The Rapture

[Is]

When you see someone obsessed over the trib/wrath dimension they are prob what we used to call mid trib

I'm kinda leaning that way too. I think what Jesus referred to in Matt.24:8 as the "beinning of sorrows" is really a time of tribulation but not the Great Tribulation. And I really think we have been in a time of sorrows for a long time. There has always been wars and rumors of wars and the such for many years, maybe WWI really kicked it into gear.

So the saints will see some form of tribulation in the first half of the 70th week but not after the abomination of desolation appears in the second half of the 70th week. So may be mid-trib rapture?

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

I have never needed the wrath,trib dimension to defend pretrib. I feel that argument is a flyspeck.it is mid tribe and postribs that bring it up.
The 7yr GT is brought in 2phases,with the 2nd more intense.
How anyone CAN look at the 4horsemen as non judgement from heaven is beyond me

I was only really directing those first 2 or 3 sentences of that post to you, but didn't know how to emphasize that better.

The rest was just pertinent to the thread in general.

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

I'm kinda leaning that way too. I think what Jesus referred to in Matt.24:8 as the "beinning of sorrows" is really a time of tribulation but not the Great Tribulation. And I really think we have been in a time of sorrows for a long time. There has always been wars and rumors of wars and the such for many years, maybe WWI really kicked it into gear.

So the saints will see some form of tribulation in the first half of the 70th week but not after the abomination of desolation appears in the second half of the 70th week. So may be mid-trib rapture?

See, I totally agree with this. That's why I feel that it's so significant to point out all the verses that contradict Pre-Trib BECAUSE I feel there IS a chance the Trib has possibly already begun.

There are many things that take place on the planet that we, in America at least, do not get served to us as front page news. Therefore, it's possible that many specific signs are being missed by those who might tend to recognize them otherwise.

This is another example of a scenario that would benefit the enemy due to its success in keeping Christians' spiritual guard down and allowing them to live in unholy ways believing that the end is nowhere near.

Yes, I agree that we should live every day as if Jesus is coming immediately, but many get caught up in the monotonies of life and inevitably begin to slack.

 

[Is]

The thing is, people have to remember that the great tribulation is not about the church, it's about Israel.

If we go to prophecy Daniel 12:1b......"and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation" is bascily what Jesus said: .............."For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world" Matt.24:21

"At that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book". Daniel 12b


"Thy people" is referring to Israel not the Church. Rev.9:20a says: "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented no of the works of their hands. It's a scene of unrepentent people not saints. v.21......."Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

In Rev.11 the two witnesses lay dead in the street "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 

[Is]

See, I totally agree with this. That's why I feel that it's so significant to point out all the verses that contradict Pre-Trib BECAUSE I feel there IS a chance the Trib has possibly already begun.

There are many things that take place on the planet that we, in America at least, do not get served to us as front page news. Therefore, it's possible that many specific signs are being missed by those who might tend to recognize them otherwise.

This is another example of a scenario that would benefit the enemy due to its success in keeping Christians' spiritual guard down and allowing them to live in unholy ways believing that the end is nowhere near.

Yes, I agree that we should live every day as if Jesus is coming immediately, but many get caught up in the monotonies of life and inevitably begin to slack.

Just read Jesus' words: ....."For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." Matt.24:7

You know you've seen famine in the African countries on TV. About 10 years ago I remember hearing about a tornado that happened in downtown London on the news, but, they just mentioned it once and didn't make a big deal out of it.

 

[Is]

Dec.7, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXCfBUuyhEk

 

[popeye]

See, I totally agree with this. That's why I feel that it's so significant to point out all the verses that contradict Pre-Trib BECAUSE I feel there IS a chance the Trib has possibly already begun.

There are many things that take place on the planet that we, in America at least, do not get served to us as front page news. Therefore, it's possible that many specific signs are being missed by those who might tend to recognize them otherwise.

This is another example of a scenario that would benefit the enemy due to its success in keeping Christians' spiritual guard down and allowing them to live in unholy ways believing that the end is nowhere near.

Yes, I agree that we should live every day as if Jesus is coming immediately, but many get caught up in the monotonies of life and inevitably begin to slack.

