English Please!

[atwhatcost]

Here are a couple things I don't like about using non-English ways of referring to God/Jesus:

1. It comes across as super-arrogant. You know the guy that always has to use Latin expressions when there are perfectly good English ones? He's annoying, right? He comes across like a pompous jerk. Sure, he may not really be a pompous jerk. But you'll have a hard time convincing most people that he isn't one. If this is right, and it is morally acceptable to use the usual English words to refer to Jesus, for instance, then using the Hebrew would be an unnecessary turn-off. That's reason enough not to use it.

2. I can sort of understand why someone would want to use Yahweh, or YHWH, since the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. I certainly don't think it is required. But the New Testament, however, was written in Greek, and the English "Jesus" is just a transliteration of the Greek word "Iesous." So, disparaging a transliteration of the word used in the inspired Word of God to replace it with a word that was not used in the inspired word of God is absurd. What? Paul didn't know the word Y'shua (or whatever)? If he did, then why didn't he use it in the New Testament? The pro-Hebrew-names crowd can't say, "Well, he was writing to a Greek-reading audience." After all, they think they should use Hebrew names when speaking to an English-speaking audience, no? So Paul should have, too. But he didn't. And he was inspired by the Holy Spirit -- which is more than we can say for anyone using Hebrew names today.

I'm from Philly. My city has been called "a checkerboard of ethnic neighborhoods." Quite a few of them are/were Jewish. In reality, off this board, most of the people who I've heard use the word Yeshua were Jewish -- either Messianic or not. They also tended toward using a sentence around the word that was completely Yiddish. They knew Yiddish. I didn't. So I liked that they'd translate the Yiddish for me, and continue to use the word Yeshua even when they spoke in Philly, (which is often different than American or English. lol) There was an accent to it, I haven't heard nonYiddish speaking people quite master. It fit the cadence of their Yiddish too.

Kind of like hearing a Greek say "hero" and mean a sandwich.

 

[atwhatcost]

So language has no rules? And you make statements that I try to aid by pointing us both to some one who is an expert in the matter...but you admit to refusing to read the information and instead decide that you will hold on to your point of view...flawed as it may be? The only reason I even addressed you with the link is because you first made a comment on something I stated. It wasn't meant to be a debate. By your reasoning, we should never accept expert advice or consult some one with better understanding on a subject and just decide that we know best with our limited information. Well then let's just throw out all the text books in our colleges

Now if you have read anything I wrote on this thread you would see that I agree that Jesus is the more recognized form of the name in Western society, which is why I communicate with people by the name Jesus. Furthermore I made a point that translation or transliteration is not the heart of the matter, the person of Jesus Christ/Yeshua Messiah is.

Bless you brother.

Off topic, but just sayin'. lol

Can we throw out some textbooks in college? I still remember my textbook, How to Lie with Statistics. (I must have had to buy the first issue, because mine was yellow. Just as corny, but yellow.)

I also remember having to read some books on theory of communications that have since been debunked. I realize it's less likely that language books will change, but I really can remember a few books I was stuck with in college that still make me think, "What in the world?" lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Jesus is a transliteration from the Latin Iesu. Jesu is a transliteration from the Hebrew, Yeshua. So, what is the problem? If you want to use English only, you must use His name in English which would be Salvation, or the Salvation of Yah(God).

Let us allow each other to honor Yeshua, Jesus, Iesu, or Salvation as one feels is most appropriate in the sight of God, Yahweh.

This English only attitude is fine in a specific congregation, but this forum is world wide, and we are one family regardless of language. Remember God is not wrapped in the flag of any nation, and anyone who believes He is does not have a clue as to the meaning of the Nation of God.........

Hmm, after all this, I find myself somewhere between you and Willie. I really don't have any problems with what people call God, just as long as they get the right and only God. I've got no problems if someone calls him Dad, Daddy, Abba, Brother, Lord, or Spirit for that matter. But, it would require a lot of context to call him Salvation.

