When does the rapture occur?
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P
To me,he was saying something similar to "where there is smoke,there is fire",because it really does not fit any "rature" scenario.
That concept you are bringing forward is the cousin of "the wicked are gathered first",which is completely erroneous.
Also look at the setting. There is ZERO alluded to of a 2nd coming,(on horses),a destroyed earth,stinging scorpions,war,....nothing placing it postrib.
That concept you are bringing forward is the cousin of "the wicked are gathered first",which is completely erroneous.
Also look at the setting. There is ZERO alluded to of a 2nd coming,(on horses),a destroyed earth,stinging scorpions,war,....nothing placing it postrib.
P
I can play it out for all the postribs,thinking the one taken is taken to judgement(which exists only in some teaching,not the word)
It is now the end of the GT,and someone is working in a factory. Wow.that is fantastc that a factory (mill) escaped all the earths' destruction and is making a product to sell (to whom...we can only guess),and suddenly an angry God removes the unsuspecting worker and takes him where????? Oh,wait,of course,where vultures and corpses are!!!!
Dear Lord,what will you guys invent next. That dog will NOT HUNT.
It is now the end of the GT,and someone is working in a factory. Wow.that is fantastc that a factory (mill) escaped all the earths' destruction and is making a product to sell (to whom...we can only guess),and suddenly an angry God removes the unsuspecting worker and takes him where????? Oh,wait,of course,where vultures and corpses are!!!!
Dear Lord,what will you guys invent next. That dog will NOT HUNT.
G
Greetings GaryA,
{ Thank you. Kind greetings to you as well...
}
As a matter of scripture, there is! { No. There is only one 'rapture' event. } Another of the errors made by expositors are the words "First Resurrection." When people read the word "First" their minds interpret it as meaning "Only," which is the error. There are in fact several resurrections that all fall under the banner of first resurrection, that is, there are stages or phases of the first resurrection.
* Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:23)
{ first fruits - yes; first resurrection - no }
* The church, dead and living is next (1 Cor.15:23, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
{ I believe this only happens once. And, it must include all of the Church / Bride. }
* The Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be changed and caught up (Rev.12:5)
{ I believe this is entirely incorrect. }
* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11-12)
{ I believe the two witnesses are raised from the dead "right before" the second coming of Christ and the 'rapture' }
* And finally, the great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)
{ I believe this to be the same 'group' ( same event / timing ) as "only happens once" above. }
Therefore, the term "First resurrection" is meant to differentiate between the stages of resurrections that take place prior to the one which takes place at the end of the thousand years. For those who take part in the resurrection at the end of the thousand years, the second death has power over them.
Who do you think those are who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen are? According to Rev.17:14 and 19:6-8 it is the bride/church who are the called, chosen and faithful followers and who are seen receiving the fine linen, white and clean and therefore are those who are riding on the white horses. If anything, since Rev.19:11-21 shows them following Jesus out of heaven, it would demonstrate that the church will have already been in heaven prior to his returning to the earth to end the age.
{ Thank you. Kind greetings to you as well...
}As a matter of scripture, there is! { No. There is only one 'rapture' event. } Another of the errors made by expositors are the words "First Resurrection." When people read the word "First" their minds interpret it as meaning "Only," which is the error. There are in fact several resurrections that all fall under the banner of first resurrection, that is, there are stages or phases of the first resurrection.
* Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:23)
{ first fruits - yes; first resurrection - no }
* The church, dead and living is next (1 Cor.15:23, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
{ I believe this only happens once. And, it must include all of the Church / Bride. }
* The Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be changed and caught up (Rev.12:5)
{ I believe this is entirely incorrect. }
* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11-12)
{ I believe the two witnesses are raised from the dead "right before" the second coming of Christ and the 'rapture' }
* And finally, the great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)
{ I believe this to be the same 'group' ( same event / timing ) as "only happens once" above. }
Therefore, the term "First resurrection" is meant to differentiate between the stages of resurrections that take place prior to the one which takes place at the end of the thousand years. For those who take part in the resurrection at the end of the thousand years, the second death has power over them.
Who do you think those are who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen are? According to Rev.17:14 and 19:6-8 it is the bride/church who are the called, chosen and faithful followers and who are seen receiving the fine linen, white and clean and therefore are those who are riding on the white horses. If anything, since Rev.19:11-21 shows them following Jesus out of heaven, it would demonstrate that the church will have already been in heaven prior to his returning to the earth to end the age.
I believe that - when Christ comes back ( the next time He comes back ) - He will have with Him the souls of those who have "died in Christ" - who will then be "recombined" with their bodies in the 'rapture' ( including those who "are alive and remain" ) which will be the first thing to occur "when He gets here"...
It is this scenario that is being described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; the end of 1 Corinthians 15:23 is referring to this same event.
The only [ saints ] that come from heaven are the souls of those who have "died in Christ"; these are the "armies" that follow Him from heaven.
