Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[JGIG]

According to the rest of Romans 7 it neither says the law is done away with nor a sin to follow. The law just makes you aware of what sin is. Which in 1 John 3 it states, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." So to me, again you can interpret how ever you want to, to me based off of these parts of scripture it is not wrong to follow the law.

Now there are wrong ways to follow it, such as if you add to it make it into something it's not.

You are making it into something it's not.

You're saying that the Law is God's will for our perfection - be perfect as God is perfect, yes?

Yet the Bible says this:

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)
​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I think you're missing my point. My point on the matter is it's not sinful to follow the law. Following the law as a means of salvation, I'd say that's a sin. And I see no "yoke" in my walk. It's not a burden to me that I follow it. I don't walk in the law to try and put myself above others, I walk in it because believe or not it's a good lifestyle. It's doesn't mean I'm walking without faith in Yeshua, because I do have faith in Him as my Lord and Savior. Also you're implying that I follow the law to justify what Yeshua did, and I am not.

And if I'm wrong, then tell me.

You're wrong .

The Law was given to increase transgressions, the Law arouses sin, the Law produces death, the Law produces fruit unto death, and the Law is the power of sin (Rom. 5:20, 7:8, 7:5, 1 Cor. 15:56).

The Law is weak and useless, and never made anyone perfect (Heb. 7:18-19).

The Fruit that God desires is produced when we are led by the Spirit, and if we're led by the Spirit, we're not under the Law (Gal. 5:18). Conversely, if we are under the Law, we are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing the Fruit of the Spirit.

Tell us again why it's a good thing to attempt to 'keep' the Law???

What commandments was Yeshua talking about when He said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Yeshua is God, so what other commandments were dished out between the beginning and when Yeshua walked the earth?

There are commandments in the Bible before the Law given at Sinai and commands given after the Law given at Sinai. Torah folk only see Sinaitic Code when they see the word 'commandments'.

What did Jesus mean about keeping commandments?

Let's take a look:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (from Jn. 13)

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (from Jn. 14)

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (from Gal. 5)
​

We're given clarity here about what the commandments are after the Cross:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)​

And I've said this before (not in the same wording), I'm a follower of Yeshua, not a follower of Paul. Paul had good teachings, but Yeshua is my teacher.

Regarding Paul, Christ prophesied and did the Work to implement the New Covenant; Paul merely explains what that work actually accomplished. More here: Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?

If you are in Christ, He is also your High Priest, yes?

Christ is of the wrong tribe to be high priest for the Old Covenant.

That presents a bit of a problem, yes?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments? I'm still trying to figure out how 1 that doesn't make sense, and 2 when did the words of Paul become greater than Yeshua's? Almost every time I quote Yeshua, it's countered with Paul.

Jesus preached Law to those born under the Law and prophesied the New Covenant before doing the Work that would bring it to pass.

Paul, the consummate Law-keeper, was called upon to explain how the Work of Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New. Again, I direct you here: Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?

-JGIG

 

[vic1980]

This thread needs a reminder

[video=youtube;HWrZU7jXAGY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWrZU7jXAGY[/video]

 

[JGIG]

Acts 20:6 But we sailed away from Philippi after jthe Days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days joined them kat Troas, where we stayed seven days.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman, “the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this place, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father”

Where does scripture say the Feasts must be observed in Jerusalem? Israel existed as a nation for almost 500 years before the feasts were observed at Jerusalem.

Oh, so you CAN do sacrifices without the Temple in Jerusalem?

I'm guessing you're not doing sacrifices because those jots and tittles have passed - wait - heaven and earth are still here.

What gives? Sacrifices are part of the Law - why aren't you doing them?

No priesthood, you say? Christ is your High Priest now?

Yes, yes He is.

From the tribe of Judah.

New Priesthood.

New Covenant.

Permanent because of an oath form God and the power of an indestructible Life.

The Levitical Priesthood is never coming back.

Why?

Christ is a High Priest FOREVER.

The Old Covenant is obsolete in Christ.

If you're in Christ, you're in the New Covenant.

Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness; the Law stirs up sinning and is the power of sin.

The choice regarding which covenant to rest in seems pretty clear to me.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Torah is Hebrew for instructions. The kjv translators translated it as law. (I wonder if that trips people up?)

Also, as I've asked before, anyone want to discuss which commandments are hard? I mean, they're simple really, I fail to see what's the big deal.

Deut. 12:32, 13:6-11
32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.

9 >>> You must certainly put them to death. <<<

>>> Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, <<<

>>> and then the hands of all the people. <<<

10 >>> Stone them to death, <<< because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.​

Yep. Pretty straightforward and simple.

Execution for violation of the 'instructions' isn't a big deal? Easy to do?

Then why aren't Torah folk obeying these 'instructions'?

-JGIG

 

[Grandpa]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments? I'm still trying to figure out how 1 that doesn't make sense, and 2 when did the words of Paul become greater than Yeshua's? Almost every time I quote Yeshua, it's countered with Paul.

The Lord Jesus teaches you the same thing that Paul tries to explain to you as well.

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Ye that labour (work at the law) and are heavy laden (struggling very much).

Galatians 3:23-26

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul is not at odds with the Lord Jesus. People are at odds with Paul and the Lord Jesus when they attempt to go back to a covenant that was in force before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:15-17

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What has caused you to be entangled again? Were you ever untangled to begin with?

Galatians 5:1-6
[SUP]1[/SUP]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Are you blessed by Christ or your Torah observance? You and Jesus already know the answer to that one in your hearts. Its probably time you untangle the mess you are in.

Were you practicing Judaism when you were saved? If not, you have no business going back to something you were never a part of.

I really don't like it when people say that Paul teaches against the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul doesn't teach against Christ, he teaches against your legalism, the same as Christ did to the legalists of His day.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Time to figure out what this means.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Being obedient to the word of God does not make you legalistic.

People act as if salvation in the OT came from keeping the law. I double dare you to bring me the verse quoting that the law will bring you salvation. That is why Paul was saying what he was saying about the law. You get people quoting and misquoting Paul again and again and again on this website. Paul was a servant and Yeshua the Master. Yeshua kept the law (and so did Paul by the way) but the difference between the two was before Paul met Yeshua he believed like our GRACE friends that the law could save you... but when he met Yeshua it was all about relationship and faith.

 

[Karraster]

Oh, so you CAN do sacrifices without the Temple in Jerusalem?

I'm guessing you're not doing sacrifices because those jots and tittles have passed - wait - heaven and earth are still here.

What gives? Sacrifices are part of the Law - why aren't you doing them?

No priesthood, you say? Christ is your High Priest now?

Yes, yes He is.

From the tribe of Judah.

New Priesthood.

New Covenant.

Permanent because of an oath form God and the power of an indestructible Life.

The Levitical Priesthood is never coming back.

Why?

Christ is a High Priest FOREVER.

The Old Covenant is obsolete in Christ.

If you're in Christ, you're in the New Covenant.

Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness; the Law stirs up sinning and is the power of sin.

The choice regarding which covenant to rest in seems pretty clear to me.

-JGIG

You say the commandments (law?) is the enemy. That is the heart of our disagreement.

Where have I said there is no new priesthood? I haven't.

Why is following Messiah and His commandments at odds with each other? They aren't.

 

[Karraster]

Deut. 12:32, 13:6-11
32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.

9 >>> You must certainly put them to death. <<<

>>> Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, <<<

>>> and then the hands of all the people. <<<

10 >>> Stone them to death, <<< because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.​

Yep. Pretty straightforward and simple.

Execution for violation of the 'instructions' isn't a big deal? Easy to do?

Then why aren't Torah folk obeying these 'instructions'?

-JGIG

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whatever you think I have admitted, I most certainly have not. I did not admit it's "just an attempt at best," nor did I intend to imply anything that would frame my point in such a diminishing way, nor did I support whatever point you're trying to make. Since that is not what I implied or intended, my words shouldn't be misappropriated and misapplied in that way. It's an internet forum and we all make these mistakes about misreading posts, so we can move on from that now that I have made it clear that I did not admit that.