 

[Is]

Here are a couple things I don't like about using non-English ways of referring to God/Jesus:

1. It comes across as super-arrogant. You know the guy that always has to use Latin expressions when there are perfectly good English ones? He's annoying, right? He comes across like a pompous jerk. Sure, he may not really be a pompous jerk. But you'll have a hard time convincing most people that he isn't one. If this is right, and it is morally acceptable to use the usual English words to refer to Jesus, for instance, then using the Hebrew would be an unnecessary turn-off. That's reason enough not to use it.

2. I can sort of understand why someone would want to use Yahweh, or YHWH, since the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. I certainly don't think it is required. But the New Testament, however, was written in Greek, and the English "Jesus" is just a transliteration of the Greek word "Iesous." So, disparaging a transliteration of the word used in the inspired Word of God to replace it with a word that was not used in the inspired word of God is absurd. What? Paul didn't know the word Y'shua (or whatever)? If he did, then why didn't he use it in the New Testament? The pro-Hebrew-names crowd can't say, "Well, he was writing to a Greek-reading audience." After all, they think they should use Hebrew names when speaking to an English-speaking audience, no? So Paul should have, too. But he didn't. And he was inspired by the Holy Spirit -- which is more than we can say for anyone using Hebrew names today.

I think a lot of it has to do with people that have been wrongly convinced that it's acceptable and even mandatory.

 

[atwhatcost]

I addressed your entire premise and tried to explain that a very basic understanding of language would educate you in understanding the different mechanics of English vs Semitic language. No I can't understand why pointing you to an expert is such an issue for you? Does the fact that it's a link make the information any less relevant? Or do you simply refuse to learn anything that might be contradicting to your preconceived notion? Please explain why you will not read an expert's explanation on this subject.

I've been quiet for longer than I'm comfortable with. (I am very chatty, so any quiet is uncomfortable for me. lol) But, just want to give you a heads-up. He's going to go round and round as long as you're willing to round-and-round with him. No problems if you want to, but just giving you a heads-up how long he'll keep this up.

 

[Is]

I boo booed on some words in post # 103.
"seem to be the sect of the Pharisees not pahrisees", "while he abode on the mount, not munt", "seventy elders not sevnty", "the work was undertaken not nudetaken", "president" not presient", "is what they call the Mishnah not ishnah",

Ahhhhhh nuts, guess I need to download spell check.

 

[Angela53510]

When I was in high school, I took both German and French. And a lot of other subjects in English, like physics, Math, English, etc.

In French class, I answered to the French pronouciaton of my name. In German, I answered to the German pronounciation of my name. In the other classes, I answered to the English pronouciation of my name. It was quite normal to me. But if someone had called me by my German pronounciation in Chemistry I might have been a bit shocked. Contextually confused.

The fact is, in English, we have certain ways to pronounce the word "God" "Jesus" and "Christ." They are not wrong, they are just what our culture uses.

If I am reading the NT in Hebrew, I expect to see a totally different word for Jesus. (I do have a NT Hebrew version!) If I am reading the OT in Hebrew, I expect different names for God. Or if I used the Septuagint, I expect to see the name of God, and Jesus in a different form than the OT Hebrew. And of course the words would be the same as in the Greek NT.

Or, any other language! We use the words that are culturally relevant to us. So if a Hebrew speaking person was saved, I would think they would use "Y'shua" or some variation of Joshua. Etc, etc.

So why fight about this?? Use the name that feels most comfortable to you. For me, it is the language I am reading the Bible in. Since my heart language is English, I tend to use it, in my thoughts and prayers. Although one time, I was trying to remember the words in French, so I could witness in French, and so I started praying completely in French. Very contextual to say, "Jésus." And not to far different from English, except the accent mark.

We need to use the name we feel most comfortable using. But not to demand others use the same name that we happen to be most partial to. And always remember, the Bible was NOT written in English, because English didn't come into existance for more than a millennia! So don't be Anglo-centric!

 

[RickyZ]

So it's 'Jesus' and not 'Yeshua... '
'the LORD' and not 'Yah, Yahweh, Jehovah' etc.

Thank you.

You do realize the size of the turd you just stepped in... right?

 

[Jonnah]

If you ask me why people get so upset when somebody says Yeshua instead of Jesus, then I'd say that it sometimes, at least, has to do with their own arrogance or cultural bigotry. I use the name Jesus regularly, but if I was witnessing to a Jew, then I'd more than likely refer to Him as Yeshua.

