Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[atwhatcost]

(Passing out nice thick pillows.)

Don't mind me. I'm just giving some of the family what is needed while they keep pounding their heads against the wall fighting the perfectionists. Does anyone remember that faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the Word of God? Just thinking. They've done been given God's Word. Isn't it time for God to do his thing? Does it really matter how many times everyone says the same thing when the only answer back is a childish, "Nanh Hunh?"

I don't see the purpose in repeating the same arguments, but hey, I also don't see the purpose of sushi, unless I want to fish and need some bait. Here say, some folks still like raw fish, so who am I to judge? So, let me just do what I want to do for those who want to repeat the same arguments to bang their heads against deaf walls.

(Passing out the rest of the pillows.)

 

[KennethC]

The Scriptures say to him to knoweth to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin. For example: If you live in certain areas where not taking out the trash on time can lead to having bears come into your house looking for some good smelly fun to dig into then surely you should know it is better to take the trash out on time so as to protect your family from such a thing. The same can be said if you live in Texas because of the bugs. Or if you live in Arizona because of the scorpions. You are protecting your home from unwanted critters or creatures that can cause problems for you and your home. So no. It is good to take the trash out on time. Also, certain house guests who stop by unexpectedly could think you are lazy; Which could leave a poor testimony or witness in your service to Jesus Christ, too.

That is only personally to that person and not how another tells a person it would be sin if they don't do it.
If I feel that I don't need to do it this week and can wait tell next week to do then it would not be sin to me, only if I was to look at it that I needed to do that this week but then refused to do it would it then become sin.

Yes it is good to take the trash out but it does not always make it sin, unless you personally put emphasis on it to make it a have to do now situation importance and then don't do it. It is all about the personal emphasis the individual puts on an item, as your computer can be a sin as well if you put more emphasis on it then doing other things of your household. Meaning if you are neglecting to get things done in your house to do other things, then you are also in sin.

Once again I will ask: Do you believe if a person repents/confesses on their death bed they will be forgiven ???

 

[Jason0047]

Dear At-What-Cost:

Love calls us to hope all things (See 1 Corinthians 13). I have not given up on people here in hearing the truth of God's Word (Whereby a true faith can come).

 

[JesusIsAll]

just so..... It's hurtful and spiritually ignorant and very damaging

I've known a few holy joes too...in my own family actually...I was forever being told 'I need to come back to Jesus' because I disagreed. I also got the 'God told me to tell you' message on occasion until one day I yelled (yes I yelled) back 'You haven't heard from God and He hasn't told you a thing.' Well, that brought about silence, but initiated a war behind my back with the result that my entire family ( and some 'friends') turned against me because of lies told them (sans my dad who had passed away by then cause otherwise, it never would have happened)

They are complete monsters. They share a trait common with psychopathic criminals. At the heart of it is the desire, the need, to control others, a pathological narcissism. (Ironic, it's mainly based in being very fearful people, fearing everything and everybody in a paranoid way as to need to control everything in their environment to feel secure, hence especially impossible to confront being helpless and repentant before God.) Our Lord was very hard on the Scribes and Pharisees, for this very reason, a criminal, blind self righteousness, that places self on the throne.

 

[Jason0047]

That is only personally to that person and not how another tells a person it would be sin if they don't do it.
If I feel that I don't need to do it this week and can wait tell next week to do then it would not be sin to me, only if I was to look at it that I needed to do that this week but then refused to do it would it then become sin.

Yes it is good to take the trash out but it does not always make it sin, unless you personally put emphasis on it to make it a have to do now situation importance and then don't do it. It is all about the personal emphasis the individual puts on an item, as your computer can be a sin as well if you put more emphasis on it then doing other things of your household. Meaning if you are neglecting to get things done in your house to do other things, then you are also in sin.

Then there is the mold. If a person lets mold build up in their house because of trash, then it is dealing with an issue of effecting their health. God says if you destroy his temple, he will destroy you. So no. I believe God wants us to always do good even in minor things because they lead to the best possible good or outcome. Now, does that mean I am perfect yet in all minor things? No. But with Christ's help, I can be.

Once again I will ask: Do you believe if a person repents/confesses on their death bed they will be forgiven ???

Yes. For I believe the thief on the cross was saved.

