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The problem with the Reformation is that theologians were trying to reform a religious system that had gotten so off kilter, the only way to make it biblical would be to completely destroy it and start again. And that didn't happen, did it?
With that said, I don't think there is ANY denomination that has it all completely right. But that's okay as long as that denomination does not interfere with your own personal holiness.
The point is: we need to continually be going back to the Bible and using that as our definitive answer.
With that said, I don't think there is ANY denomination that has it all completely right. But that's okay as long as that denomination does not interfere with your own personal holiness.
The point is: we need to continually be going back to the Bible and using that as our definitive answer.
the question you need to ask, is it a personal religion you seek, or a personal relationship with god through jesus christ.
is he asking religion to ask seek and knock, or you as in a personal walk with god.
Ask, and It Will Be Given
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!Matthew 7
is he asking religion to ask seek and knock, or you as in a personal walk with god.
Ask, and It Will Be Given
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!Matthew 7
That pretty much covers it for me. There is no one truth about living out your life... or operating a church. There is only one truth, and that is simply in whom you believe. The rest are usually just opinions and interpretations.
If you are trying to fit into a slot ANYONE has fabricated, you are never going to be satisfied. Jesus never instituted "cookie cutter" religion. He never wanted us to, either... but some of us still try.
In answer to your OP question............. I think you will find what you feel the need to call "real" Christians will probably just remaining sitting when that question is asked.
This put me in mind of the old saying, "You can be pretty sure that the man who tells you he wears the pants in the family, usually doesn't."
If you are trying to fit into a slot ANYONE has fabricated, you are never going to be satisfied. Jesus never instituted "cookie cutter" religion. He never wanted us to, either... but some of us still try.
In answer to your OP question............. I think you will find what you feel the need to call "real" Christians will probably just remaining sitting when that question is asked.
This put me in mind of the old saying, "You can be pretty sure that the man who tells you he wears the pants in the family, usually doesn't."
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Would you be able to identify the real Christians who would stand from the pretenders? Frankly the only way to know them is to be one of them. To be one of them requires a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ. Not just a corporate knowledge but a personal knowledge stemming from meeting Christ at the foot of His cross. From placing ones personal sins in the hands of the Savior. It requires one to be baptized in the cleansing fire of the Holy Spirit and receiving the new life that Jesus has promised to those who believe.
Fact of the matter being that those who shout the loudest are generally the ones who are most distant from Christ and who walk in the darkness of their own righteousness.
As the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirits that we are His so His Spirit gives us fellowship with those of like precious faith. Those who love the Lord Jesus do not eschew doctrine. The only unity they seek is unity with Christ.
It is lonely in the darkness of sin. There is fellowship in the light of the righteousness of Christ. The two can never mingle together.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Fact of the matter being that those who shout the loudest are generally the ones who are most distant from Christ and who walk in the darkness of their own righteousness.
As the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirits that we are His so His Spirit gives us fellowship with those of like precious faith. Those who love the Lord Jesus do not eschew doctrine. The only unity they seek is unity with Christ.
It is lonely in the darkness of sin. There is fellowship in the light of the righteousness of Christ. The two can never mingle together.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
See that's your problem in my opinion, you are looking to men to find out "what a true Christian as defined by this forum is supposed to believe", and that is something you should be praying about and going to the Holy Spirit to learn. You also act as if the Catholic church is just one big happy united body when that is just plain silly. There are so many offshoots and breakoffs in the Catholic church it's not funny, and when you get right down to it every "protestant" church you bash was a result of a split from the "united body". See that's where I see you have it wrong, you identify yourself by the RCC label, and we are to follow Jesus not men, period. The reason you can't make sense of any of this is because the Holy Spirit hasn't regenerated you lifting the veil. If you want to know how I came to salvation and what I feel the POWER of Christ is in my life here is a very clear explanation. I sat in church for years calling myself Christian before I ever came to Truth, My testimony to Gods glory in my life. It's long but worth a read. This shows it wasn’t my church, the RCC, or any man made anything that saved me, It was Jesus Christ Himself that picked me back up making me a whole New Creature. By the way He saved me, I did NOTHING to deserve His salvation. (last few lines had a little too much "me" and "i" in it)
I do agree about all the bickering back and forth though, it is fruitless, I personally would like to see a lot more questions and a lot less assertions to be honest. I see people getting down right venomous arguing points that I feel are just different ways of looking at the same thing, yet no one is willing to drop guard or pride long enough to see that. I guess my main point is I feel putting all your hope or understanding in men is dangerous, no matter if it’s the pope or the people on this forum men don’t save us Jesus does. Well that’s how I’ve been lead to see it at this point anyway, but I still wish you well in your walk with the Lord, and may He pour all understanding and peace on you and your family.
