Departure From Oblivion!

[KennethC]

So you are convinced that we only need to live by just part of God's word then?

Again the scripture man should not live by bread alone but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God does not mean we are to continue to obey everything in the bible.

We rightly divide the word and apply it what its purpose served, and the Mosaic laws served their purpose to us by showing us our transgressions and need for a Savior to bring us to Christ.

Once you come to Christ in the faith you are now lead by the Spirit and are no longer under the bondage of the law to keep its ordinances or die.

The only people that the law is still in effect for are those who have not come to Christ yet, as what they say they say to those who are under it.

Are you under grace or are you under the law ???

You can not serve and be under both of them, as the law brought forth death but the Lord through faith through grace brought life !!!

 

[just-me]

Nobody is saying the words have the same meaning.

However the Mosaic laws are part of the Old Covenant that was made at Mount Sinai, which is called the bond woman.

The reason Apostle Paul calls this covenant the bondwoman is because the laws did not set people free, they instead held people under ordinances for their sins and therefore brought death because the flesh is to weak to keep the laws.

The new covenant that we are under is called the free woman, because the Lord brought a better way to live under grace by faith in Him and walking in love. Trying to separate the Mosaic laws out of the old covenant completely contradicts the many places the NT calls those laws being under bondage.

The reason the 10 Commandments are still transferred over into the NT is because they are not only called written ordinances in the Mosaic laws but they are also called the moral laws of God. Jews separate the main 10 from the rest just as the bible does from the old to the new.

Again as another asked if the contents as you say have not been replaced and believers are still held to do them, then do you still do the cleansing rituals, sacrifice animals, and all the other laws ???

If not why and yes I know some where fulfilled by the Lord on the cross, and I have heard the faulty argument that the temple no longer exists so please do not use that ???

Because the Jews are planning on rebuilding the temple and when this gets done as scripture says it will, are you going to override the Lords sacrifice to return to sacrificing animals ? Why or why not ???

The bondwoman has no inheritance with the free woman, meaning the law has no place in a believers life under grace for we are free from the law !!!

Hagar is an allegory, not an analogy. Hagar lived long before mount Sinai.

Rather than continue this superfluous round and round scenario, without any agreement, could you please answer this question with a simple yes or no. Then if we can agree on this one simple thing, we can continue to discuss with some edification. If we cannot, there is no more reason to continue going back and forth like we are suck in a muddy rut.

Post 315

So you are convinced that we only need to live by just part of God's word then?

 

[BarlyGurl]

That "get out of stoning for breaking the law given to Moses BY GOD concerning adultery" ticket should seemed handy for some woman out there.


But, how does that change the Law? And the weight thereof (which was lifted concerning the adulterous woman) And I'm sure PLENTY of Christians, including scholars who have not only read and studied this in the limited English but the original languages and cultures as well, also believe it's a "get out of hell" ticket. That's kinda what it is, cause you have "no chance in hell" of avoiding it otherwise by following the Law.

I have been guilty of this and I do try to avoid such, but it is spiritually childish to accuse another Christian of not being learned or taking their faith seriously because they disagree with you. And yet no one on here proclaiming a return to the Law has actually LAID OUT what that would look like and HOW Christians should go about doing this.

Unless it simply means "Agree with me."


Well, let's just go ahead and judge the intentions and hearts of people because they disagree with us! People we never even met personally! Forget about that whole "man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart" law in the OT somewhere...



I sympathize with frustration due to complacency and apathy, but you know, someone CAN believe in a separation between the OT and the NT and STILL practice their faith and grow in sanctification. Millions do this every day. Some persecuted Christians do this WITHOUT A BIBLE... you know, cause the ones they had were burned, if they owned one to begin with.

I'll pose the question I already have, I think twice now on this thread:

"Return to the Law" means WHAT? "Return" would indicate a change should take place in the Church - what is that change? Besides "obeying the Law," (plenty of laws and guides for Christians in the NT, yet funny there's no call to return to any of these that broken all the time in the Church, like divorce) and saying "yeah, you're right..." besides this, how do you divide the laws between spiritual and literal application?

"Sacrificing lambs just don't apply!" someone said. Why doesn't it? Is it really that hard to get a lamb and sacrifice it? Because of our culture? Liberal Christians have made the same argument concerning homosexaulity. "Our culture is changing, different time in history, it just doesn't apply anymore." (I'm not stating an opinion, just an example.) Well, if the Law of homosexuality still applies, but sacrificing doesn't, where is that distinction? (I'm aware of Romans 1, I HAVE read Scripture, but in this thread the Law seems to be confined to the OT in where to find it.)