That's why I feel that it's so significant to point out all the verses that contradict Pre-Trib

OK.here is whats wrong with a midtrib theory;
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

See those verses? Nothing about a church or saint right? JUST JEWS ARE PROTECTED.

Now,factor in the fact that the AC all the saints w/o the mark RIGHT AWAY.

The innumerable number of beheaded saints is there,IN HEAVEN,RIGHT AWAY.

Now ask the $1000 question. WHEN IS THE TIME OF THE GENTILES FULFILLED////WHAT IS JACOBS TROUBLE???


Mid trib has many many problems.

 

[popeye]

I'm kinda leaning that way too. I think what Jesus referred to in Matt.24:8 as the "beinning of sorrows" is really a time of tribulation but not the Great Tribulation. And I really think we have been in a time of sorrows for a long time. There has always been wars and rumors of wars and the such for many years, maybe WWI really kicked it into gear.

So the saints will see some form of tribulation in the first half of the 70th week but not after the abomination of desolation appears in the second half of the 70th week. So may be mid-trib rapture?

Not really because the AC wastes no time killing those w/o the mark. And that is early into the trib.

Think about it. Those 5 foolish virgins are left behind. Not a single one will take the mark. They KNOW WHAT THE PRICE IS....THEY WATCHED THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS GET SNATCHED.

It ABSOLUTELY can not be anything but a pretrib rapture.

 

[popeye]

You are right He acts before and not after, the problem is that He calls us to Him (gathering/rapture) before His wrath is poured out not before tribulation.

No scripture in the bible says believers will escape the persecution from the man of sin.
They say we are not appointed to God's wrath that is poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation, not during !!!

Again the bible says the man of sin is given 1,260 days to carry out his agenda, but in the book of Daniel it mentions 1,290 and 1,335 days. Why, because those extra 30 and then following 45 days is for Armageddon and God's wrath.

No scripture in the bible says believers will escape the persecution from the man of sin.
They say we are not appointed to God's wrath that is poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation, not during !!!

Uh sorry but there are 2 that do.

Besides that,it says EMPHATICALLY that every man,woman,child,both bond and free DO TAKE THE MARK OR DIE.

So,this destroys the argument you made.
You won't look at it or admit it,but it destroys all theories EXCEPT TRETRIB.

 

[popeye]

You are right He acts before and not after, the problem is that He calls us to Him (gathering/rapture) before His wrath is poured out not before tribulation.

No scripture in the bible says believers will escape the persecution from the man of sin.
They say we are not appointed to God's wrath that is poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation, not during !!!

Again the bible says the man of sin is given 1,260 days to carry out his agenda, but in the book of Daniel it mentions 1,290 and 1,335 days. Why, because those extra 30 and then following 45 days is for Armageddon and God's wrath.

has nothing to do with armageddon.

You literally made that up.

 

[popeye]

Yes but pay very close attention to Matthew 24:29 for it says, "Immediately after the tribulation"..........

Be sure to quote it properly,that angels gather,NOT JESUS,and they are NOT gathered from earth,BUT GATHERED FROM HEAVEN.

Good point,and yes it is a pretrib rapture and a postrib return.

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

I just can't agree about the widely held belief that the Bible is written only to the Israelties/Jews in some places or that the rapture is just for Israel. That's a slippery slope, to me, just like saying that only certain parts of the Bible are true. Once you head down that road, every single verse becomes open to being "only for them & not for us" or "that's not true, but this part is." And it just simply doesn't fit with everything I, me personally, have seen, read, studied, etc.

And, if God IS intending anything only for Israel, his beloved, then, to me, He is speaking of those He has predestined for salvation, those he specifically foreknew before the creation of the world. Not to a specific race of people or their DNA/genetic descendants.

The elect are those for whom God has done/is doing everything for. They are whom He actually had the Bible written for, they are those to whom He sends his messages of love and hope and warning. When He mentions descendants of Abraham or Israel as His special people, I believe He's referring to the elect which are of many PHYSICAL races, ethnics, but of only one SPIRITUAL race. They are all those who truly have the Holy Spirit. Many of the things God says and does that people get confused are coming from a very SPIRITUAL perspective. Not a physical, fleshly, earthy one.

