Legalism empowers DEMONS in your life!

[InSpiritInTruth]

We establish the moral law. Romans 13 talks about how we when we love our neighbor, we fulfill the law of not coveting, stealing, etc. The OT Law as an entire package is no longer binding. For Jesus changed things. He said turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. The Lord God told Peter in a vision to break the OT Law and eat unclean animals. Christians today are not seeking to rebuild the Temple to reinstitute the Temple sacrifices again (Which was a part of the Law).

I'm not saying we are justified by the works of the law, but neither should we try to make void the law as Paul said. The law is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal, and your above examples show this point. When Peter saw these unclean beasts as mentioned in the law of Moses, he saw outwardly what the law said concerning unclean beasts, but the Lord used unclean beasts in the law to represent men. (who are like beasts)

So did the spiritual law change, or did Peters perception of what God was truly saying in the law change when the Lord revealed to Peter he was speaking of men, and not unclean beasts? The problem is the carnal mind cannot perceive what the Spirit is saying in many parts of the Old Testament law, so it is easier for them to just say it is void, not worth anything, even some portraying the law as evil. But we are told the law is holy and good.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled, meaning many parts of the law are also prophetic; but not many can see this, nor understand this. Now I agree love fulfills the law, and no man is justified by the works of law. But I also find it dangerous doctrine to try make the law look like sin, or try to make the law of no purpose or benefit.


I believe instead of people preaching against the law of God (Gods law is good, and holy) people should rather spend more time preaching against evil works, and sin and all manner of unrighteousness. And instead of trying to dismiss certain aspects of the law, let us rather by the Spirit try to understand what the Lord is truly saying in the law of Moses.

Beware of preaching against the law.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Mitspa]

As I said before. I do not believe all of the 10 are binding anymore. I also said we are not under the law. So stop trying to paint me as trying to justify a works based salvation system. I don't believe that. I do not believe we go out and do a work so as to be justified or saved before God. I believe we repent of our sins in order to get right with God if we sin. We throw ourselves down before God's mercy and grace. That is why it is not of works.

Well it don't matter the law don't help anyone overcome sin...its strengthens sin! So what point do you think your making with trying to claim folks want to sin?

 

[sparty-g]

Hi all,

New user. Been reading for a few months. Quite a time to make my first post, jumping right into the fray! I ask for your warm welcome as brothers and sisters, and grace and understanding with the perspective I bring.

There are many spiritual teachings in the Scriptures, of course. I like to try to boil them down to practical lessons. One of the most practical issues I keep an eye toward is this: How should a faithful believer live their life today?

Mitspa, you bring a lot of Scripture to the discussion, which is great because it should be the basis of a Biblically-based discussion. Maybe I missed it, but in all your posts I don't find a practical, plain-sense definition of legalism. Please, if you will, provide a clear, thorough answer that has real, practical application to one's life (without simply posting Scripture -- I'm asking how you "translate" in your mind the Scripture we have available to us to define the concept that is legalism).

Next, the issue I have with those who simply repeat the summation of the Torah-Law ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself") is, again, the lack of specificity and clear, practical guidance. Is this how you would instruct a new believer? What about when the new believer says, "Ok, that is great, but how do I do that?" Didn't God give the Scriptures and the Messiah as our reference points so that we can properly instruct people? It isn't for our own subjectiveness to decide what is acceptable to God and what is not. Simply relying on the summation can lead to some twisted teachings, since anyone can attempt to justify their iniquity by claiming it's within the boundaries of what they define as "love."

Which leads to my next issue: what is the clear, practical definition of sin? What is the definition by which a believer can look at their actions/thoughts and decide whether or not they are doing what is acceptable to God? Relying on an imprecise definition of obedience ("love") leads to an imprecise definition of sin. Hasn't God given us more than enough counsel to be able to clearly and practically define these things and properly instruct those in the faith?

Thanks for putting up with me jumping into the mix and sharing my thoughts. I have a couple more comments on some previous posts in this thread, which I hope to share soon.

 

[michael56]

So you believe you can abide in unrepent and die, and still be saved?

