SAVED BY WORKS

[dcontroversal]

Plus I think when it comes to Matthias I think a lot of people like to skip over verse 24;


Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

I didn't skip over anything Kenneth......and to answer above...show me verses that verbatim identify them as APOSTLES......simple at the end of the day....book, chapter and verse........like PAUL.....I am the least of he APOSTLES.......I am the APOSTLE of the gentiles, Paul, an Apostle...not of men, an APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST BY THE WILL OF GOD

The names of THE 12 APOSTLES are these<---definite article points to what is known...THE 12

For such are FALSE APOSTLES.......2nd Corinthians 11:13

ONLY ONE CONCESSION I WILL MAKE...BARNABAS is labeled as such in ACTS

But over all...we cannot just label someone an APOSTLE because they make the scripture......not going to argue about this....just my view which means nothing in the grand scheme of things when it comes to this line of thought.....

 

[pem]

I didn't skip over anything Kenneth......and to answer above...show me verses that verbatim identify them as APOSTLES......simple at the end of the day....book, chapter and verse........like PAUL.....I am the least of he APOSTLES.......I am the APOSTLE of the gentiles, Paul, an Apostle...not of men, an APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST BY THE WILL OF GOD

The names of THE 12 APOSTLES are these<---definite article points to what is known...THE 12

For such are FALSE APOSTLES.......2nd Corinthians 11:13

ONLY ONE CONCESSION I WILL MAKE...BARNABAS is labeled as such in ACTS

But over all...we cannot just label someone an APOSTLE because they make the scripture......not going to argue about this....just my view which means nothing in the grand scheme of things when it comes to this line of thought.....

Judas was called, Stalin was called, Hitler was called, Pilate was called etc etc ....all to do the Will of God. None were Christians . Arminians turn up at the wedding with their fig-leaves of self-righteousness but are still turned away . Only those clothed in the Robes of Christ are chosen . Hence many are called - few are chosen

Matthew 22:14​

 

[kennethcadwell]

I didn't skip over anything Kenneth......and to answer above...show me verses that verbatim identify them as APOSTLES......simple at the end of the day....book, chapter and verse........like PAUL.....I am the least of he APOSTLES.......I am the APOSTLE of the gentiles, Paul, an Apostle...not of men, an APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST BY THE WILL OF GOD

The names of THE 12 APOSTLES are these<---definite article points to what is known...THE 12

For such are FALSE APOSTLES.......2nd Corinthians 11:13

ONLY ONE CONCESSION I WILL MAKE...BARNABAS is labeled as such in ACTS

But over all...we cannot just label someone an APOSTLE because they make the scripture......not going to argue about this....just my view which means nothing in the grand scheme of things when it comes to this line of thought.....

Silvanus and Timothy were called Apostles in 1 Thessalonians 2:6 also, so no getting around the fact that there was more Apostles then the main 12 + Paul..................

 

[dcontroversal]

Silvanus and Timothy were called Apostles in 1 Thessalonians 2:6 also, so no getting around the fact that there was more Apostles then the main 12 + Paul..................

Already conceded that fact with Barnabas.....point still stands...if the bible does not label one as an apostle we have no right to identify them as such.......

 

[kennethcadwell]

Already conceded that fact with Barnabas.....point still stands...if the bible does not label one as an apostle we have no right to identify them as such.......

I know you conceded to Barnabas, but what about Silvanus and Timothy.
Do you agree that they were apostles to ?


The scriptures say they are in 1 Thessalonians 2:6, and what about Mark and Luke who wrote the two of the gospel books do you believe they were Apostles? They were not part of the original 12 yet early church writings have Mark and Luke as apostles with Peter and Paul also.

 

[michael56]

Of course after Paul converted he did not murder, steal, lie, covet, and so on because he walked in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Before he came to Christ he was guilty of murder and all the other sins, so once again you are showing exactly what Paul said we as believers in Christ can not continue to live a sinful lifestyle if we are hoping to receive salvation.
A few people need to understand the willful sinner the bible speaks of, and it does not mean if you sin today you did it willfully. The willful sinner is the one who continues everyday to continue to commit the same sins without repenting or confessing them to the Lord and letting that Godly sorrow and the Holy Spirit help you to turn away from them.

For one to say they are in Christ and then continue to do the same sins everyday the bible states those people are trampling the blood of Christ underfoot.

The underlying reason Paul said sin shall not be your master, is because you are not under law but under grace. It is true we are sanctified by the Spirit, but just to keep repeating if we walk in the Spirit we live as God desires, without giving the underlying reason as to why victory occurs gives a false message.