The lost, the heathen, those who will NEVER be able to hear the truth or be saved no matter what, are of no concern to Him because He knows they are already dead, spiritually, for they will never turn to Him with all their hearts, minds and strength. I believe He loves all people, but knows who will ultimately choose life and who will choose death.

Therefore, the only reason whatsoever to evangelize and get the Word of God out there to the world at all is to wake up those whom He foreknew, whom He has predestined for salvation and whom He plans to gather to bring home to Himself so that He can enjoy us.

He made us, not to be mindless slaves or robots programmed to worship and honor Him, but to, by our own will and through much hardship and tribulation, ultimately choose to love Him and be in awe of His majesty and His ability to love us and all His creation. This has been a process of sanctification, to purify us and to test our resolve in whether we will choose the higher things of the Spirit and of God or the lower things of the body and the senses.

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

Be sure to quote it properly,that angels gather,NOT JESUS,and they are NOT gathered from earth,BUT GATHERED FROM HEAVEN.

Good point,and yes it is a pretrib rapture and a postrib return.

Don't forget about Mark 13:27

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

 

[Is]

I just can't agree about the widely held belief that the Bible is written only to the Israelties/Jews in some places or that the rapture is just for Israel. That's a slippery slope, to me, just like saying that only certain parts of the Bible are true. Once you head down that road, every single verse becomes open to being "only for them & not for us" or "that's not true, but this part is." And it just simply doesn't fit with everything I, me personally, have seen, read, studied, etc.

And, if God IS intending anything only for Israel, his beloved, then, to me, He is speaking of those He has predestined for salvation, those he specifically foreknew before the creation of the world. Not to a specific race of people or their DNA/genetic descendants.

The elect are those for whom God has done/is doing everything for. They are whom He actually had the Bible written for, they are those to whom He sends his messages of love and hope and warning. When He mentions descendants of Abraham or Israel as His special people, I believe He's referring to the elect which are of many PHYSICAL races, ethnics, but of only one SPIRITUAL race. They are all those who truly have the Holy Spirit. Many of the things God says and does that people get confused are coming from a very SPIRITUAL perspective. Not a physical, fleshly, earthy one.

The lost, the heathen, those who will NEVER be able to hear the truth or be saved no matter what, are of no concern to Him because He knows they are already dead, spiritually, for they will never turn to Him with all their hearts, minds and strength. I believe He loves all people, but knows who will ultimately choose life and who will choose death.

Therefore, the only reason whatsoever to evangelize and get the Word of God out there to the world at all is to wake up those whom He foreknew, whom He has predestined for salvation and whom He plans to gather to bring home to Himself so that He can enjoy us.

He made us, not to be mindless slaves or robots programmed to worship and honor Him, but to, by our own will and through much hardship and tribulation, ultimately choose to love Him and be in awe of His majesty and His ability to love us and all His creation. This has been a process of sanctification, to purify us and to test our resolve in whether we will choose the higher things of the Spirit and of God or the lower things of the body and the senses.

If your addressing me, I never said that God only wrote the Bible just to Israelites/Jews and the rapture is only for Israel. The Church is Spiritual and Israel is earthly.

If enough of the Jews had believed in Jesus Christ at the time, He would have executed all the divine covenants with Israel, establishing then and there the promised kingdom of God on earth. But Jewish rejection of the King postponed the kingdom of God on earth (Matt.23:37-39).

Jesus prophesied the future of Israel in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24-25). In this discourse He painted a vivid picture of Israel's ultimate tribulation and His own return to deliver His people and fulfill the remaining four conditional covenants in His millenial reign.

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

If your addressing me, I never said that God only wrote the Bible just to Israelites/Jews and the rapture is only for Israel. The Church is Spiritual and Israel is earthly.

If enough of the Jews had believed in Jesus Christ at the time, He would have executed all the divine covenants with Israel, establishing then and there the promised kingdom of God on earth. But Jewish rejection of the King postponed the kingdom of God on earth (Matt.23:37-39).

Jesus prophesied the future of Israel in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24-25). In this discourse He painted a vivid picture of Israel's ultimate tribulation and His own return to deliver His people and fulfill the remaining four conditional covenants in His millenial reign.

It was this sentence of yours that sparked that thought and then I just basically over-elaborated.

The thing is, people have to remember that the great tribulation is not about the church, it's about Israel.