You need to understand what it means to be born again Jason. If you are born again of the Holy Spirit YOU CANNOT view the fact Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary as a licence to sin. God is not stupid. Jesus did die for all your sins, if he did not YOU MUST LIVE UNDER A LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that is unarguable. The safeguard is being born again of the Holy Spirit

 

[Mitspa]

I'm not saying we are justified by the works of the law, but neither should we try to make void the law as Paul said. The law is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal, and your above examples show this point. When Peter saw these unclean beasts as mentioned in the law of Moses, he saw outwardly what the law said concerning unclean beasts, but the Lord used unclean beasts in the law to represent men. (who are like beasts)

So did the spiritual law change, or did Peters perception of what God was truly saying in the law change when the Lord revealed to Peter he was speaking of men, and not unclean beasts? The problem is the carnal mind cannot perceive what the Spirit is saying in many parts of the Old Testament law, so it is easier for them to just say it is void, not worth anything, even some portraying the law as evil. But we are told the law is holy and good.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled, meaning many parts of the law are also prophetic; but not many can see this, nor understand this. Now I agree love fulfills the law, and no man is justified by the works of law. But I also find it dangerous doctrine to try make the law look like sin, or try to make the law of no purpose or benefit.


I believe instead of people preaching against the law of God (Gods law is good, and holy) people should rather spend more time preaching against evil works, and sin and all manner of unrighteousness. And instead of trying to dismiss certain aspects of the law, let us rather by the Spirit try to understand what the Lord is truly saying in the law of Moses.

Beware of preaching against the law.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Just double talk...your not under the law but really you are.... and legalism is not obedience, faith and love is! So whats your point?

 

[Jason0047]

I would also add the reason their is so much sin in the church is because legalism is being taught, not grace! "the strength of sin is the law"

And when you don't stress how God's people should not be defined as living moral and good (or upright), then they are going to slip into thinking they can sin and still be saved. So one needs to have a balanced approach in their teaching on Soteriology. For a good Pastor should teach against both Antinomianism and Works based Salvationism hand in hand.

 

[Jason0047]

Just double talk...your not under the law but really you are.... and legalism is not obedience, faith and love is! So whats your point?

This is why we will never see eye to eye. Even when I say I am not under the Law or that I don't believe in a works based system, you still don't believe me.

 

[michael56]

God created a covenant whereby he put thedesire in your heart to obey Him − you have been born again. Because that isthe case, Jesus paid the penalty of your sin, but though he paid the penalty ofyour sin, the law God desires you to keep remains intact on your heart. By Jesus paying that penalty, Heremoved the true power of sin from your life. What happens if youtake the power of something away? It must weaken, mustn’t it? Nothing else ispossible. The Christian’s born again heartfelt desire to obey can now come tofruition, for Jesus’ sacrifice at Calvary has fatally weakened sin, which iswhat opposes obedience. So Paul states in Romans 3:31, “Do we,then, nullify the law by this faith? [a righteousness of faith in Christ-notobedience to the law] Not at all!Rather, we uphold the law.”

 

[michael56]

This is why we will never see eye to eye. Even when I say I am not under the Law or that I don't believe in a works based system, you still don't believe me.

You are under the law, unless Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary. Please take some time to consider that

 

[Jason0047]

You need to understand what it means to be born again Jason. If you are born again of the Holy Spirit YOU CANNOT view the fact Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary as a licence to sin. God is not stupid. Jesus did die for all your sins, if he did not YOU MUST LIVE UNDER A LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that is unarguable. The safeguard is being born again of the Holy Spirit

I understand that is what you believe. I also believe that a person is changed when they are born again, too. But what you do not realize is that your teaching is leading people to think the wrong way. God would never want a person to ever be misled into thinking they can do whatever they want because their future sin is forgiven them.

For you are ignoring the fact that there are many who do believe that they can sin and still be saved. A teaching that is almost identical to your teaching. It looks and sounds almost exactly the same.

 

[Mitspa]

Hi all,

New user. Been reading for a few months. Quite a time to make my first post, jumping right into the fray! I ask for your warm welcome as brothers and sisters, and grace and understanding with the perspective I bring.

