The Bible Has Been Translated Too Many Times to be Trusted?
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I believe the Word from Genesis through the final Amen of Revelation. The Holy Spirit teaches all who believe Jesus Christ, however it does not make anyone, not even the most studied, a grammarian with perfect understanding of the original transcripts. Many are not aware of this but there are many words in the Hebrew of which those who are studied have never concluded their definitions.
Of course the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. When I first believed, after the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was reading the Word for the very first time, and when I shared with those who would hear me, many times I would share a part of the writings I had not yet read myself. I would open my mouth and speack, learning from what I was sharing myself. I am certain this has happened to many, if not all who believe. Whan this occurred, it seemed quite natural with the Holy Spirit leading me, but later I realized these experiences, though quite normal with our Father leading us in Jesus, were miracles, gifts, from Him.
Again, our Father is not unable to maintain the truth in many versions of the Word, though words may not suffice therein, the Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God. I believe this; it cannot be proven, but that aspect is not important to me or any believer. It may be proven, but only by faith to the faithful; it is never going to be torn out of the Word. It is a matter of faith.
Jesus Christ will never abandon any of us, not spiritually, and not in his Word led by the Holy Spirit.
Of course the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. When I first believed, after the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was reading the Word for the very first time, and when I shared with those who would hear me, many times I would share a part of the writings I had not yet read myself. I would open my mouth and speack, learning from what I was sharing myself. I am certain this has happened to many, if not all who believe. Whan this occurred, it seemed quite natural with the Holy Spirit leading me, but later I realized these experiences, though quite normal with our Father leading us in Jesus, were miracles, gifts, from Him.
Again, our Father is not unable to maintain the truth in many versions of the Word, though words may not suffice therein, the Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God. I believe this; it cannot be proven, but that aspect is not important to me or any believer. It may be proven, but only by faith to the faithful; it is never going to be torn out of the Word. It is a matter of faith.
Jesus Christ will never abandon any of us, not spiritually, and not in his Word led by the Holy Spirit.
I have had similar occurrences. I'd find myself speaking about things I didn't know about. I would actually stop and say,"I didn't know that" LOL! and continue on speaking. When I went to the original languages I would find those very things just as I said them. I even said things and then found out the translators were leaving those things out, because they disagreed with the text.
I also found corruption of the original text by scribes who over the years included footnotes of other scribes when they were coping. Yes! I Believe the scripture from Genesis to Revelation as well, but I believe there is corruption in those original text and the Holy Spirit reveals it to those who depend upon the Holy Spirit to lead in Truth. So yes I totally believe what you said,"Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God." However, there are many who don't have the Holy Spirit and they believe what they are taught by commentaries. These same people are furious with those who have the Holy Spirit and attack them. These are the Brute Beasts who war against the righteous of God.
I also found corruption of the original text by scribes who over the years included footnotes of other scribes when they were coping. Yes! I Believe the scripture from Genesis to Revelation as well, but I believe there is corruption in those original text and the Holy Spirit reveals it to those who depend upon the Holy Spirit to lead in Truth. So yes I totally believe what you said,"Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God." However, there are many who don't have the Holy Spirit and they believe what they are taught by commentaries. These same people are furious with those who have the Holy Spirit and attack them. These are the Brute Beasts who war against the righteous of God.
Because of my own interest in languages I did study some Hebrew, enough to read the Word. Although I do love languages, and reading the Word in all, the only benefit I may have experienced, like yours, is confirming what the Holy Spirit has already taught me. One of my greatest gifts of knowledge is just how much harm many denominations have done in their varied doctrines.. I even have gone so far as to see them as having disgraced the gospel.
None of this should translate that I believe all members of all denominations are not family in Jesus Christ, but I do firmly believe many are being misled, but those tears, like mine to come will be wiped away by our Father in heaven come His great and glorious day, amen.
None of this should translate that I believe all members of all denominations are not family in Jesus Christ, but I do firmly believe many are being misled, but those tears, like mine to come will be wiped away by our Father in heaven come His great and glorious day, amen.
Yes! That is correct. Much of the OT has not changed and the coping has not interfered with the translation. They found the book of Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls and there was minimal distortion.
The NT is a different story because it was not constructed until 300yrs had passed. At least the Jews had a structure in place [The Sanhedrin] who kept the coping faithful to the letter. There are 4000 grammatical errors in the NT because most who copied it were illiterate. Most were copying what they saw as someone painting a picture. In other words they were dependent upon what their eye saw in the copy process. But none of this shakes my faith in the scripture, because its not really the physical scripture I'm depending on. The Holy Spirit was given to teach and direct us. The real learning takes place in the spirit.
The NT is a different story because it was not constructed until 300yrs had passed. At least the Jews had a structure in place [The Sanhedrin] who kept the coping faithful to the letter. There are 4000 grammatical errors in the NT because most who copied it were illiterate. Most were copying what they saw as someone painting a picture. In other words they were dependent upon what their eye saw in the copy process. But none of this shakes my faith in the scripture, because its not really the physical scripture I'm depending on. The Holy Spirit was given to teach and direct us. The real learning takes place in the spirit.
P
saying the bible is in error and saying someones interpretation of scripture is in error are 2 different things. now you can study the depths of the word of god to get to the truth, or write a more modern version that fits with your own understanding of god, ( as if we were capable of fully understanding god.), but didn't the mormons do that. yeh all that direct revelation as the only witness, well thats not scriptural, and moslems get that to, sounds more like meology to me, but i do agree that often the holy spirit teaches us something that we later find in his word, (2nd witness)
job26:36
King James Bible
Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
job26:36
King James Bible
Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
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Had I seen a punchline there, context that indicated that there was a joke, I wouldn't have stated what I did. If you were indeed joking, then I apologize for jumping the gun. I just didn't see the joke in saying that everyone else is an amateur in comparison to you and your wife. Perhaps we share differing ideas of what a joke is.
Of course the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. When I first believed, after the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was reading the Word for the very first time, and when I shared with those who would hear me, many times I would share a part of the writings I had not yet read myself. I would open my mouth and speack, learning from what I was sharing myself. I am certain this has happened to many, if not all who believe. Whan this occurred, it seemed quite natural with the Holy Spirit leading me, but later I realized these experiences, though quite normal with our Father leading us in Jesus, were miracles, gifts, from Him.
Again, our Father is not unable to maintain the truth in many versions of the Word, though words may not suffice therein, the Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God. I believe this; it cannot be proven, but that aspect is not important to me or any believer. It may be proven, but only by faith to the faithful; it is never going to be torn out of the Word. It is a matter of faith.
Jesus Christ will never abandon any of us, not spiritually, and not in his Word led by the Holy Spirit
Me too re speaking things I know that I don't know, that are confirmed later to be God. I think that is wonderful that in teaching or otherwise ministering we are ministering to ourselves! I have often thought it is good to have an attitude of not knowing anything because then you are in a receptive position when He does speak.
It happens with writing for me, that I will feel a topic gathering momentum and coming to the surface, and then I will start to write usually thinking I am just responding to someone....and then all the relevant scriptures will pile into my mind and I see that there is a teaching there. I have to give it proper attention then and let it flow how the Lord wants it to flow...until it comes to completion.
Now we understand, I hope all do, that when Paul was writing, to Timothy I think, he reminded him to 1pay attention to what you teach (or say), and to learn from it. I believe it goes take heed to what you say. Anyone is welcome to put the exact quote...
Anyway, it is a great praise of God to experience opening the mouth and speaking. When this has occurred with me, it is only after that I realize I have learned something nes, and we are in the Holy Spirit. Nowadays this happens mainly when sharing, but when I had not read all of the Word, it happened, as you have stated C, that I would speak what I had not yet read, and YES, God confirmed it every time by leading me to the Scripture..........He is amazing, humble Alomighty, and al caring. What a Father we have. Thank you Jesus Christ, amen.
Originally Posted by JaumeJ
Of course the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. When I first believed, after the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was reading the Word for the very first time, and when I shared with those who would hear me, many times I would share a part of the writings I had not yet read myself. I would open my mouth and speack, learning from what I was sharing myself. I am certain this has happened to many, if not all who believe. Whan this occurred, it seemed quite natural with the Holy Spirit leading me, but later I realized these experiences, though quite normal with our Father leading us in Jesus, were miracles, gifts, from Him.
Again, our Father is not unable to maintain the truth in many versions of the Word, though words may not suffice therein, the Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God. I believe this; it cannot be proven, but that aspect is not important to me or any believer. It may be proven, but only by faith to the faithful; it is never going to be torn out of the Word. It is a matter of faith.
Jesus Christ will never abandon any of us, not spiritually, and not in his Word led by the Holy Spirit
Me too re speaking things I know that I don't know, that are confirmed later to be God. I think that is wonderful that in teaching or otherwise ministering we are ministering to ourselves! I have often thought it is good to have an attitude of not knowing anything because then you are in a receptive position when He does speak.
It happens with writing for me, that I will feel a topic gathering momentum and coming to the surface, and then I will start to write usually thinking I am just responding to someone....and then all the relevant scriptures will pile into my mind and I see that there is a teaching there. I have to give it proper attention then and let it flow how the Lord wants it to flow...until it comes to completion.
Anyway, it is a great praise of God to experience opening the mouth and speaking. When this has occurred with me, it is only after that I realize I have learned something nes, and we are in the Holy Spirit. Nowadays this happens mainly when sharing, but when I had not read all of the Word, it happened, as you have stated C, that I would speak what I had not yet read, and YES, God confirmed it every time by leading me to the Scripture..........He is amazing, humble Alomighty, and al caring. What a Father we have. Thank you Jesus Christ, amen.
Of course the Holy Spirit teaches us the truth. When I first believed, after the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was reading the Word for the very first time, and when I shared with those who would hear me, many times I would share a part of the writings I had not yet read myself. I would open my mouth and speack, learning from what I was sharing myself. I am certain this has happened to many, if not all who believe. Whan this occurred, it seemed quite natural with the Holy Spirit leading me, but later I realized these experiences, though quite normal with our Father leading us in Jesus, were miracles, gifts, from Him.
Again, our Father is not unable to maintain the truth in many versions of the Word, though words may not suffice therein, the Holy Spirit does seal the truth in those willing to learn of God. I believe this; it cannot be proven, but that aspect is not important to me or any believer. It may be proven, but only by faith to the faithful; it is never going to be torn out of the Word. It is a matter of faith.
Jesus Christ will never abandon any of us, not spiritually, and not in his Word led by the Holy Spirit
Me too re speaking things I know that I don't know, that are confirmed later to be God. I think that is wonderful that in teaching or otherwise ministering we are ministering to ourselves! I have often thought it is good to have an attitude of not knowing anything because then you are in a receptive position when He does speak.
It happens with writing for me, that I will feel a topic gathering momentum and coming to the surface, and then I will start to write usually thinking I am just responding to someone....and then all the relevant scriptures will pile into my mind and I see that there is a teaching there. I have to give it proper attention then and let it flow how the Lord wants it to flow...until it comes to completion.
The problem lies in copying and how its copied. Just follow me! Today we just copy a file on our PC and multiply it by the 1000's if necessary and view it on a screen. Before that it needed to be run by a printing press with ink and paper. Before that there was no printing press and it had to be copied by hand by those who had an education. Before that not many people had a education and were illiterate. The NT was copied by hand, some were literate and others were not. The illiterate were copying the text without understanding what they were copying. This lead to grammatical errors. Then there were the people who could read and write and sometimes they entered their own thoughts into the text. This is how a text can become un-trustworthy. Some scholars today try and weed out the grammatical errors and inserts. Much of the NT is preserved, but there still remains damage from the coping process. But as I said before it has no effect on me, because I rely on the Holy Spirit to give me the corrections in order to understand the totality of the text. Time after time the Holy Spirit has proven what the original language states even though some translators manipulate the text to match their doctrine.
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I'm not sure what this has to do with the trustworthiness of a copied document. I think what would have to be shown is that inherent in the process of translation itself was some mechanism by which copied texts become not-trustworthy.
And you do try to provide just such a mechanism:
Ok. I think that would be obvious to anyone that attended middle school.
Why think that? On what grounds do you think the copiers lacked an education? Someone who knows how to write is considered educated on some level. I mean, granted it's not advanced calculus, but it is education. Besides, how does someone illiterate manage to know how to copy? By definition, being illiterate means you can't read or write.
Illiterate people don't know how to write.
I'm not sure how a grammatical error makes a text "untrustworthy." A grammatical error is simply that - a grammatical error. It really has no bearing on the "trustworthiness" of a text. If I'm reading a history of the Roman Empire, and someone forgot to capitalize an "R" in "Roman," that doesn't mean the whole text is to be thrown out for being untrustworthy.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "entered their own thoughts into the text." How could you possibly know that? Unless you had a trustworthy text to indicate to you where a copier or translator entered their own thoughts into the text, you couldn't confidently do so. But having a trustworthy text to indicate where a copier "entered his own thoughts into the text" would undermine the idea that the process of translating/transmitting a text somehow magically makes it untrustworthy.
I would be curious as to what corrections to the text you think the Holy Spirit has given to you personally.
And you do try to provide just such a mechanism:
Ok. I think that would be obvious to anyone that attended middle school.
Why think that? On what grounds do you think the copiers lacked an education? Someone who knows how to write is considered educated on some level. I mean, granted it's not advanced calculus, but it is education. Besides, how does someone illiterate manage to know how to copy? By definition, being illiterate means you can't read or write.
Illiterate people don't know how to write.
I'm not sure how a grammatical error makes a text "untrustworthy." A grammatical error is simply that - a grammatical error. It really has no bearing on the "trustworthiness" of a text. If I'm reading a history of the Roman Empire, and someone forgot to capitalize an "R" in "Roman," that doesn't mean the whole text is to be thrown out for being untrustworthy.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "entered their own thoughts into the text." How could you possibly know that? Unless you had a trustworthy text to indicate to you where a copier or translator entered their own thoughts into the text, you couldn't confidently do so. But having a trustworthy text to indicate where a copier "entered his own thoughts into the text" would undermine the idea that the process of translating/transmitting a text somehow magically makes it untrustworthy.
I would be curious as to what corrections to the text you think the Holy Spirit has given to you personally.