I have heard others, as well as radio & church pastors, etc., say things like what I referred to in those first few sentences of my post in question.

Wasn't necessarily all addressed to you, but to inform the many others who are reading these threads as well, who may have heard people say these things and not known what the Bible states about the matter.

 

[Is]

It was this sentence of yours that sparked that thought and then I just basically over-elaborated.



I have heard others, as well as radio & church pastors, etc., say things like what I referred to in those first few sentences of my post in question.

Wasn't necessarily all addressed to you, but to inform the many others who are reading these threads as well, who may have heard people say these things and not known what the Bible states about the matter.

Who is Jesus speaking to in the Olivet Discourse?

 

[mpaper345]

I believe there will be a resurrection of the saints,which the Bible says the dead shall rise first,and then those that are alive shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air,and forever be with the Lord.

But will they be caught up to meet the Lord but not go up to heaven,but be on earth with Jesus,and rule for 1000 years,and then move to the New Jerusalem.

Or will they be caught up to meet the Lord and go to heaven and not come back,but move right to the New Jerusalem.

Or will they be caught up and go to heaven,and then come back with Jesus and rule for 1000 years,and then go to the New Jerusalem.

I believe the saints will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air,and go to heaven where they will receive their glorified body.Then God's wrath is poured out upon the people that took the mark after the 7 years tribulation period,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is part of the wrath of God,which is the world going against Israel,and Jesus will come back with the saints,and fight the world and save Israel.Jesus and the saints will rule over one sixth of the world that fought against Israel for 1000 years.The devil is bound for 1000 years,and the reason for this is that the people that God spared so Jesus and the saints can rule over them still are in trouble,because they took the mark and fought against Israel,so God causes the devil to be bound for 1000 years,and lets him loose to deceive the people that Jesus and the saints rule over,and they will go against Jesus and the saints,and then that is when God deals with them,and then the saints will go to the New Jerusalem.

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

God's purpose is to gather all nations together,all the people that do not love God and followed the beast kingdom,to fight against Israel,which is the battle of Armageddon,then God will go forth and fight against those nations,as when He fought in the day of battle,when He protected Israel from their enemies.


[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:1-5).

The Bible says when God comes back the saints are with Him,which Jesus when on the mount of Olives before He was ascended up He told the Jews that how he goes up from the mount of Olives,He will come back in like manner,which Jesus will come back with the saints,and fight the world.

Then the Bible talks of the millennial reign of Christ,in which the people that God spared have to go up from year to year to worship the Lord,and to keep the feast of tabernacles,and in the day there shall be one LORD and His name one,which means there will be no false religions,or false gods,but God will be the only one recognized.

The Bible says concerning the 5th seal that there are souls under the altar awaiting their fellowservants and brethren to be with them.The Bible says to die is to be present with the Lord,but I do not believe they have their glorified body yet,but all saints will receive their glorified body,when the dead rise first,and then that remain and alive go up,to meet the Lord in thr air,and so be with the Lord forever.

So I believe that the saints will be caught up to be with Jesus,and go to heaven and receive their glorifed body,and God's wrath will be poured upon the heathen,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,and Jesus will come back with the saints and fight the world that fought against Israel.Then the millennial reign of Christ,then the New Jerusalem.

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

Who is Jesus speaking to in the Olivet Discourse?

Why don't we play it this way, you tell me all the reasons that you believe Jesus is speaking to Israel in the Olivet Discourse and I will tell you all the reasons you are mistaken.

That'll save us both a lot of time.

With all due respect, of course.

 

[Willie-T]

Why don't we play it this way, you tell me all the reasons that you believe Jesus is speaking to Israel in the Olivet Discourse and I will tell you all the reasons you are mistaken.

That'll save us both a lot of time.

With all due respect, of course.

Good answer. And I'd say the appropriate respect was given.

 

[pottersclay]

I was watching my wife at the public market as she was shopping for some fresh fruits. At the end of the display where she was shopping a argument broke out between several people. I knew this would escalate so I quickly grabbed my wife to get her out of harms way because I loved her and won't want to see her hurt. As I predicted the argument did escalate into a big knock out drag out fight. She was so grateful to me for getting her out of there. I told her "just doing what any husband would do for his darling bride.