Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[Biblelogic01]

I do want to apologize for yesterday evenings comment on the whole Yeshua to Paul thing (no sarcasm), I think that was kind of offensive in a few ways.

Anyway, despite the disagreements, I stil believe it is ok to be Torah observant non-legalistically, because it does not state at all that follow Torah is sin itself, it just makes you aware of sin which is something I would like to stay away from.

For those who believe the Torah can be a burden, well I really don't know what to say to that.

I find it very easy to love others, and love God at the same time, which is what Torah is about if you actually read the commands in it (for those who want to try and throw the death side of things at me, just further back in the thread and read my posts, it explains Yeshua defeated death and Yeshua is our judge, therefor the death side of Torah lies in Yeshuas hands).

Again Torah is no means of salvations because that is through Yeshua and Yeshua alone. Torah is a lifestyle, and yes I do follow every aspect of it.

If anyone wants a quick explaination on how it's not burdensome, just ask.

 

[Pumicestone]

....... Torah is a lifestyle, and yes I do follow every aspect of it.......

Really? You buy and sell slaves, stone adulterers, sacrifice sheep or goats or doves, insist that rapists must marry their victims etc etc etc,
And I trust you don't breakfast on bacon and eggs !

 

[Dan_473]

I do want to apologize for yesterday evenings comment on the whole Yeshua to Paul thing (no sarcasm), I think that was kind of offensive in a few ways.

Anyway, despite the disagreements, I stil believe it is ok to be Torah observant non-legalistically, because it does not state at all that follow Torah is sin itself, it just makes you aware of sin which is something I would like to stay away from.

For those who believe the Torah can be a burden, well I really don't know what to say to that.

I find it very easy to love others, and love God at the same time, which is what Torah is about if you actually read the commands in it (for those who want to try and throw the death side of things at me, just further back in the thread and read my posts, it explains Yeshua defeated death and Yeshua is our judge, therefor the death side of Torah lies in Yeshuas hands).

Again Torah is no means of salvations because that is through Yeshua and Yeshua alone. Torah is a lifestyle, and yes I do follow every aspect of it.

If anyone wants a quick explanation on how it's not burdensome, just ask.

it's not burdensome if you follow it loosely... is that the short version?

also, I appreciate your presence here.

 

[john832]

do you try to do what the text says, or more of a looser approach? like beard cutting, wearing tassels... what's your approach to stuff like this?...

Are you familiar with type and anti-type?

Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

The tassels or fringes were a physical type for a people without access to the Holy Spirit as a reminder.

The anti-type is here...

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The fringes were a shadow of the Holy Spirit to come. The ceremonial practices were the type of the spiritual...

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 

[Biblelogic01]

Slaves, yes there are laws on slaves, but Torah also says to obey the laws of the land and there are no slave in modern culture. Also on slavery (don't pick an choose things you don't understand), they didn't treat slaves the way modern culture shows slave owners treating them. They were actually treated more like servants, kind of like butler or maid, I know this because there are laws on how to properly treat a slave, but again there are no slaves in modern culture where we live, so there really was no point in bringing this up.

Stoning, there can't be a modern stoning because there is not court/justice system for it. There's a whole series of events that have to take place for a stoning, they don't just grab people and stone them. 1 basically the accused has to be brought forth by 2 witness, has to be accused, and has to know that it would lead to this. Why do you think Yeshua said, "Let the one with no sin cast the first stone." It's because after the religous leaders that brought the adulterer to Yeshua left, therefor noone left to accuse her. Yeshua being the judge of our sins told the adultress that she is forgive and tells her to turn away from her sin. Also along with stoning you have to have a priesthood set up for what would be like a court session. There is no temple and there is no priesthood that can conduct a proper trial for this to due so, and then again that goes back to Yeshua, He is our High Priest and our judge.

Sacrifices; there is no temple, or Holy/sanctified ground like a tabernacle or the temple. All sacrifices require that. Since there is no temple in this world that is deemed a sanctified holy temple unto God, there cannot be sacrifices. Plus Yeshua was the ultimate sacrifice for us.

The rapist must marry the victim? You're taking that way out of context to perverse the Torah. That law portains to basically immorality of pre-marrital intercorse. Along with that if there is a rapists I'm pretty sure that would fall under sexual immorality in itself, and there are laws against that.