What will this "return to the Law" look like, if the Church did this? How does that change worship? How does that change everyday life of the Christian?

Jamie, I appreciate that you have made an effort to inquire for clarification. Your post appears to be directly addressing me and while I DO want to give a proper response... I have other responsibilities today and must wait to return to this later. K?
In short, I think a simple answer is that this thread is about SPIRITUAL LAWS and that every man is living by them whether AWARE or not. The simplest example would be Shosh's example of her garden... which I concur having PROVEN IT myself... yet been dismissed, mocked and ridiculed over and over for even suggesting it is something we ought to KNOW.

 

[KennethC]

What does these words mean to you:

"These were shadows of the things to come"

 

[KennethC]

Jamie, I appreciate that you have made an effort to inquire for clarification. Your post appears to be directly addressing me and while I DO want to give a proper response... I have other responsibilities today and must wait to return to this later. K?
In short, I think a simple answer is that this thread is about SPIRITUAL LAWS and that every man is living by them whether AWARE or not. The simplest example would be Shosh's example of her garden... which I concur having PROVEN IT myself... yet been dismissed, mocked and ridiculed over and over for even suggesting it is something we ought to KNOW.

In response to spiritual laws I would agree with you on that aspect, but those spiritual laws are not the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws. The 10 Commandments are in those spiritual laws as I can show you multiple places they are upheld in the NT. However the rest of the written ordinances I can show you in scripture where they are not kept, changed, or completely done away except for those who still transgress those ways as they are still under the law.

 

[just-me]

"Sacrificing lambs just don't apply!" someone said. Why doesn't it? Is it really that hard to get a lamb and sacrifice it? Because of our culture? Liberal Christians have made the same argument concerning homosexaulity. "Our culture is changing, different time in history, it just doesn't apply anymore." (I'm not stating an opinion, just an example.) Well, if the Law of homosexuality still applies, but sacrificing doesn't, where is that distinction? (I'm aware of Romans 1, I HAVE read Scripture, but in this thread the Law seems to be confined to the OT in where to find it.)

What will this "return to the Law" look like, if the Church did this? How does that change worship? How does that change everyday life of the Christian?

Just a short comment to your post. We all must keep in mind that the Levitical priesthood no longer exists. It is now the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. That doesn't mean God had to make another plan from the beginning of time, but that change was always in the plan since the beginning of time. Yes times have changes, but God hasn't. We should be seeing that Jesus came to change us rather than His own Father's words. We we seem to have more consideration on changing God's law rather than be concentrate on obedience and growing in faith and grace by letting the word of God kill the sin. There is nothing in the Gospels that says any different. John 3:16

Acts 24:14 (Paul's words)
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

 

[just-me]

Again the scripture man should not live by bread alone but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God does not mean we are to continue to obey everything in the bible.

We rightly divide the word and apply it what its purpose served, and the Mosaic laws served their purpose to us by showing us our transgressions and need for a Savior to bring us to Christ.

Once you come to Christ in the faith you are now lead by the Spirit and are no longer under the bondage of the law to keep its ordinances or die.

The only people that the law is still in effect for are those who have not come to Christ yet, as what they say they say to those who are under it.

Are you under grace or are you under the law ???

You can not serve and be under both of them, as the law brought forth death but the Lord through faith through grace brought life !!!

I'll keep asking you this question so we can stop the ridiculousness please. It's not hard. I'm talking about what God said, not Biblical history.

So you are convinced that we only need to live by just part of God's word then?

 

[KennethC]

I'll keep asking you thins so we can stop the ridiculousness please. It's not hard.

Who is the one being ridiculous ???

You are the one who is trying to make Matthew 4:4 say we have to still obey all 613 written ordinances.

I explained in biblical standards what that scripture really means and you rejected it to still place a faulty question over me that I have already answered.

We use the parts of the Word of God that does not apply in the faith of Christ for the purpose they were for, and for insight and instruction on teaching the other aspects to those who have not yet come to the faith or to those who are new to help them mature.

If a person is still bond by the law to try and keep it then they are still in the flesh and carnal sold under sin, and not walking by the Spirit !!!