~
I would consider the notion of the possibility that "the First resurrection" is for all of the [ spiritually ] living while "the Second resurrection" is for all of the [ spiritually ] dead. Even then - it is not about 'stages' - but rather, simply being 'included' in one or the other. But, as for the moment, I believe that "the First resurrection" is a singular event.
G
Whether you choose to look at it from a view that is pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or whatever -- one thing cannot be avoided -- Christ brings the souls of them who have died in Christ - up until that point in time - with Him to Earth. This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about.
Yet - the scriptures indicate only one 'rapture' event. And, it is described in Matthew 24:29-31 ( 'and they shall gather together his elect' ) as occurring when Christ comes back --- AFTER the [ Great ] tribulation...
Yet - the scriptures indicate only one 'rapture' event. And, it is described in Matthew 24:29-31 ( 'and they shall gather together his elect' ) as occurring when Christ comes back --- AFTER the [ Great ] tribulation...
GaryA,
Matt.24:29-31 is not the resurrection and catching away, as Angels do not resurrect us. Those that the angels are gathering are living people who will have made it through the tribulation/great tribulation. Those that he collects are the wheat related to the parable in Matt.13. Here is some information for everyone to consider regarding this issue:
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[TD="colspan: 3"][h=1]16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation catching away[/h]Written By Kent Crockett, which I totally agree with
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Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah-one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah-the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don't look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus' coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. I believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept "out of" the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation, but the word is "Ek" which means "out of". Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the catching away because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the catching away occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium? If the catching away occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.
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G
Just as there is no "single verse" identifying a pre-trib rapture, neither is there a "single verse" identifying a post-trib rapture. However, there is - in the context of several passages - taken together -- the very clearly indicated truth -- that there is only one "coming back" / return of Christ.
( In the context of my above statement, a pre-trib 'rapture' scenario is "absolutely most definitely" a valid "coming back" / return of Christ. )
Until a person understands this very simple truth, they will not obtain a correct understanding of the End Times Scenario.
The "double-second-coming" idea has no basis in the scriptures; rather, it is an invention from the imagination of man --- inspired by Satan...
The closest thing to a "single verse" illustration of a post-trib rapture that I can think of right now is [ three verses ] --- Matthew 24:29-31.
( In the context of my above statement, a pre-trib 'rapture' scenario is "absolutely most definitely" a valid "coming back" / return of Christ. )
Until a person understands this very simple truth, they will not obtain a correct understanding of the End Times Scenario.
The "double-second-coming" idea has no basis in the scriptures; rather, it is an invention from the imagination of man --- inspired by Satan...
The closest thing to a "single verse" illustration of a post-trib rapture that I can think of right now is [ three verses ] --- Matthew 24:29-31.
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Good evening GaryA,
The problem is the same that it has always been, misinterpretation.
Resurrection and Catching away:
The Lord's decent from heaven to resurrect the dead believers, immediately followed by the living believers being changed into their immortal bodies to meet in the clouds those who will have previously been resurrected, where whole group meets the Lord in the air. From there, according to John 14:1-3, Jesus then takes the whole group back to the Father's house, that where he is we may be also. (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
The Second Coming:
This event is where the Lord literally returns to the earth after God's wrath has been poured out, where he ends the age and establishes his millennial kingdom, as seen in Rev.19:11-21.
At the resurrection and catching away the Lord is not returning to the earth, but will descend above the earth to raise the dead and living in Christ and remove them from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out. In opposition to that, after the end of Daniel's seven years, Christ literally, visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Regarding the above, on the contrary, it is not until people understand that the resurrection and catching away and Christ's return to end the age are two completely different events that they will be able to understand these prophesies. By making these events the same event, people will continue to err in their interpretations.
In conjunction with this, another error that many expositors make is with the words "First Resurrection" found in Rev.20:4. Their error is that they take that word "First" and make it synonymous with the word "Only." So that the resurrection there in Rev.20:4 becomes the "Only" place that the first resurrection takes place, making it a one time event. Again, major problems with putting the church through the wrath of God. The truth is that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection, as follows:
1. Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:22)
2. The resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
3. The Male child/144,000 who are caught up to God and his throne (Rev.12:5)
4. The two Witnesses who are resurrected after 3 1/2 days (Rev.11:11)
5. The Great Tribulation Saints who are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth (Rev.20:4)
The above all fall under the banner of "First Resurrection," making a distinction between the resurrection that takes place prior to the thousand years opposed to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years. The second death has power over those who take part in the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years. The first resurrection is not limited to the resurrection which takes place at Rev.20:4. That phase of the resurrection is only a resurrection of those who will have been beheaded because they kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of and did not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark in their hands or foreheads, which are the great tribulation saints. To further prove the point, there is no mention of a catching away of the living at Rev.20:4, but only a resurrection.
Also, it is the bride/church who is following Jesus out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, bright and clean, which scripture demonstrates that she will receive at the wedding sometime before Christ descends in Rev.19:7-8. This also fits with John 14:1-3 as we will be coming back to earth with the Lord from the Father's house. We are the "Called, chosen and faithful followers" that are shown to be coming back with Christ to the earth as seen in Rev.17:14.
Matthew 24:29-31 that you quoted above is not the resurrection and catching away! This event is when Christ literally returns to the earth to end the age and he sends his angels out to gather the weeds and the wheat. These are people who will have made it alive through God's wrath, the beasts reign, and that entire seven years. But according to the parable of Matt.13:24-30, 36-42, it is the weeds (people of the evil one) who are collected first who are the "one's taken" (collected) by the angels as described in Matt.24:36-41. Furthermore, we are not resurrected by angels as you would be claiming in Matt.24:29-31, but as Jesus said, "In the resurrection they become like the angels of heaven."
I hope this sheds some light on the subject.
Blessings in Christ!
The problem is the same that it has always been, misinterpretation.
Resurrection and Catching away:
The Lord's decent from heaven to resurrect the dead believers, immediately followed by the living believers being changed into their immortal bodies to meet in the clouds those who will have previously been resurrected, where whole group meets the Lord in the air. From there, according to John 14:1-3, Jesus then takes the whole group back to the Father's house, that where he is we may be also. (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
The Second Coming:
This event is where the Lord literally returns to the earth after God's wrath has been poured out, where he ends the age and establishes his millennial kingdom, as seen in Rev.19:11-21.
At the resurrection and catching away the Lord is not returning to the earth, but will descend above the earth to raise the dead and living in Christ and remove them from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out. In opposition to that, after the end of Daniel's seven years, Christ literally, visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Regarding the above, on the contrary, it is not until people understand that the resurrection and catching away and Christ's return to end the age are two completely different events that they will be able to understand these prophesies. By making these events the same event, people will continue to err in their interpretations.
In conjunction with this, another error that many expositors make is with the words "First Resurrection" found in Rev.20:4. Their error is that they take that word "First" and make it synonymous with the word "Only." So that the resurrection there in Rev.20:4 becomes the "Only" place that the first resurrection takes place, making it a one time event. Again, major problems with putting the church through the wrath of God. The truth is that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection, as follows:
1. Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:22)
2. The resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
3. The Male child/144,000 who are caught up to God and his throne (Rev.12:5)
4. The two Witnesses who are resurrected after 3 1/2 days (Rev.11:11)
5. The Great Tribulation Saints who are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth (Rev.20:4)
The above all fall under the banner of "First Resurrection," making a distinction between the resurrection that takes place prior to the thousand years opposed to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years. The second death has power over those who take part in the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years. The first resurrection is not limited to the resurrection which takes place at Rev.20:4. That phase of the resurrection is only a resurrection of those who will have been beheaded because they kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of and did not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark in their hands or foreheads, which are the great tribulation saints. To further prove the point, there is no mention of a catching away of the living at Rev.20:4, but only a resurrection.
Also, it is the bride/church who is following Jesus out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, bright and clean, which scripture demonstrates that she will receive at the wedding sometime before Christ descends in Rev.19:7-8. This also fits with John 14:1-3 as we will be coming back to earth with the Lord from the Father's house. We are the "Called, chosen and faithful followers" that are shown to be coming back with Christ to the earth as seen in Rev.17:14.
Matthew 24:29-31 that you quoted above is not the resurrection and catching away! This event is when Christ literally returns to the earth to end the age and he sends his angels out to gather the weeds and the wheat. These are people who will have made it alive through God's wrath, the beasts reign, and that entire seven years. But according to the parable of Matt.13:24-30, 36-42, it is the weeds (people of the evil one) who are collected first who are the "one's taken" (collected) by the angels as described in Matt.24:36-41. Furthermore, we are not resurrected by angels as you would be claiming in Matt.24:29-31, but as Jesus said, "In the resurrection they become like the angels of heaven."
I hope this sheds some light on the subject.
Blessings in Christ!
P
The rapture is set in a post trib. scene,"after the Trib." Mt.24:29, and a peaceful time, 1 Thess 5:3, the "sudden destruction", 2 Thess 2:1-8 death and vultures. Millions die and the earth is on fire Rev.7:1 with the trumpets and Bowls. Love to all, Hoffco
Still waiting for that elusive verse
"NOPE. Sorry. Not biblical."
P
Not biblical? I just gave you all of the scriptures. How is not biblical? I just showed you the different resurrections and they can't possibly take place at the same time. Bye the way, instead of saying "Nope. Sorry. Not biblical" you are the one that is not being biblical by not refuting what I just presented with out scripture.
So yes,your theory is unscriptural