There are many spiritual teachings in the Scriptures, of course. I like to try to boil them down to practical lessons. One of the most practical issues I keep an eye toward is this: How should a faithful believer live their life today?

Mitspa, you bring a lot of Scripture to the discussion, which is great because it should be the basis of a Biblically-based discussion. Maybe I missed it, but in all your posts I don't find a practical, plain-sense definition of legalism. Please, if you will, provide a clear, thorough answer that has real, practical application to one's life (without simply posting Scripture -- I'm asking how you "translate" in your mind the Scripture we have available to us to define the concept that is legalism).

Next, the issue I have with those who simply repeat the summation of the Torah-Law ("Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself") is, again, the lack of specificity and clear, practical guidance. Is this how you would instruct a new believer? What about when the new believer says, "Ok, that is great, but how do I do that?" Didn't God give the Scriptures and the Messiah as our reference points so that we can properly instruct people? It isn't for our own subjectiveness to decide what is acceptable to God and what is not. Simply relying on the summation can lead to some twisted teachings, since anyone can attempt to justify their iniquity by claiming it's within the boundaries of what they define as "love."

Which leads to my next issue: what is the clear, practical definition of sin? What is the definition by which a believer can look at their actions/thoughts and decide whether or not they are doing what is acceptable to God? Relying on an imprecise definition of obedience ("love") leads to an imprecise definition of sin. Hasn't God given us more than enough counsel to be able to clearly and practically define these things and properly instruct those in the faith?

Thanks for putting up with me jumping into the mix and sharing my thoughts. I have a couple more comments on some previous posts in this thread, which I hope to share soon.

Welcome aboard sparty-g and you are welcome here as far as its up to me

I was taught the law of love By the Holy Spirit. I found that when I walked in the Spirit by faith..knowing I was justified by faith alone...the fruits of the Spirit manifest in me. I found the law of love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit, gave me a super-natural love for others, and that in the Spirit I was doing by Divine Nature the things contained in the law... Love was more than keeping the writing code. And of course after years of study, sound doctrine of faith and love showed me what the Holy Spirit had already taught me in my heart. Does this help some?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Just double talk...your not under the law but really you are.... and legalism is not obedience, faith and love is! So whats your point?

My point is the law of God is not evil, and it is not sin. Many of your threads seem to be anti-law of God, but you should be preaching against sin instead of against the law.

 

[Jason0047]

You are under the law, unless Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary. Please take some time to consider that

No, I am not under the Law. I am not under the Law because I trust in Jesus Christ as my Savior right here and right now for my salvation without the deeds of the Law. If I sin again, I confess of that sin and forsake it with Christ's help. I trust in His mercy and grace to forgiven me and not in anything that I do. For Christ even does the work within me.

 

[michael56]

I understand that is what you believe. I also believe that a person is changed when they are born again, too. But what you do not realize is that your teaching is leading people to think the wrong way. God would never want a person to ever be misled into thinking they can do whatever they want because their future sin is forgiven them.

For you are ignoring the fact that there are many who do believe that they can sin and still be saved. A teaching that is almost identical to your teaching. It looks and sounds almost exactly the same.

We should be concerned for the 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ and walk away from the faith, and those who sit in churches each week crushed by their faliures to be good enough under the law.
I heard a minister preach and give that staggering statistic of so many walk away from the faith. He-as I believe in so many cases it is because they never knew Jesus died for all their sins.
Should we not plainly tell the whole message of the enormity of what Christ achieved at Calvary? Should we be bound to silence concerning it so those not born again of the spirit will look to abuse it? No, never!!

 

[Mitspa]

This is why we will never see eye to eye. Even when I say I am not under the Law or that I don't believe in a works based system, you still don't believe me.