You do realize there are parts of God's word that was for physical Israel and physical Jews only ???

 

[just-me]

Who is the one being ridiculous ???

You are the one who is trying to make Matthew 4:4 say we have to still obey all 613 written ordinances.

I explained in biblical standards what that scripture really means and you rejected it to still place a faulty question over me that I have already answered.

We use the parts of the Word of God that does not apply in the faith of Christ for the purpose they were for, and for insight and instruction on teaching the other aspects to those who have not yet come to the faith or to those who are new to help them mature.

If a person is still bond by the law to try and keep it then they are still in the flesh and carnal sold under sin, and not walking by the Spirit !!!


You do realize there are parts of God's word that was for physical Israel and physical Jews only ???

All I desire is a straight answer please. If your answer continues with explanations that could easily compare with a liberal politician, as has been all the other times , I will take it that your answer is an emphatic no, and then you will be on my ignore list. Hope not, but I want to be edified, not suck in meaningless rhetoric. The answer to this question is the foundation of truth or falsehood. It's yes for truth, and no for falsehood.

So you are convinced that we only need to live by just part of God's word then?

 

[KennethC]

All I desire is a straight answer please. If your answer continues with explanations that could easily compare with a liberal politician, as has been all the other times , I will take it that your answer is an emphatic no, and then you will be on my ignore list. Hope not, but I want to be edified, not suck in meaningless rhetoric. The answer to this question is the foundation of truth or falsehood. It's yes for truth, and no for falsehood.

We live by every word of God as we properly discern and apply them to the purpose they serve !!!

 

[just-us-2]

Who is the one being ridiculous ???

You are the one who is trying to make Matthew 4:4 say we have to still obey all 613 written ordinances.

Where did he (or anyone for that matter) say that we have to obey all 613 written ordinances physically? All I have seen is you and a few others that can only see scripture with a carnal mindset, not one person saying we must physically obey the '613'.

 

[just-me]

We live by every word of God as we properly discern and apply them to the purpose they serve !!!

That answer is in the correct direction. Now is there any part of God's word's (in your opinion) that no longer have any purpose?

 

[Shoshanah]

We live by every word of God as we properly discern and apply them to the purpose they serve !!!

I have been praying about this situation with you and God is not pleased with arguments. There are often several guests reading these threads, particularly the ones that appear to have content where the sincere could learn from them - this does not include threads like 'speak your mind' that have nothing to do with Bible discussion. Guests come into a "Christian" forum to learn and to see if they might want to join. I am not concerned with anyone who wants to just argue or the 'stiffnecked' who refuse to let their man-made doctrines go to at least explore the truth, which you have proven yourself to be. Furthermore, I find myself being dragged into controversy and letting the edifying fall by the way to keep answering you and a few select others. This is wrong. I have asked Adonai's forgiveness for departingfrom the task He gave me, and I am putting you on ignore so I can focus on sharing with and learning from the sincere Christians.
as a new member of CC, I am very disappointed with this.

 

[KennethC]

Where did he (or anyone for that matter) say that we have to obey all 613 written ordinances physically? All I have seen is you and a few others that can only see scripture with a carnal mindset, not one person saying we must physically obey the '613'.

You and a couple others please stop trying to pass that carnal mindset on others such as myself.

Apostle Paul is the one who said trying to keep those laws which puts one under that bondage are the carnal ones.

Apostle Paul also said that what the law says it says to those who are under the law, but we are not under the law for we are under grace. Therefore the law does not say anything to the spiritual mind, those who walk by the Spirit !!!

Please do not throw that term carnal around so loosely like that because that means you are calling those people under the law, and we are not !!!

 

[just-us-2]

You and a couple others please stop trying to pass that carnal mindset on others such as myself.

Apostle Paul is the one who said trying to keep those laws which puts one under that bondage are the carnal ones.

Apostle Paul also said that what the law says it says to those who are under the law, but we are not under the law for we are under grace. Therefore the law does not say anything to the spiritual mind, those who walk by the Spirit !!!

Please do not throw that term carnal around so loosely like that because that means you are calling those people under the law, and we are not !!!

Is 'presenting ourselves a living sacrifice' a carnal thing? Does not sacrifice have to do with the "law"?
Is "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." a carnal teaching from Paul?
Quit trying to define the "law" as bad because that is the same as saying it is 'illegal'. Use it lawfully: "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully." 1 Timothy 1:8 (NAS)

Sin is condemned - not the law.