 

[KennethC]

Again i respectfully disgree. That's why 2 cor talks about we war spiritually not carnally.....and resisting the devil he will flee.
Romans 4 talks of strongholds, which the alord knew we would face. Even in the stronghold of sin, we are STILL his.
When we submit, come back to him, relationship is restored.
There's no level of sin, or length of time .

Right there in your own response you said come back to Him, but the bible speaks of those who will fall away from the faith to never return to the Lord. And it says the ending result of those that do this is not eternal life, and this is what the bible says believers can still do;

*Things Children of God Can Do:


1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13


2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17


3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20


4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11


5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12


6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23


7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1


8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12


9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27


10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14



This is how Strong's and Thayer's Greek study guides show how "save their soul from death" in James 5:19-20 is used;

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

 

[KennethC]

Then there is the mold. If a person lets mold build up in their house because of trash, then it is dealing with an issue of effecting their health. God says if you destroy his temple, he will destroy you. So no. I believe God wants us to always do good even in minor things because they lead to the best possible good or outcome. Now, does that mean I am perfect yet in all minor things? No. But with Christ's help, I can be.



Yes. For I believe the thief on the cross was saved.

I don't think most people Jason let trash just pile up and pile up inside their house, as people usually have bigger trash cans outside their house to place the trash in, or like apartments they have dumpsters to take it to. There is no written law that it has to be done right then and there of the day the trash gets picked up. It is all about the emphasis the person puts on the issue, and just because you may think it is sin then it is sin to you. But the way I or others may look at the same issue it might not be sin.

For instance look at eating foods the OT deemed unclean in the Mosaic written ordinances.
It is not sin to eat those foods now under the new covenant and you can eat them, however if it cause another who is weak in the faith to stumble if you eat it in front of them then you are sinning. Same if you were told they offered it to an idol before you take a bite, and then you still eat it then you are sinning. It depends on the emphasis and situation as one way it is not sin, but in another it is.

I am glad you said yes to that question because that means a person can live their whole entire life in enmity to God, but when they are dying in their bed they can still repent/confess and be forgiven. Now if you can speak in a way to show the difference between one who continues in sin and a backslide in a Christians walk, as I believe that is why some are having trouble with what you say as the bible makes a difference in the two as the one who backslides and then repents will still be forgiven.....

 

[Jason0047]

I would say that OSAS proponent today is sort of similar (althought note exact) to the Christian Scientist in their way of thinking. The Christian Scientist believes that there is no such thing as sin (Because it is a man made theory according to them). The OSAS proponent believes sin exists on a physical level for them but on a spiritual level,, it does not exist. So we see here a similarity. Sin does not exist on a spiritual level for both the Christian Scientist and the OSAS proponent.

Also, the Christian Scientists will say to true believers that there God is one of fear and not love. This is similar to what I have heard said by OSAS proponents many times when believers have brought up passages (that they rarely ever explain) that warn the believer to continue in God's good ways (otherwise they will be cut off). I say this not out of any kind of hate, but in love for standing up for what is true and good within God's Word.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't think most people Jason let trash just pile up and pile up inside their house, as people usually have bigger trash cans outside their house to place the trash in, or like apartments they have dumpsters to take it to. There is no written law that it has to be done right then and there of the day the trash gets picked up. It is all about the emphasis the person puts on the issue, and just because you may think it is sin then it is sin to you. But the way I or others may look at the same issue it might not be sin.

For instance look at eating foods the OT deemed unclean in the Mosaic written ordinances.
It is not sin to eat those foods now under the new covenant and you can eat them, however if it cause another who is weak in the faith to stumble if you eat it in front of them then you are sinning. Same if you were told they offered it to an idol before you take a bite, and then you still eat it then you are sinning. It depends on the emphasis and situation as one way it is not sin, but in another it is.

I am glad you said yes to that question because that means a person can live their whole entire life in enmity to God, but when they are dying in their bed they can still repent/confess and be forgiven. Now if you can speak in a way to show the difference between one who continues in sin and a backslide in a Christians walk, as I believe that is why some are having trouble with what you say as the bible makes a difference in the two as the one who backslides and then repents will still be forgiven.....