I didn't write that to you...you seem to have some honesty Jason...I hope we can continue to hash out the truth and you will understand the obedience in the Spirit that I am trying explain? It may take a while but It s worth the effort

 

[sparty-g]

I'm not saying we are justified by the works of the law, but neither should we try to make void the law as Paul said. The law is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal, and your above examples show this point. When Peter saw these unclean beasts as mentioned in the law of Moses, he saw outwardly what the law said concerning unclean beasts, but the Lord used unclean beasts in the law to represent men. (who are like beasts)

So did the spiritual law change, or did Peters perception of what God was truly saying in the law change when the Lord revealed to Peter he was speaking of men, and not unclean beasts? The problem is the carnal mind cannot perceive what the Spirit is saying in many parts of the Old Testament law, so it is easier for them to just say it is void, not worth anything, even some portraying the law as evil. But we are told the law is holy and good.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled, meaning many parts of the law are also prophetic; but not many can see this, nor understand this. Now I agree love fulfills the law, and no man is justified by the works of law. But I also find it dangerous doctrine to try make the law look like sin, or try to make the law of no purpose or benefit.


I believe instead of people preaching against the law of God (Gods law is good, and holy) people should rather spend more time preaching against evil works, and sin and all manner of unrighteousness. And instead of trying to dismiss certain aspects of the law, let us rather by the Spirit try to understand what the Lord is truly saying in the law of Moses.

Beware of preaching against the law.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I agree and especially want to highlight the end of your post. The trouble I see is that when sin is not clearly defined, it's tough to preach against evil works and all manner of unrighteousness. And I also think this happens as a result of so much rallying against the law. When you break down the law into its component parts, what is it really? It's God's instructions for how to live our lives. We shouldn't be rallying against the instructions given to us. Wasn't the Messiah our model who lived a perfect life? Was His ministry one of preaching against the law, or preaching against evil works and unrighteousness?

 

[michael56]

No, I am not under the Law. I am not under the Law because I trust in Jesus Christ as my Savior right here and right now for my salvation without the deeds of the Law. If I sin again, I confess of that sin and forsake it with Christ's help. I trust in His mercy and grace to forgiven me and not in anything that I do. For Christ even does the work within me.

If Jesus did not die for all your sins at Calvary, you have to live under the law, for sin is transgression of the law. Therefore, your sin can condemn you. If that is the case, you must have right standing before God of obedience to the law, Paul is adamant, you do not have a righteousness before God of obedience to the law EG Rom 10:4,, Gal2:21, Phil 3:9, Rom 3:22&23

 

[Jason0047]

I'm not saying we are justified by the works of the law, but neither should we try to make void the law as Paul said. The law is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal, and your above examples show this point. When Peter saw these unclean beasts as mentioned in the law of Moses, he saw outwardly what the law said concerning unclean beasts, but the Lord used unclean beasts in the law to represent men. (who are like beasts)

So did the spiritual law change, or did Peters perception of what God was truly saying in the law change when the Lord revealed to Peter he was speaking of men, and not unclean beasts? The problem is the carnal mind cannot perceive what the Spirit is saying in many parts of the Old Testament law, so it is easier for them to just say it is void, not worth anything, even some portraying the law as evil. But we are told the law is holy and good.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled, meaning many parts of the law are also prophetic; but not many can see this, nor understand this. Now I agree love fulfills the law, and no man is justified by the works of law. But I also find it dangerous doctrine to try make the law look like sin, or try to make the law of no purpose or benefit.


I believe instead of people preaching against the law of God (Gods law is good, and holy) people should rather spend more time preaching against evil works, and sin and all manner of unrighteousness. And instead of trying to dismiss certain aspects of the law, let us rather by the Spirit try to understand what the Lord is truly saying in the law of Moses.

Beware of preaching against the law.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I agree. The Law of Moses was never bad for us. It was holy and good. It was a schoolmater to bring us unto Christ. It is only bad on our part (And not the Law's part) when we seek to be justified by the Law instead of God's grace. I believe true believers or saints will keep the moral law, preach the gospel, and help the poor not so as to be saved, but because they have been saved. But the Law is good and Holy. Jesus fulfilled that Law so that when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior, He can then impute His righteousness to us. He can then help us to walk in His good ways (With Him conforming us to His image).

 

[michael56]

This is the problem, people say they do not live under a law of righteousness, but they must if Jesus did not die for all their sins, past, present and future. They do not realise that is what they arew doing when they strive to live good lives(by not sinning according to the law), fearing if they fail they will be cast aside

 

[michael56]

But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Heb 9:26