Something is wrong if I have to ignore some of my God's words in order to call myself one of His!

 

[ember]

There is, I am positive, a balance that needs to be understood and from that point, lived

There is such deep truth in what God would say that I think something does not want it coming out

God knows, we don't often get it in church

I just really do not have the time right now, but I have given up answering the back and forth...that's a waste of ALL our times!

there is no point to prove yet that has been spoken that outweights the truth of scripture that I just very honestly, do not think anyone has honed the forumula for

(excuse the bad grammer...but I think you get it?)

 

[KennethC]

That answer is in the correct direction. Now is there any part of God's word's (in your opinion) that no longer have any purpose?

Most of the feasts were already fulfilled by the Lord,

The Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, feast of firstfruits, feast of weeks/Pentecost are all fulfilled.

Leaving the feast of trumpets, the day of atonement, feast of tabernacles still to be fulfilled.




The sacrifical laws were fulfilled as Christ was our sacrifice, He took the punishment for us doing away with the curse of the law, and the bible says the purpose of the Mosaic laws was to show us our transgressions and bring us to Christ and after coming to Him we are no longer under the law.

 

[KennethC]

Is 'presenting ourselves a living sacrifice' a carnal thing? Does not sacrifice have to do with the "law"?
Is "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." a carnal teaching from Paul?
Quit trying to define the "law" as bad because that is the same as saying it is 'illegal'. Use it lawfully: "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully." 1 Timothy 1:8 (NAS)

Sin is condemned - not the law.

Something is wrong if I have to ignore some of my God's words in order to call myself one of His!

Presenting oneself as a living sacrifice is in reference to walking properly in the faith by the fruits of the Spirit obeying the gospel of Christ.

By doing this His blood will continue to cover our sins and give us remission for them, so then when we stand before God He will present us without spot or blemish (sinless).

Yes the law is good if a person uses it and speaks on it for the purpose it served in our lives, that is what Paul is telling Timothy.
Not that he has to continue to obey every aspect of it, for it is Apostle Paul himself that multiple times calls the law in written form a spirit of bondage.

The Law is holy because it taught us our transgressions and brought us to Christ for salvation.

The Law does not save, justify, sanctify, or glorify us before God, only faith in Christ can do that !!!

 

[pottersclay]

so let me get into this discussion, I've never debated the law before so if I may......you can squish me at any time.

So ....if I choose to follow the law it cannot save me yet if I break the law I must repent and sacrifice according to the law to establish the right relationship between me and God to continue in a law that won't save me.....correct?

 

[just-me]

Most of the feasts were already fulfilled by the Lord,

The Passover, Feast of unleavened bread, feast of firstfruits, feast of weeks/Pentecost are all fulfilled.

Leaving the feast of trumpets, the day of atonement, feast of tabernacles still to be fulfilled.

The sacrifical laws were fulfilled as Christ was our sacrifice, He took the punishment for us doing away with the curse of the law, and the bible says the purpose of the Mosaic laws was to show us our transgressions and bring us to Christ and after coming to Him we are no longer under the law.

Now we are headed in the right direction. If we celebrate Easter, we are remembering Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread, the feast of tabernacles will be observed during the millennial period, and all it entails concerning the other feasts, but I'll save that for another time.

I agree that the sacrificial laws were fulfilled in Christ. Now the physical Levitical temple animal sacrifices and all those ordinances that pertain are now completed in Christ as a perpetual sacrifice for sin.

Being under the law is condemnation. If we are in Christ we are free from what? Answer: The law of sin and death. That doesn't mean the law vanished, it means our sins vanished in Christ's sacrifice for those who believe, being eliminated by the law.

Now with tongue in cheek, hoping that we don't go back to the same redundant ridiculous rhetoric as before, what has vanished away? Hebrews 8:13

The law is a substantial part of God's word. Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial. That is complete in Christ, but by recognizing the spiritual context of sacrifice on the Old Testament (testimony of God through Levi) we can glorify Christ by that recognition because we are not held liable if we truly believe it is all real. Now it's our turn to reciprocate. Romans 12:1

This is done by recognizing Exodus 20 thru 23 for starters. Those chapters have little if anything to do with the Levitical priesthood or the building of the physical temple even though......

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

It's all spiritual because the law is spiritual (Paul said so [Romans 7:14 Acts 24:14 ]) and "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)