You state that if we keep committing the same sins every day we are trampling the blood of Christ underfoot. This would be dependant on a person hearing the truth of the message, if they were not shown the core of the Gospel message that does not necessarily apply

 

[john832]

Gotta love situational ethics.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The underlying reason Paul said sin shall not be your master, is because you are not under law but under grace. It is true we are sanctified by the Spirit, but just to keep repeating if we walk in the Spirit we live as God desires, without giving the underlying reason as to why victory occurs gives a false message.

You state that if we keep committing the same sins every day we are trampling the blood of Christ underfoot. This would be dependant on a person hearing the truth of the message, if they were not shown the core of the Gospel message that does not necessarily apply

There is no depends at all in this issue as it is either or.
Either you walk by faith (Spirit) unto salvation or you walk by the flesh (sinful nature) that leads to the second death. You can not have it both ways, as you can not serve two masters. You can not serve flesh and the faith in Christ both. Obedience is required throughout the scriptures without obedience to repent of sins and be born again through baptism you do not abide in Christ, and He does not abide in you.


Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Baptism/born again)



Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[AngelFrog]

So its a sham and we must rely on our own works?

It was never a teaching of Christ that works saves us. It isn't in the Bible that we are saved if we work at it.

When a Christian is saved by faith and the grace of God they then are inspired to do good works having the Holy Spirit within to compel and guide them to that end.

Faith without works is dead means that if we say we're saved but don't prove it by becoming new creations in the light and love of Christ, we are still dead in our sins.

There is no scripture in the new testament that tells people they can work their way into Heaven.

 

[michael56]

There is no depends at all in this issue as it is either or.
Either you walk by faith (Spirit) unto salvation or you walk by the flesh (sinful nature) that leads to the second death. You can not have it both ways, as you can not serve two masters. You can not serve flesh and the faith in Christ both. Obedience is required throughout the scriptures without obedience to repent of sins and be born again through baptism you do not abide in Christ, and He does not abide in you.


Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Baptism/born again)



Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Let me repeat again, you seem to have missed the points. The underlying reason according to Paul sin shall not be your master is because you are not under law but under grace. If that is not explained alongside stating we live an evermore holy life by the sanctification of the Spirit, you are not giving the full message, that is dangerous.

You state that if we keep committing the same sins every day we are trampling the blood of Christ underfoot. This would be dependant on a person hearing the truth of the message, if they were not shown the core of the Gospel message that does not necessarily apply

I don't know how much more plainly I can write this. If you do not tell people the truth of the message, in its fullness they are not necessarily trampling the blood of Christ underfoot, this should be understood without question.

The power is in the truth, not a diluted message

 

[kennethcadwell]

Let me repeat again, you seem to have missed the points. The underlying reason according to Paul sin shall not be your master is because you are not under law but under grace. If that is not explained alongside stating we live an evermore holy life by the sanctification of the Spirit, you are not giving the full message, that is dangerous.

You state that if we keep committing the same sins every day we are trampling the blood of Christ underfoot. This would be dependant on a person hearing the truth of the message, if they were not shown the core of the Gospel message that does not necessarily apply

I don't know how much more plainly I can write this. If you do not tell people the truth of the message, in its fullness they are not necessarily trampling the blood of Christ underfoot, this should be understood without question.

The power is in the truth, not a diluted message

I do not miss or not teach that underlying message of being under grace and not under the law.
The thing is I don't leave it at just that and neither did the Apostle Paul, as he explained what being under grace means. He nowhere says you will not sin again, but says you can not let sin reign in your bodies no more to where you constantly obey it everyday in your life. Paul constantly warns believers about continuing in sins, living a lifestyle contrary to the faith, and the outcome he shows for continuing in such a lifestyle is not salvation.
The ideal that physical possession of eternal life is ours right now is not supported by the bible, it was started around 100+ years ago, because I admit do not know the exact date, by a man who took a few couple scriptures out of context and then twisted the Greek definition of pisteuo to make it say salvation first. But that then makes over 30 other scriptures contradict. I have posted before and will post again if requested how for the first 500 years of the early church OSAS was not taught in the church...........

 

[michael56]

I do not miss or not teach that underlying message of being under grace and not under the law.
The thing is I don't leave it at just that and neither did the Apostle Paul, as he explained what being under grace means.

Paul did explain what being under grace means, but you do not. That is why he did not leave it there.
If Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness you cannot be made unrighteous in God's sight for your imperfections where the law is concerned(your sin) You oppose such a belief. Therefore, Paul was entitled not to leave it there, but are you in the circumstances?