I do agree about all the bickering back and forth though, it is fruitless, I personally would like to see a lot more questions and a lot less assertions to be honest. I see people getting down right venomous arguing points that I feel are just different ways of looking at the same thing, yet no one is willing to drop guard or pride long enough to see that. I guess my main point is I feel putting all your hope or understanding in men is dangerous, no matter if it’s the pope or the people on this forum men don’t save us Jesus does. Well that’s how I’ve been lead to see it at this point anyway, but I still wish you well in your walk with the Lord, and may He pour all understanding and peace on you and your family.
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"... Let God be found true, but every man a liar;...." Romans 3:4
you are looking for something that does not exist: a "true" christian, only God is true as St Paul explains. As Jesus said: "why do you call me good, only God is good."
We are incapable of reaching perfection in this body of flesh and in this world, We are all flawed even thoughs of us who call ourselves christians. Our imperfections are manifested by our lack of unity in love, our bickering and divisions is evidence that we are not abiding in truth.
Thank God we have a God who is merciful and long suffering, and forgives us our sins, not for our sakes does he forgive us, but for his name's sake are we forgiven.
May God have mercy on all our souls in Jesus Christ our Lord.
you are looking for something that does not exist: a "true" christian, only God is true as St Paul explains. As Jesus said: "why do you call me good, only God is good."
We are incapable of reaching perfection in this body of flesh and in this world, We are all flawed even thoughs of us who call ourselves christians. Our imperfections are manifested by our lack of unity in love, our bickering and divisions is evidence that we are not abiding in truth.
Thank God we have a God who is merciful and long suffering, and forgives us our sins, not for our sakes does he forgive us, but for his name's sake are we forgiven.
May God have mercy on all our souls in Jesus Christ our Lord.
J
Here are some of God's established meanings of "liar":
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:4)
There are MANY here, Mike, who not only don't keep His commandments, but also insist that we don't need to keep His commandments and all such are LIARS.
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (I John 2:22)
There are MANY here, Mike, who deny that Jesus is the Christ and all such are LIARS.
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (I John 4:20)
There are MANY here, Mike, who insist that they love God, yet they hate their brother and all such are LIARS.
Anyhow, I hope that you do return to this forum somewhere down the road. If not, then, again, I wish you the best both in this life and beyond.
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:4)
There are MANY here, Mike, who not only don't keep His commandments, but also insist that we don't need to keep His commandments and all such are LIARS.
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (I John 2:22)
There are MANY here, Mike, who deny that Jesus is the Christ and all such are LIARS.
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (I John 4:20)
There are MANY here, Mike, who insist that they love God, yet they hate their brother and all such are LIARS.
Anyhow, I hope that you do return to this forum somewhere down the road. If not, then, again, I wish you the best both in this life and beyond.
My faith is based solely on my relationship with the living Saviour and God, Jesus Christ.
I chose to covenant with other believers that interpret Scripture the way the Holy Spirit has led me. That doesn't mean others aren't saved, or don't love Jesus. It just means that in this big world of people who worship Jesus, there are many ways to help and serve one another within the local body of Christ.
I come here to learn and to teach. I hope to comfort others and to be comforted. My heart is to encourage and to be encouraged.
And just so you know, the BDF is not the only forum in CC. Spend some time praying for those who post needs in the prayer forum, or help those in the Family Forum who are crying out because of hurt. Hang around the Music Forum or the News Forum and learn what others are thinking.
As for the RCC, it is NOT a local body of believers. It is a megalith of mixed up history and tradition, which has strayed terribly far from the Bible and the grace of God. BUT, I know there are believers, seeking God, and I pray that one day they can come out from that institution, and find fellowship with other believers in Jesus Christ, not in an institution which has done so much harm, not only the scandals, but teaching unbiblical truths.