The "attempt" I was talking about is fundamentally no different from the walk of all God's children. We are all doing what we can to live out God's will. Once saved, we are not puppets on strings or mindless robots. We still have our mind, will, and emotions, and we make daily choices about our attitudes and actions. Sometimes we make good ones and sometimes we make bad ones. Our walk of faith in the Spirit is about being conformed to the mind of the Messiah, identifying sinful behavior and repenting thereof, and identifying how to walk in love. It doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't happen by sitting on our duff and doing absolutely nothing. We are exhorted to study the Scriptures, test messages, and grow. This takes conscious effort, which is easily observable by just watching any body of believers.

The matter I was addressing was a practical one of hypocrisy: Do self-claimed "Law keepers" consider all aspects of the Torah-Law or ignore certain aspects of it? The example cited throughout this thread has been dealing with the commands regarding head trimmings and beards. Is a "Law keeper" a hypocrite when they keep from adultery, keep from lying, keep from murdering, keep kosher, keep the sabbath, keep the feasts, etc., but then when they come across such commands about head trimmings and beards, they are seemingly ignoring these commands as evidenced by their hair cuts and shaved face? My response is no, they are not hypocrites. It could be that they haven't got to this point in their walk to consider these verses. Or they aren't yet well learned enough to properly understand the application of these commands in context. Or the problem could be with the accuser: they may not be properly understanding the commands or their applicability.

Either way, the "Law keepers" heart still desirse to follow God's will for their lives, and this is the "attempt" I was referencing: this process of growth. Growth is not a futile attempt. But your reframing of my words seems to imply that it is futile if one makes any attempt to reference God's revelation in the front of the book. We are "attempting" to follow the Messiah, the same as any other Christian, and this "attempt" is not futile. The difference between us is that we recognize that the Messiah kept the Torah-Law faithfully, as it is an expression of God's holiness and His will, and we believe that to follow the Messiah is connected to that will as expressed in the commands. If God's will wasn't in the commands, then the Messiah wouldn't have made that His manner of life and His walk. So we live to follow God's will, not simply a corpus of laws, but the Life that the Messiah expressed in His obedience to the Father's will.

So again, I prefer something like "Messiah followers" over "Law keepers," but I understand the purpose in employing the latter term. Thank you.

this makes no sense.

How is me trimming my beard a different way, or cutting my hair a certain way, Or worshiping some feast or holiday going to show me how to love the poor. Save the lost. Help my brother or sister who in Christ who is going through a crises, Shine as light in the world and draw others to Christ.

Your telling me that a person who is following the law is more righteous and holy than a person who is out winning lost souls. Out loving the people who need loved, Out sharing the unconditional and amazing love God has given to us who do not do those things?

Thats why paul fought the law and thos trying to keep it so hard. It gives you a sense of godliness because you follow these rules. and are deemed "not a sinner, righteous, and holy" and are "not like the sinner"

I think people like you need to look at the story of the pharisee and tax collector.

Following rules and laws do not make you Holy. Getting on your knees and begging for Gods mercy because you understand you are hopless is what makes you holy. for it is ONLY THEN that God can share his love to you, and empower you to take that love, and share it with other.

This is not a one time event, This is a daily event, failure to do this, will make you useless to God. You maye cut your hair right, Wear the proper clothes, Always obey some sabbath law, or holiday and feast. But you are useless to God. Your religion is useless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So those who are Messianic are "better" than those who dedicate themselves to Christ without the messianic customs, according to what you have just written. It always goes back to that. The messianic followers are always "more righteous, more led by God, more zealous for God, more enlightened, more obedient", and so forth, I can go on and on, this is what you guys believe, than us common Jesus followers... and you on top of it say that we judge your walk... I'll stop there... may God open your eyes that all are equal in Christ...

I would go even further to say, if we are all saved, your right in our position.