I can keep going if you would like.

And I eat eggs, I don't eat bacon or pork. So what. I was actually not eating pork long before I became Torah observant because my personal trainer in middle/high school had me on a strict diet, and pork and shellfish were not allowed. I only ate fish chicken and veggies, and again that was before I became Torah observant. I started that in 8th grade, I didn't start following Torah until I was a senior in high school.

If you're going to ask a question on it, please do not perverse and twist the wording.

 

[Elin]

But Yeshua (being God, which means He's also the one who gave the Torah/Law to Moses) said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." At this point in history
the only thing He could have been reffering to is the Torah. There was no other set standard of commandments at that time.

He gave the two commandments of love which fulfill (accomplish) the whole law.

Keeping in mind that he couldn't reveal the whole gospel which was based on his sacrifice because it had not yet been made.

We have to look to the NT writers for the whole gospel.
And there we learn justification/righteousness/salvation is not by law keeping, but is by grace only through faith,
that salvation by law-keeping is another gospel and is anathema.

 

[john832]

Funny, this passage doesn't get quoted much...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Reason it doesn't get quoted much? It is a direct quote of Jer 31:31-34...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And the word for Law here is...

H8451

תֹּרָה תּוֹרָה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
Total KJV occurrences: 219

 

[Biblelogic01]

it's not burdensome if you follow it loosely... is that the short version?

also, I appreciate your presence here.

I really wouldn't say follow it loosely, I mean I follow what it says. Like for the tassels, I wear tassels and that's it. There is a lot in Torah that cannot be propperly observed because of modern society. There's no temple, there are no tabernacles (and you can't just through a tabernacle and declare it holy). A huge majority of the laws are over what you do when invading a foreign country (those laws pertained to when the children of Israel were taking the promise land). And if you actually pull up a list of the 613 laws. . . . The majority are summed up in love your neighbor and love God i.e.: take care of the poor, take care of widows, take care of orphans, give to the poor, give tithing, give to charity. Those are all things of love and are not a burden to follow.

Last night I re-read a list of the 613 commandments and I'd say at least half if not more, you cannot do period because there is no temple, or Levitical priesthood.

So, if you start adding to whats already in there, and making it more than what it is. . . . Then yes that would be a burden, but one of the laws is do not add or take away.

 

[john832]

Stoning, there can't be a modern stoning because there is not court/justice system for it. There's a whole series of events that have to take place for a stoning, they don't just grab people and stone them. 1 basically the accused has to be brought forth by 2 witness, has to be accused, and has to know that it would lead to this. Why do you think Yeshua said, "Let the one with no sin cast the first stone." It's because after the religous leaders that brought the adulterer to Yeshua left, therefor noone left to accuse her. Yeshua being the judge of our sins told the adultress that she is forgive and tells her to turn away from her sin. Also along with stoning you have to have a priesthood set up for what would be like a court session. There is no temple and there is no priesthood that can conduct a proper trial for this to due so, and then again that goes back to Yeshua, He is our High Priest and our judge.

Stoning always comes up. Seems funny, these people who bring it up are certainly familiar with lethal injection. We execute certain criminals today in much the same way Israel did then. There was due process, guilt had to be established and then the death penalty was carried out by order of the authorities.

 

[john832]

We have laws still on the books concerning owning slaves in America. Thankfully, we do not practice slavery but when we did, the slaves would have fared much better under the laws given to Israel than the laws of the U.S.

Sacrifices were the schoolmaster to point at Christ...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

This schoolmaster is no longer needed now that Christ's sacrifice is reality...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Elin]

No you don't sound mocking.

I was kind of using the WWJD bracelet as a metaphore. But yeah following Torah non-legalistically is pretty simple in that sense.
What Yeshua and Paul were getting at is that the Pharisees were adding this, thus making it extremely hard to keep it.

What Paul was getting at is one thing, and one thing only.

Law keeping does not save, only grace saves (Eph 2:8-9).

And to mix law keeping with grace in effecting salvation is another gospel which cannot save.

The Pharisees that were saved after Yeshua were still holding to the legalistic ways of Torah. On top of that
they were basically trying to shove it down people's throat. Which is what I believe Paul was teaching against.

It wasn't about shoving the law down their throat. It was much more serious than that.