I am sorry you are leaving, as you have been kind and reasonable. Maybe one day, God will lead you back to the truth of faith in Jesus Christ, by grace alone, instead of penance, and transubstantiation, and Jesus still dying daily in the mass, instead of Jesus who died once for all. (Hebrews 9:28)
God bless!
I chose to covenant with other believers that interpret Scripture the way the Holy Spirit has led me. That doesn't mean others aren't saved, or don't love Jesus. It just means that in this big world of people who worship Jesus, there are many ways to help and serve one another within the local body of Christ.
I come here to learn and to teach. I hope to comfort others and to be comforted. My heart is to encourage and to be encouraged.
And just so you know, the BDF is not the only forum in CC. Spend some time praying for those who post needs in the prayer forum, or help those in the Family Forum who are crying out because of hurt. Hang around the Music Forum or the News Forum and learn what others are thinking.
As for the RCC, it is NOT a local body of believers. It is a megalith of mixed up history and tradition, which has strayed terribly far from the Bible and the grace of God. BUT, I know there are believers, seeking God, and I pray that one day they can come out from that institution, and find fellowship with other believers in Jesus Christ, not in an institution which has done so much harm, not only the scandals, but teaching unbiblical truths.
I am sorry you are leaving, as you have been kind and reasonable. Maybe one day, God will lead you back to the truth of faith in Jesus Christ, by grace alone, instead of penance, and transubstantiation, and Jesus still dying daily in the mass, instead of Jesus who died once for all. (Hebrews 9:28)
God bless!
What world do you live in? Have you not looked around you and see how wicked the world is? in a perfect world, all would have one mind, all would agree on the same thing, all would have one belief, one religion. But we don't live in a perfect world, we live in a world that satan is the God of.
We have hundreds of different denominations because of false teachings.
We have thousands of false teachings, because man tries to interpret the Word of God and then teach what they think it means.
We have many versions of the Bible, because having many versions causes Strife and confusion, And keeps people doubting the actual Word of God, exactly what satan (the God of this world) wanted.
Satan can't get rid of the TRUTH, so he does the next best thing, distorts it, causes other doctrines to come about, with just enough truth in them to get people to accept them, but just enough falseness to cause doubt, and confusion.
Scriptures teach it is going to get worse and worse. And it seems to me reading your post, that you are upset that it is worse and worse.
You want the Truth, believe and live by the Word of God, Don't believe people (even me) and what they teach. Don't associate yourself with any one particular denomination, in doing so, you separate yourself from others. If i were to say what denomination i was in, i would have to say the "LOVE ONE ANOTHER" denomination. Our belief is whatever the Word of God teaches, that is what we do. Interpretations we leave that to God, and not to men. We are like children, we simply live and obey the Word of God. If you seek the Truth, then believe and live by the Word of God. NOT the word of men.
^i^ Responding to OP
We have hundreds of different denominations because of false teachings.
We have thousands of false teachings, because man tries to interpret the Word of God and then teach what they think it means.
We have many versions of the Bible, because having many versions causes Strife and confusion, And keeps people doubting the actual Word of God, exactly what satan (the God of this world) wanted.
Satan can't get rid of the TRUTH, so he does the next best thing, distorts it, causes other doctrines to come about, with just enough truth in them to get people to accept them, but just enough falseness to cause doubt, and confusion.
Scriptures teach it is going to get worse and worse. And it seems to me reading your post, that you are upset that it is worse and worse.
You want the Truth, believe and live by the Word of God, Don't believe people (even me) and what they teach. Don't associate yourself with any one particular denomination, in doing so, you separate yourself from others. If i were to say what denomination i was in, i would have to say the "LOVE ONE ANOTHER" denomination. Our belief is whatever the Word of God teaches, that is what we do. Interpretations we leave that to God, and not to men. We are like children, we simply live and obey the Word of God. If you seek the Truth, then believe and live by the Word of God. NOT the word of men.
^i^ Responding to OP
a True Christian is one who is Christ-like.
This use to be well known, but not so much today. You see people realized that being Christ-like was to not be living in sins, ONCE they realized that, the Christian meaning Christ-like was soon put to death. NOW Christian does not mean Christ-like. Even though a True Christian IS INDEED CHRIST-LIKE.