But in our daily walk, and usefulness to God. we are not even close. They will not find the joy which is found in Chrisst and loving others until they give up their legalism, Which is WHY paul feared for the galation church, and deemed if they did not stop their law and tradition following, he feared for their spiritual lives

 

[john832]

Thank you that you at least admit that it's just an attempt at best.

So how do those fare who don't even attempt to keep the Law?

Oh wait, I think I know...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.

In context, the following Scripture shows two things:

1. The Fruit of Gentile believers under the Spirit
2. The Fruit of Jewish believers under the Law

I agree that the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 drafted the 'four things' that Gentiles were to abstain from was to avoid offense to Jewish believers.

I do not agree that that meant that there were a set of 'rules' for Jewish believers and another for Gentile believers.

In Christ we are all one New Man, DEAD to the Law, and alive in Christ, New Creations to be led by His Spirit and no longer under the Law.

-JGIG

Amen, be all things to all people. so as not to offend your brother or sister (or potential brother or sister)

Paul taught this all through his epistles.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you are truly in Christ, you are correct. You are not condemned by what you do, good or bad. You are free in Christ to err.

Law-keeping is an unfruitful undertaking, however. It does nothing to bring the Lost to Christ and seeks to put believers back under a Law they are dead to, making them unfruitful as well. I've been observing and studying the Torah-pursuant movement for about 9 years now, and see this to absolutely be the case.




Salvation is not in Torah: Correct
Condemnation is not in Torah: Incorrect

Have you read Torah?!




Not all Hebrew Christians 'keep' Torah. And MANY Hebrew Christians find the Hebrew Roots/Torah Pursuant movements offensive.

-JGIG

I have witnessed that slso from the jews in my church.

They found something better, the joy of giving of God and loving others.. Something the law could never bring to them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments? I'm still trying to figure out how 1 that doesn't make sense, and 2 when did the words of Paul become greater than Yeshua's? Almost every time I quote Yeshua, it's countered with Paul.

the problem is as paul said, following Gods law will not make you righteous.

Loving others on the other hand will.

if your spending you day, weeks months and years worrying about following some guideline and well you are at doing it. Your wasting time you could have in serving others, and more self focused, and less others focused.

I guarantee Jesus did not walk around trying to figure out what part of the law he had to keep his focus was on who is around him, who needs his help. who can he serve.

He did not fulfill the law because he was focused on the law. he fulfilled the law because ever one he came in contact he knew he had to serve, and th elove the father gave him empowered him to love others. in doing so, he proved the law of love works.

lets take jesus example. not the example of the pharisee or religious jew

 

[john832]

Here are the questions that one need answer before rightly dividing the Word of Truth:

On which side of the Cross do you live?

On the side of having sins forgiven.

What did Christ accomplish there?

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Hmmm, being justified for having sinned, not the abolition of the Law, rather the payment for sin.

Christ did not die to abolish the Law, had He done that, you would not need a Savior. If there is no Law, there is no sin...

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

And what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Christ is the propitiation for sin...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

G2434

ἱλασμός
hilasmos
hil-as-mos'
atonement, that is, (concretely) an expiator: - propitiation.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

Christ serves as Perfect, PERMANENT High Priest for which Covenant?


If you really want to obey God, you should make sure you're in agreement with Him what that means.

-JGIG

Oh I am. The first thing I notice about obeying God is that He tells us to KEEP His COMMANDMENTS...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I hear a lot of prattle about love, yet this never quite seems to get quoted...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Fulfilling the Law through love means obeying it, not abolishing it. The Law defines sin and also defines love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just curious...how in the world does observing the Feasts prevent you from serving others? Don't you ever take a day off to do something special?

who are you focusing on when your observing some feast? Yourself, or the people who need your help?

Yes I take days off. When I can love and serve others during that day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Torah is Hebrew for instructions. The kjv translators translated it as law. (I wonder if that trips people up?)

Also, as I've asked before, anyone want to discuss which commandments are hard? I mean, they're simple really, I fail to see what's the big deal.

so how perfect are you?

 

[john832]

Again with those jots and tittles. Either they passed or they didn't. Which is it?

-JGIG

Well did they?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Or did Christ lie?