Okay, while I am open to the idea that it may not be a sin per say to a person to take out the trash one week, but if they were to let it pile up whereby it causes problems to their health and well being, then yes... I can see this as being a sin (for sure) because it is now moving into the realm of destroying God's temple. Anyways, what I am saying is that if your conscience tells you it is wrong to not take the trash out, then it is wrong for you. For he to knoweth to do good, then to him it is sin. So yes, it can be sin for one person, and perhaps not a sin for another.

But just to be clear (So as to not mislead our audience), sins such as lying, murdering, and hating are always bad and will always lead unto spiritual death into the Lake of Fire. Those types of sins will always cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God if they are not confessed and forsaken.

As for the backslidden believer: Yes, I believe they can come back thru repentance and renewing their faith in the Lord. I also believe the Tax Collector was saved (even though he struggled with sin). However, God does not want us to be backslidden so as to repent and God does not want us to struggle with sin. The Lord wants us to walk as He walked. This is possible because of Jesus Christ and not of our doing (As you know).

 

[Rosesrock]

Right there in your own response you said come back to Him, but the bible speaks of those who will fall away from the faith to never return to the Lord. And it says the ending result of those that do this is not eternal life, and this is what the bible says believers can still do;

*Things Children of God Can Do:


1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13


2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17


3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20


4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11


5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12


6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23


7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1


8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12


9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27


10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14



This is how Strong's and Thayer's Greek study guides show how "save their soul from death" in James 5:19-20 is used;

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνεινὑπέρτῶνψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινεςστρατεύονταικατάτῆςψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοποςτῶνψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειντάςψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήνἐκθανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρίαψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειντάςψυχάςἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάςψυχάςπιστῷκτίστῃπαρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

Yes i did to restore the relationship

 

[Rosesrock]

Although i think this thread about sinless perfection, i think we agree there's no such thing so this discuss has actually shifted and is addressed in probably 1000 other threads.

 

[Jason0047]

Although i think this thread about sinless perfection, i think we agree there's no such thing so this discuss has actually shifted and is addressed in probably 1000 other threads.

Unless of course an OSAS proponent wants to explain each word in what it says in 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, and 2 Peter 2:1, 14. I mean honestly. I cannot understand how you can not read those passages and have them mean something different than what they say plainly.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Although i think this thread about sinless perfection, i think we agree there's no such thing so this discuss has actually shifted and is addressed in probably 1000 other threads.

Just so. The thread was to point out chastisement of the Lord, how He works with His children, highlighting teaching in the book of Hebrews and many other Bible verses, strong proof that puts the lie to a few senseless claims people make around here. But the situation always devolves to a repetition of the same errors, refuting firm promises of scripture, nothing really left but these verses and maybe some "Yo mama" jokes,

Eternal Security Scripture Verses
​

 

[KennethC]

Okay, while I am open to the idea that it may not be a sin per say to a person to take out the trash one week, but if they were to let it pile up whereby it causes problems to their health and well being, then yes... I can see this as being a sin (for sure) because it is now moving into the realm of destroying God's temple. Anyways, what I am saying is that if your conscience tells you it is wrong to not take the trash out, then it is wrong for you. For he to knoweth to do good, then to him it is sin. So yes, it can be sin for one person, and perhaps not a sin for another.

But just to be clear (So as to not mislead our audience), sins such as lying, murdering, and hating are always bad and will always lead unto spiritual death into the Lake of Fire. Those types of sins will always cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God if they are not confessed and forsaken.

As for the backslidden believer: Yes, I believe they can come back thru repentance and renewing their faith in the Lord. I also believe the Tax Collector was saved (even though he struggled with sin). However, God does not want us to be backslidden so as to repent and God does not want us to struggle with sin. The Lord wants us to walk as He walked. This is possible because of Jesus Christ and not of our doing (As you know).

Yes if they continue to let it pile up and it leads to other issues such as health problems then yes it becomes a sin....

As for your second paragraph sins such as lying, murder, and hate will not always lead to spiritual death and the lake of fire, as those sins can be repented of to. Have you ever told a lie in your life, if you say no then like they say you are already lying ???

David murdered..........

Moses murdered.........

Apostle Paul was involved in the persecution and murder of disciples of Christ such as Stephen when he was known as Saul.....

All three of them have repented of those sins of hatred and murder and thus have been forgiven and will have eternal life, as the bible states only when a person continues to do those things without repentance or show that their repentance is not true by continuing to still live that same way. They are not automatically unforgivable sins !!!