I had a Facebook account for a short while and this conversation reminds me of something that transpired there. An old classmate of mine went on a vicious rant one day because the first two employees whom she questioned about something at a local Walmart only spoke Spanish. She went on and on about how everybody in America ought to be required to speak English and not a foreign language and a whole bunch of other people joined her in her crusade. When I politely reminded them all that English was imported here from England, they turned into a torch carrying mob who wanted to lynch me. Same mentality, different soapbox.

I have to agree with you there. I have witnessed similar situations. It's sad if you ask me. If only we could see past some of our differences and see that we all serve and worship the ONE TRUE KING, whether you call him Yeshua or Jesus.

 

[Jonnah]

I've been quiet for longer than I'm comfortable with. (I am very chatty, so any quiet is uncomfortable for me. lol) But, just want to give you a heads-up. He's going to go round and round as long as you're willing to round-and-round with him. No problems if you want to, but just giving you a heads-up how long he'll keep this up.

I was kind of getting that feeling lol. But thought I'd give him a fair chance at explaining how he arrived at his conclusion

 

[Jonnah]

You did not. Now you're way out of bounds. You did not. Paste it. You are distorting the facts. You want to put out your "holier than thou" attitude, then you make a sucker punch. It ain't going to stand. You posted a link. You said you couldn't explain it. So you posted a link. You hadn't begun to explain it. You bailed out as soon as you read my rebuttal to your "function of Hebrew, English is abstract." Those are not explanations and they are relative, but you supplied no referent.

Your holier than thou attitude came out right from the get go. It did.

Then you land this sucker punch. You'd better have some facts, or I'm done with you. And that for my own good.

Brother!

Well I'm sorry you feel I have a holier than thou attitude. I am also sorry that leading you to some useful information to help you in understanding where you erred is something you find offensive. On the contrary, I did not bail on the subject I merely pointed you to the facts by some one more educated than you or I on the subject. If you can not accept that you are wrong by the account of an expert then that is your issue to deal with. Next time your pastor quotes any sources or recommends any work by an expert...I assume you'll have the same attitude? I personally have no problem with people pointing me to useful sources of information if it will help me understand a subject in which I am by no means an expert. You still have not told me why it is you refuse to read the information I linked you to? Or how it is not useful or relevant to what we are talking about? I just don't follow your logic. You want facts? ...pretty sure that source is full of facts that you can gobble up if you cared to, but it seems you are content with arguing and not in becoming informed.

God Bless

 

[hind_let_loose]

I think a lot of it has to do with people that have been wrongly convinced that it's acceptable and even mandatory.

I think you're right. For some (not all), this is an issue of conscience, where they actually feel there is something morally defective in using the non-Hebrew terms. In my experience, people who feel this way often end up with Judaizing tendencies -- celebrating Passover and other Jewish feasts/holidays, etc. It sometimes comes as a package deal. And the real shame is that Christ died, in part, to put an end to this whole Jewish way of doing religion so that the division between Jews and Gentiles would be done away with:

Eph 2:11-22 "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— (12) remember that you [Gentiles--HLL] were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (13) But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (14) For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility (15) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances [Jewish ceremonial law--HLL], that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two [Jew & Gentile--HLL], so making peace, (16) and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. (17) And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. (18) For through him we both [Jew & Gentile--HLL] have access in one Spirit to the Father. (19) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (20) built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, (21) in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. (22) In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

 

[hind_let_loose]

If you ask me why people get so upset when somebody says Yeshua instead of Jesus, then I'd say that it sometimes, at least, has to do with their own arrogance or cultural bigotry. I use the name Jesus regularly, but if I was witnessing to a Jew, then I'd more than likely refer to Him as Yeshua.

I had a Facebook account for a short while and this conversation reminds me of something that transpired there. An old classmate of mine went on a vicious rant one day because the first two employees whom she questioned about something at a local Walmart only spoke Spanish. She went on and on about how everybody in America ought to be required to speak English and not a foreign language and a whole bunch of other people joined her in her crusade. When I politely reminded them all that English was imported here from England, they turned into a torch carrying mob who wanted to lynch me. Same mentality, different soapbox.