Paul was teaching against the Pharisees who were trying to make law keeping necessary for salvation,
trying to base salvation on law keeping rather than only by God's free grace through faith.

Instead of shoving it down their throat, I believe Paul was saying; First get saved and come to salvation through Yeshua, 2nd here are some examples and small steps on how to live (love one another, love God, stay away for immoralities, etc.), and 3rd listen to what is taught in church (or at the time in synagogue,
churches didn't come around til a few centuries later).

They held church in their homes, where the gospel, the meaning of Christ, his work and Christian living were taught.

They would be teaching Torah in the churches at that time, but not a perverted legalistic Torah.

The issue was not the Torah vs. a perverted legalistic Torah.

The issue was law keeping vs. only God's free grace through faith as the basis of salvation.

Law keeping is in no way the basis of salvation, only God's free grace through faith is the basis of salvation.

 

[Biblelogic01]

He gave the two commandments of love which fulfill (accomplish) the whole law.

Keeping in mind that he couldn't reveal the whole gospel which was based on his sacrifice because it had not yet been made.

We have to look to the NT writers for the whole gospel.
And there we learn justification/righteousness/salvation is not by law keeping, but is by grace only through faith,
that salvation by law-keeping is another gospel and is anathema.

Re-read what that passage says. Yeshua was asked what was the greatest commandment, and He quoted Torah.

Matthew 22:34-40
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


He was asked which was the greatest and quotes this:
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one![SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]5 [/SUP]You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

The 2nd as far as love your neighbor as yourself, I couldn't exactly find it (my resources are minimal right now), but if you look at a lot of the Torah commands they are examples of love towards others.

Now again Yeshua was ask what is the greatest, and He replied to that exact question the way it should responded. So Yeshua is speaking right from Torah right there.

 

[Biblelogic01]

What Paul was getting at is one thing, and one thing only.

Law keeping does not save, only grace saves (Eph 2:8-9).

And to mix law keeping with grace in effecting salvation is another gospel which cannot save.



It wasn't about shoving the law down their throat. It was much more serious than that.

Paul was teaching against the Pharisees who were trying to make law keeping necessary for salvation,
trying to base salvation on law keeping rather than only by God's free grace through faith.


They held church in their homes, where the gospel, the meaning of Christ, his work and Christian living were taught.


The issue was not the Torah vs. a perverted legalistic Torah.

The issue was law keeping vs. only God's free grace through faith as the basis of salvation.

Law keeping is in no way the basis of salvation, only God's free grace through faith is the basis of salvation.

You obviously do not read my posts thuroughly. I've said not once, that I find grace in the Torah. I have simply said I follow it. I have said multiple times salvation is through Yeshua.

If you are here to bash, please do not twist what I say by just picking out parts of what I say.

This is the second time I am asking someone not to twist something.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Stoning always comes up. Seems funny, these people who bring it up are certainly familiar with lethal injection. We execute certain criminals today in much the same way Israel did then. There was due process, guilt had to be established and then the death penalty was carried out by order of the authorities.

Exactly, you said it better than me brother.

 

[Elin]

Biblelogic01... ::sigh::

I can tell you have a good heart. You have provided your understanding of legalism, you have asked some follow up questions to better understand others, and you probably hope to untangle some confusion on the matter. As someone who likely shares much common ground with you on Torah observance, I tried to do the same when I first joined this forum but that desire quickly diminished. I also got really busy and haven't been able to respond to a number of outstanding posts, but that's a different issue. Let me just tell you: most people here have already drawn their lines in the sand. You're simply going to find those who support your position and those who do not, with few to no people in the middle who may still be unsure on these issues. Maybe the casual reader who does not have an account or has an account but doesn't post often. But in terms of a discussion, most people are going to pick their sides quickly and stick to their guns. As unlikely it is that people on the other side will convince you to change your ways, you are just as unlikely to have much of an impact on them, especially in regards to Torah observance. But keep fighting the good fight, regardless! Just don't let yourself get exhausted over it.

On legalism, the conventional definition is very prevalent on these boards and elsewhere. The conventional definition has already been provided by someone else in the thread: Legalism is commonly viewed as anything which is not popular in the modern church or not kept by individuals themselves. If you do it and they don't, and if you feel God wills it for His children and they don't, you're likely to be called a legalist, simple as that. If it's a matter others agree with, then you won't be called a legalist. It's a term employed very subjectively.