Yes God does not want us to backslide but it does happen, and He shows that we are not to go around just making a judgment call on their salvation and say they are condemned by doing such. We are called to go after them and bring them back to the Lord by using love and His word to rebuke and esteem them to the proper way to walk in the faith.....

 

[Rosesrock]

Unless of course an OSAS proponent wants to explain each word in what it says in 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, and 2 Peter 2:1, 14.

Unless of course you swallow your pride and read the posts ive already posted. We disagree jason, get over it. I believe im saved through grace, i will never lose my salvation. Im sorry if you're jealous over that. Im secure in my heavenly father and scripture. Ive already said we can agree to disagree which you keep coming back. We will never agree and im good with that :d

 

[Rosesrock]

Just so. The thread was to point out chastisement of the Lord, how He works with His children, highlighting teaching in the book of Hebrews and many other Bible verses, strong proof that puts the lie to a few senseless claims people make around here. But the situation always devolves to a repetition of the same errors, refuting firm promises of scripture, nothing really left but these verses and maybe some "Yo mama" jokes,

Eternal Security Scripture Verses
​

The yo mama jokes are on the word bro

 

[KennethC]

Yes i did to restore the relationship

Yes you did and you did what the bible says one has to do in order to keep them from walking back into perdition.
The issue with the osas doctrine is to me it seems to ignore the other side of the coin taught in the scriptures of those who do not return to the Lord but continue in your sinful ways they have returned to.

Even the parable of the lost sheep given by Jesus says only by repenting are they welcomed back into the fold, but some have said they would keep their salvation rather they repent or not. Lord Jesus clearly says in Luke 13:3 that if the person does not repent they will perish !!!

 

[Jason0047]

Yes if they continue to let it pile up and it leads to other issues such as health problems then yes it becomes a sin....

As for your second paragraph sins such as lying, murder, and hate will not always lead to spiritual death and the lake of fire, as those sins can be repented of to. Have you ever told a lie in your life, if you say no then like they say you are already lying ???

David murdered..........

Moses murdered.........

Apostle Paul was involved in the persecution and murder of disciples of Christ such as Stephen when he was known as Saul.....

All three of them have repented of those sins of hatred and murder and thus have been forgiven and will have eternal life, as the bible states only when a person continues to do those things without repentance or show that their repentance is not true by continuing to still live that same way. They are not automatically unforgivable sins !!!

Where are in agreement on these points. Not sure why you think I disagree here (As I believe I stated clearly that sin can be forgiven thru confessing it and forsaking it).

Yes God does not want us to backslide but it does happen, and He shows that we are not to go around just making a judgment call on their salvation and say they are condemned by doing such. We are called to go after them and bring them back to the Lord by using love and His word to rebuke and esteem them to the proper way to walk in the faith.....

Well, if a believer has backslidden in the faith and they are living in a life of sin that we can see, then they are proving that they are not saved. So it is not wrong to correct them and say they need to repent and be forgiven. But yes, I agree that love and using loving words is the best tactic than an all out approach of telling them that they are a sinner in need of repentance. For we are to be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

 

[JesusIsAll]

The yo mama jokes are on the word bro

Whutev'r dat mean, Rockee Rose. (My finger is itching on the trigger, but no time for Yo mama now!)

 

[Jason0047]

Unless of course you swallow your pride and read the posts ive already posted. We disagree jason, get over it.

I do not believe you and or anyone else here as provided a proper explanation on the following verses that I have provided. I need a word by word play of what you think those verses say. If not, it just makes it appear like you are ignoring them (if you cannot explain them).

I believe im saved through grace, i will never lose my salvation.

Which is not taught in the Bible. You have to prove your case with the Scriptures and then be prepared to explain the context when I show it to you.

Im sorry if you're jealous over that.

I am not jealous of your belief in the slightest way. Actually, I see the OSAS belief as a doctrine immorality and as pure evil. So I am grieved and saddened that you hold to such a belief and hope you come to the knowledge of the truth of what God's Word really says on this matter.

Im secure in my heavenly father and scripture. Ive already said we can agree to disagree which you keep coming back. We will never agree and im good with that

Never say never. God has a way of changing people. For I had once argued that there was no such thing as God, but the Lord had other plans for me and what I had once thought.