I agree that people need to be more charitable to immigrants. But our discussion isn't revolving around immigrants, I don't think. No one is saying that an immigrant who doesn't speak English is sinning by referring to Jesus by their native tongue. The issue, here, is that many competent English-speakers who referred to Jesus as "Jesus" for years or decades have, for whatever reason, decided to start referring to him by some Hebrew name. Why in the world would a competent English speaker refer to Jesus -- in an English conversation -- by a name that English speakers don't generally recognize?

Incidentally, I am an immigrant living in a non-English speaking country. I'm semi-competent at my new language. I refer to Jesus, God, etc., in my new language when carrying on a conversation in that language. "When in Rome..."

 

[Is]

I think you're right. For some (not all), this is an issue of conscience, where they actually feel there is something morally defective in using the non-Hebrew terms. In my experience, people who feel this way often end up with Judaizing tendencies -- celebrating Passover and other Jewish feasts/holidays, etc. It sometimes comes as a package deal. And the real shame is that Christ died, in part, to put an end to this whole Jewish way of doing religion so that the division between Jews and Gentiles would be done away with:

Eph 2:11-22 "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— (12) remember that you [Gentiles--HLL] were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (13) But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (14) For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility (15) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances [Jewish ceremonial law--HLL], that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two [Jew & Gentile--HLL], so making peace, (16) and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. (17) And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. (18) For through him we both [Jew & Gentile--HLL] have access in one Spirit to the Father. (19) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (20) built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, (21) in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. (22) In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

Absolutely Brother, uh, or is that sister? I have read on sites where they say God will not hear your prayers unless you pray in the name of Yeshua.

 

[Galahad]

Well I'm sorry you feel I have a holier than thou attitude. I am also sorry that leading you to some useful information to help you in understanding where you erred is something you find offensive. On the contrary, I did not bail on the subject I merely pointed you to the facts by some one more educated than you or I on the subject. If you can not accept that you are wrong by the account of an expert then that is your issue to deal with. Next time your pastor quotes any sources or recommends any work by an expert...I assume you'll have the same attitude? I personally have no problem with people pointing me to useful sources of information if it will help me understand a subject in which I am by no means an expert. You still have not told me why it is you refuse to read the information I linked you to? Or how it is not useful or relevant to what we are talking about? I just don't follow your logic. You want facts? ...pretty sure that source is full of facts that you can gobble up if you cared to, but it seems you are content with arguing and not in becoming informed.

God Bless

Present your answer. More falsehoods. Who's your ghost writer?

 

[Willie-T]

Didy's from the Netherlands.

if you're using chrome, you can right-click on the flag and search google for the image. may need to add "flag" to the search string

If you are using IE, you can do the same thing. Right-Click the flag, then click on <PROPERTIES>. The name of the country should then show up.

 

[Jonnah]

Present your answer. More falsehoods. Who's your ghost writer?

Please address the questions or it is pointless to continue this conversation. We are not here to one-up each other. If some one presents you with useful information in the form of linking to an expert article and you refuse to read it and hold steady to your own opinion...it shows an element of pride. So again I ask...why do you have such a problem with reading something that may instruct you on the subject you have undertaken?

 

[hind_let_loose]

Absolutely Brother, uh, or is that sister?....

Brother.

 

[dcontroversal]

Meant dccontroversal. Even his name is controversial!

You got that right brother HAHA...I freely admit it

 

[Stephen63]

Jesus, Yeshua, Jehoshua, etc..... Using all the names doesn't make us any better a christian, neither does it make us any worse.

Since the gain/loss is zero, who cares?

We know it's true that using a particular name to be super-spiritual is rather hypocritical..... the real problem is we don't know who's doing it for that reason..... just like don't know who's using the name "Jesus" to do the same thing.

2 Timothy 2:22-26 (NASB) [SUP]22 [/SUP]Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, [SUP]25 [/SUP]with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Titus 3:8-9 (NASB) [SUP]8 [/SUP]This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

So please..... let's put all our knat strainers in the trash can.