^i^
This use to be well known, but not so much today. You see people realized that being Christ-like was to not be living in sins, ONCE they realized that, the Christian meaning Christ-like was soon put to death. NOW Christian does not mean Christ-like. Even though a True Christian IS INDEED CHRIST-LIKE.
^i^
I feel like this thread is coming from an RCC point of view. The problem is, RCC is not even uniform itself. Obviously, there are the differences that are acknowledged at the highest level to the lowest. The most obvious of these is clerical celibacy - Eastern Catholic priests can be ordained when married. There are obviously all kinds of variances about more minor issues liturgical differences, differences about iconography, about the kinds of music.
When you get to the important things, you will, officially, find a lot of agreement. Though, I suspect this has much more to do with the traditional top down and centralised approach to authority that has historically been Rome's approach (compared to all Protestant denominations, including Anglicanism and Lutheranism, which are the closest you can get to RCC in Protestantism) than it does with actually having the right answer.
And, of course, just because the leadership is agreed officially doesn't mean that they agree unofficially, and certainly doesnt mean congregants agree. I seem to remember a survey done in Ireland a couple of years back that found just over a quarter of all professing Catholics believed the Eucharist actually became, in any sense, the body and blood of Christ. The vast majority saw it as purely symbolic.
I would have thought that to be a significant disagreement within the church - if you aren't agree on the means of grace and what it actually accomplishes, then you lose the ability to claim a unified front.
Finally, it should be obvious to me that just because people agree on something doesn't mean it is true. The fact that the RCC officially speaking has a single unified theology says precisely nothing about whether that theology is correct.
When you get to the important things, you will, officially, find a lot of agreement. Though, I suspect this has much more to do with the traditional top down and centralised approach to authority that has historically been Rome's approach (compared to all Protestant denominations, including Anglicanism and Lutheranism, which are the closest you can get to RCC in Protestantism) than it does with actually having the right answer.
And, of course, just because the leadership is agreed officially doesn't mean that they agree unofficially, and certainly doesnt mean congregants agree. I seem to remember a survey done in Ireland a couple of years back that found just over a quarter of all professing Catholics believed the Eucharist actually became, in any sense, the body and blood of Christ. The vast majority saw it as purely symbolic.
I would have thought that to be a significant disagreement within the church - if you aren't agree on the means of grace and what it actually accomplishes, then you lose the ability to claim a unified front.
Finally, it should be obvious to me that just because people agree on something doesn't mean it is true. The fact that the RCC officially speaking has a single unified theology says precisely nothing about whether that theology is correct.
Unless you believe a false God sent Gabriel to tell a man who knew little to nothing about Christ and the prophets that he is angry that we follow Christ, but then tells us that he made a man look like Christ so that the people would believe it was Christ, and is going to pass judgement on us for believing in Christ, when its his /own/ fault that we do and he even tells us that he did it to begin with and the whole thing had nothing to do with us, I would avoid anything that has to do with Islam.
Please, please avoid Islam. The entire faith is an obvious attempt to undo what Christ did for you, created by the one that you are told came to steal, kill and destroy you.
Also, I dont really like that there are people on here accusing other Christians of hate when they generally just dont agree with the same issue. Doesnt that seem kinda....well.....hateful?
We shouldnt talk about how God is on our side against other Christians when we have a disagreement, no man is righteous, every one of us is guilty of evil, and only by His grace we are saved. God has given His grace to those who will humble themselves and submit to Him. We should try harder to humble ourselves and not boast that we are more knowing than another. I would imagine that anything that we do not have the right understanding of will be shown to His followers in time.
Please, please avoid Islam. The entire faith is an obvious attempt to undo what Christ did for you, created by the one that you are told came to steal, kill and destroy you.
Also, I dont really like that there are people on here accusing other Christians of hate when they generally just dont agree with the same issue. Doesnt that seem kinda....well.....hateful?
We shouldnt talk about how God is on our side against other Christians when we have a disagreement, no man is righteous, every one of us is guilty of evil, and only by His grace we are saved. God has given His grace to those who will humble themselves and submit to Him. We should try harder to humble ourselves and not boast that we are more knowing than another. I would imagine that anything that we do not have the right understanding of will be shown to His followers in time.