 

[Jeff_56]

why do pagans keep saying GOD MADE ANYTHING IMPERFECT ? (or anyone)

 

[kennethcadwell]

Paul did explain what being under grace means, but you do not. That is why he did not leave it there.
If Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness you cannot be made unrighteous in God's sight for your imperfections where the law is concerned(your sin) You oppose such a belief. Therefore, Paul was entitled not to leave it there, but are you in the circumstances?

Apostle Paul did not teach a person can not become impure do to sins again.
If you believe he did then you especially need to go reread 1st and 2nd Timothy, and in those epistles we have Apostle Paul warning Apostle Timothy of becoming impure again.


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, where unto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


2 Timothy 3:14
But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;


Apostle Paul believed some would lose their faith...............................

 

[michael56]

Apostle Paul did not teach a person can not become impure do to sins again.
If you believe he did then you especially need to go reread 1st and 2nd Timothy, and in those epistles we have Apostle Paul warning Apostle Timothy of becoming impure again.


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, where unto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


2 Timothy 3:14
But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;


Apostle Paul believed some would lose their faith...............................

Kenneth

You do not preach what Paul did of grace, only state selective verses. You do not believe Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, that is plain from what you write. If you refuse to accept the core of Paul's message of grace, you are not in the position to rightly quote other verses selectively he wrote.

 

[AngelFrog]

why do pagans keep saying GOD MADE ANYTHING IMPERFECT ? (or anyone)

Where did that happen?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth

You do not preach what Paul did of grace, only state selective verses. You do not believe Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, that is plain from what you write. If you refuse to accept the core of Paul's message of grace, you are not in the position to rightly quote other verses selectively he wrote.

I do believe believing in Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, but what I also do is not stop there as Paul did not stop there. For Apostle Paul showed that by abiding in Christ and walking in His righteousness will not lead one to sin. If a believer sins again it is because they were drawn away by their own lusts, and if they give into them and let them get full grown to where they control you again that leads to death and not eternal life; James clearly shows this in his epistle.
Apostle Paul does not just say the law is done away with all together, as he says it has its purpose and through faith we establish the law in our lives not void it. How do you establish it ? By walking in love because love does no wrong to others and is not disobedient. The commandments of the Lord should flow easily through a born again believer and not be looked at as burdens, because it is the Holy Spirit doing the work in and through us.

The bible makes it clear those who refuse to give up sins is because they love darkness more then light................

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It was never a teaching of Christ that works saves us. It isn't in the Bible that we are saved if we work at it.

When a Christian is saved by faith and the grace of God they then are inspired to do good works having the Holy Spirit within to compel and guide them to that end.

Faith without works is dead means that if we say we're saved but don't prove it by becoming new creations in the light and love of Christ, we are still dead in our sins.

There is no scripture in the new testament that tells people they can work their way into Heaven.

not to rag on your post, it is right on.

I do find it amazing the ken would like this, when it is what myself and everyone else in here talking to kenny about his works based gospel have said since day 1.

Kenny believes this, he just adds to this, and makes it works based.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Apostle Paul did not teach a person can not become impure do to sins again.
If you believe he did then you especially need to go reread 1st and 2nd Timothy, and in those epistles we have Apostle Paul warning Apostle Timothy of becoming impure again.


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, where unto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


2 Timothy 3:14
But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;


Apostle Paul believed some would lose their faith...............................

Rom 8 : 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness

According to Ken this fact Paul wrote is not true.

A body can not be dead in sin while the spirit is alivem for the body would be carnal. and the spirit can not live when the body is carnal.

Thanks Ken, But I chose to trust Paul. Not a proud modern day pharisee

 

[kennethcadwell]

not to rag on your post, it is right on.

I do find it amazing the ken would like this, when it is what myself and everyone else in here talking to kenny about his works based gospel have said since day 1.

Kenny believes this, he just adds to this, and makes it works based.

I liked it because this is what I have been saying all along, as I never said a person has to work their way to earn salvation. That once again as always is your false assertion on me, and you seem to not want to give that false witnessing on me up.
I believe works of the Spirit are a product of faith, but the bible also shows that no works (fruits of the Spirit), not born again to receive salvation. The bible also shows that you refuse to see is that it says more than once that people will fall away from the faith. Jesus said it, Paul said it, Holy Spirit said it, James said it, and Peter said it. If you want to continue to deny people falling from the faith and not ending up with eternal life, then you are disagreeing with every one of them in the bible.