I feel the scriptural definition is different:
In the NT writings, I see legalism as seeking legal conversion to Jewish status, or some standard of Law keeping, in order to merit salvation. This is
attempted through reliance on one's own works instead of the work of the Messiah.

Agreed. . .

The Torah observant folk on this board will say they don't keep the Torah to merit salvation, but instead do it as a result of the grace given to them and out of their love for God and neighbor.
Those in the other camp will say that any attempt to follow the commands found in the Torah is relying on one's own works and results in death. The argument goes round and round and likely no one comes out any wiser or having changed their viewpoint.

I don't think you represent the informed "other camp" correctly.

The not-so-small informed other camp argues against legalism as you defined it above.

On your Sabbath thoughts, I am in agreement as far as I can see. The prohibition against picking grains and rubbing them was a pharisaical rule. Pharisaical rules are not God's Torah and are not binding. The problem is the Pharisees did bind them upon the people, even putting aside God's Torah in order to enforce them. This is the Messiah's problem with the Pharisees in many instances in the gospels.
The Messiah never comes against God's Torah,

He came against "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth," against the divorce of Dt 24:1, against making oaths. . .

but only against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in elevating their man-made rules and traditions above God's Law.

And keeping in mind that the Messiah lived and preached under the old covenant when he came against some of the Torah in Ex 21:23-24; Dt 24:1; Lev 19:12.

We have to wait until after his death for revelation of the new covenant teachings spoken by him in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers, where the ceremonial law is set aside and keeping the Decalogue is not the basis of salvation.

 

[Pumicestone]

.......... The rapist must marry the victim?
You're taking that way out of context to perverse the Torah.
That law portains to basically immorality of pre-marrital intercorse (sic).
Along with that if there is a rapists I'm pretty sure that would fall under sexual immorality in itself, and there are laws against that........

Deuteronomy 22:28-29King James Version (KJV)

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

 

[Elin]

Are God and Yeshua the same? If so wouldn't Torah be God's word/commandments? If so then wouldn't we want to follow His commandments because
He said if you love me you'll keep my commandments?

And those commandments are two (Mt 22:37-39), obedience to which fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40).

 

[Biblelogic01]

And those commandments are two (Mt 22:37-39), obedience to which fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40).

Yeshua is saying those are 2 of the greatest commandments (that means, there's more), you again are not reading it correctly. Yeshua it saying these 2 commandments sum up the commandments in the Torah. I'm pretty sure if there were only 2 commandments, He would tell them there are only 2 commandments. Again He was asked which is the greatest, so He answer which ones were the greatest, and goes on further to explain that those 2 commandments are the sum of the Torah.

 

[Elin]

Re-read what that passage says. Yeshua was asked what was the greatest commandment, and He quoted Torah.

Matthew 22:34-40
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


He was asked which was the greatest and quotes this:
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one![SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]5 [/SUP]You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

The 2nd as far as love your neighbor as yourself, I couldn't exactly find it (my resources are minimal right now), but if you look at a lot of the Torah commands they are examples of love towards others.

Now again Yeshua was ask what is the greatest, and He replied to that exact question the way it should responded. So
Yeshua is speaking right from Torah right there.

Agreed. . .and those two alone fulfill (accomplish) all of them (Mt 22:40).

 

[JGIG]

Being obedient to the word of God does not make you legalistic.

People act as if salvation in the OT came from keeping the law. I double dare you to bring me the verse quoting that the law will bring you salvation. That is why Paul was saying what he was saying about the law. You get people quoting and misquoting Paul again and again and again on this website. Paul was a servant and Yeshua the Master. Yeshua kept the law (and so did Paul by the way) but the difference between the two was before Paul met Yeshua he believed like our GRACE friends that the law could save you... but when he met Yeshua it was all about relationship and faith.

Nope.

This is not a salvation issue.

This is about how believers should live after salvation.

Paul is very clear on the matter:

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you:

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, [if they received the Spirit, they were in Christ]

or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, [again, clearly speaking of believers here]

are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? [the works of the Law are carnal and not of the Spirit, see Gal. 5:18] (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG