continues. Even after erroneous reasoning is pointed out people still continue with the same line of argumentation. It doesn't seem to me that one is seeking the truth while knowingly using improper reasoning.
K
1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
So you teach that a baby who dies in the first year of life is condemned? Does not the God of grace and mercy have pity on such a one who is incapable of volition to sin?
All men are born with a sin nature but at what point does that nature assert itself and sin achieve Spiritual death?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
All men are born with a sin nature but at what point does that nature assert itself and sin achieve Spiritual death?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The devil was cast out long ago, when Jesus said he was, study more. I have a study on the book of Revelation if you want to know the truth www.therevelationofjc.com
Isayah 11:1-10, "There will come forth a Rod out of the stem of Yishai, and a Branch will grow out of his roots. The Spirit of Yahweh will rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverence of Yahweh; Which will make Him of quick understanding, and His delight will be in the reverence of Yahweh. He will not judge after the sight of His eyes, nor will He reprove after the hearing of His ears; But with righteousness will He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek, of the earth. He will smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips will He slay the wicked*. Righteousness will be the belt of His waist, and faithfulness the belt of His loins. The wolf also will dwell with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow and the bear will graze; their young ones will lie down together; and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the asp, and the weaned child will put his hand in the viper's den. They will not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be as full of the knowledge of Yahweh as the waters that cover the sea. In that day there will be a Root of Yishai, Who will stand as an ensign, for the people; to it will the Gentiles seek, and His rest will be glorious."
Revelation 19:13-15:, "And He was wrapped in a tallit dipped in blood, and the Name of Him is called: Yahshua--The Salvation of Yahweh. And the armies in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him upon white horses, And *out of His mouth goes a sharp, two-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations; and He will rule over them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh."
Revelation 19:13-15:, "And He was wrapped in a tallit dipped in blood, and the Name of Him is called: Yahshua--The Salvation of Yahweh. And the armies in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him upon white horses, And *out of His mouth goes a sharp, two-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations; and He will rule over them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh."
Howso? Jesus has the words of salvation, so tell me how a man who abides not in the doctrine of Christ (and is as a branch cast forth) and taken away by the Father as one who has God?
Even as John said,
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
Theres another part of that verse I had not posted also you can read.
I just dont see Jesus chasing down the broken branches Jesus said, the Father taketh away.
However, I do see where broken off branches have men gather them who cast them into the fire to be burned
I dont see salvation outside of Jesus Christ, but by Jesus Christ.
And so I dont believe that if someone departs from Jesus Christ whether by not abiding in him or his doctrine are saved no. You might, God by Moses and Jesus Christ alike both spoke of the one who rejects him or his words. Jesus shows these particular branches as the very ones the Father takes away. Not being of those which remain (the fruitful) and which are pruned (or chastised) that they might bear even more fruit. Rather, I might see them more then likely as those without chatisement (or further pruning).
It does speak of trees without fruit twice dead, whose end it is to be burned, just as it speaks of branches which abide not in the vine, as Jesus said, a branch cannot bear fruit of itself (which is also another way we can know, even by their fruits (or their lack thereof) where these are abiding (or not). Both must become manifest as the children of God and the devil are manifest. And so these branches which have departed (from the Lord in their heart) do very much seem to added to the fruitless branch pile only to be hauled off by the Father in that picture.
This isnt a picture of salvation no.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
I mean it sounds like
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers (which is not fruit) is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Next verse
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
He is speaking of these things in relation to their salvation and although persuaded of better things (verses this other) when he speaks of the same its in relation to their salvation.
Even as John said,
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
Theres another part of that verse I had not posted also you can read.
I just dont see Jesus chasing down the broken branches Jesus said, the Father taketh away.
However, I do see where broken off branches have men gather them who cast them into the fire to be burned
I dont see salvation outside of Jesus Christ, but by Jesus Christ.
And so I dont believe that if someone departs from Jesus Christ whether by not abiding in him or his doctrine are saved no. You might, God by Moses and Jesus Christ alike both spoke of the one who rejects him or his words. Jesus shows these particular branches as the very ones the Father takes away. Not being of those which remain (the fruitful) and which are pruned (or chastised) that they might bear even more fruit. Rather, I might see them more then likely as those without chatisement (or further pruning).
It does speak of trees without fruit twice dead, whose end it is to be burned, just as it speaks of branches which abide not in the vine, as Jesus said, a branch cannot bear fruit of itself (which is also another way we can know, even by their fruits (or their lack thereof) where these are abiding (or not). Both must become manifest as the children of God and the devil are manifest. And so these branches which have departed (from the Lord in their heart) do very much seem to added to the fruitless branch pile only to be hauled off by the Father in that picture.
This isnt a picture of salvation no.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
I mean it sounds like
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers (which is not fruit) is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Next verse
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
He is speaking of these things in relation to their salvation and although persuaded of better things (verses this other) when he speaks of the same its in relation to their salvation.