The Law Debacle Resolved

[atwhatcost]

I prefer some Scripture to prove your point.

I am referring to this Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Chris our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God , but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

AGAIN...If I could "do what Jesus teaches and did" I wouldn't need Jesus. Jesus followed the law perfectly. Jesus fulfilled the law.


Kefa

You ARE doing what Jesus did! Ye are not in the flesh but in the spirit. (Did you like that ye stuff? lol)

Rom. 8: 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[atwhatcost]

The Holy Spirit witnesses to what is true. Even Scripture without the Holy Spirit kills.........As for your running to Paul every time you want to argue some imagined point, keep in mind it is Paul who teaches us all........

Did Pau die on the cross for your sins? Also he asks do you belong to Paul or any of the other apostles? We belong to Jesus, and we learn from God, as is written. If you do not know the Word well enough to know this and allI have shaed is written therein, I am very sorry. God bless you, and please keep on topic.

You are arguing with the solution given. Do you honestly believe we are not to follow Christ's Example as taught in the Word?

Are you suggestion we should not do as Jesus teaches, or do as He did? You may continue pitting Paul against Jesus Christ, but when reading Paul, we see Jesus Christ's gospel and His way should be our way.

Really asking (as opposed to judging), are you saying Paul didn't speak for God? What Paul said that is still in the Bible IS what Jesus said too, since it's all inspired by God. (I suspect we're agreeing, but I'm still checking just to make sure.)

 

[crossnote]

Grace, Law? What about it? How do we resolve it.

KennethC gave me and all a reminder in Just-Me's wonderful thread on PHARISEES.

Here is the solution.

Do what Jesus teaches and did.

If you feel a need to argue this, you need His help right away.

Thank you Just-Me and KennethC..........

OK, when we see you walk on water (what Jesus did) I'll take notice

 

[atwhatcost]

Do as Jesus teaches and what He did.......... Why argue grace without law? How do others not see that Jesus teaches the law with grace?

Blind, deaf and dumb. Stop arguing when it is there in front of our face. Do not defy the Lord's teaching, and do not call profane what is holy.

Stay on topic.

Just so you know... to some on here "stay on topic" is exactly what they do all the time. The point they miss is the topic isn't always about their prove-a-point. They think it is, and, because of that, according to them they are always on topic. To try and dissuade is like trying to fill a full cup.

Speaking from experience. I don't try to fill full cups. I try to pull some away who aren't really buying their cup is full of prove-a-point, but they don't realize they're mixing in with a crowd of prove-a-pointers.

 

[atwhatcost]

The Bible says in Acts 17: 25, “Nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things.”

It really stokes our pride to think that we can do something for God. Yet the truth is that we cannot. Only God can do something for Himself. In His infinite grace, He allows us to participate in what He is doing by expressing His life through us.

God neither wants nor needs us to do anything for Him. God doesn’t need us, He wants us.

Jesus himself was empowered by God.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner” (John 5: 19).


Kefa

So God doesn't "want" us to follow him?

I agree God needs nothing. I don't think he went through all that history leading to the cross because he doesn't want something from some.

 

[just-me]

One must be very careful to understand about God's laws according to the New Covenant, since our Lord Jesus came and died upon the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.

God's laws included ordinances, statutes, commandments, and judgments. What our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross mainly were the 'ordinances' in the law. That involved the things involving blood sacrifices, religious ritual and ceremonial laws, etc. Our Lord Jesus did not nail everything to His cross.

Notice what Apostle Paul taught about God's laws according to The Gospel entrusted with him...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

You're close but no cigar. I agree that we are certainly not saved by the works of the law. That is clearly vain. You err in one point however, because man's self made, hand written ordinances are what God's word speaks against, even though in some scriptures it sounds as if Paul is actually speaking against God's ordinances.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:14

Read Acts 24:14 and you will notice that Paul worshiped by believing all things written in the law. This was not his works, but rather God's works in him by the faith he was given.

God's laws included ordinances, statutes, commandments, and judgments. What our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross mainly were the 'ordinances' in the law.

Think about what God's word reveals by his ordinances, and conclude in your heart that it was given to reveal the enmity that was nailed to the cross and slain. Yes, the Word of God was nailed to the cross but that didn't make Him wrong. The spiritual aspects of the temple ordinances still apply in Christ, Him being the High Priest who will never die. Hebrews 8:13 The physical (flesh/carnal) of those ordinances are gone however.

Ephesians 2:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, "even" (added word not in the original) the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

God didn't speak into existence a wall of partition between Him and us. He revealed to us, by His law, what built the wall of partition called enmity. That''s what was crucified.

God did not say some things that He had to kill later. Neither did God speak into existence sin and death in order to bring life. His law reveals it, not creates it.

 

[atwhatcost]

More perversion of what has been posted..


how many times do people such as you need to be told no child of obedience believes he is earing salvation. Tell me now. How many times?

It is futile responding to the likes of you, constantly throwing these perverse unmentioned tenants into the mix. It is diabolical, and fruitless.
Where in this thread do you see me or any other child of obedience suggesting he is earning salvation?

That is a wicked thing to purport...........wicked. good bye.

Shhhh! She is the one bringing us all together. It really helps if you disparage others and call them "the enemy" while telling you no one is should disparage others and call them "the enemy," doncha know.

(I am snarky sometimes, but at least I'm willing to say when I am snarky. Above was pure snarky.)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Just so you know... to some on here "stay on topic" is exactly what they do all the time. The point they miss is the topic isn't always about their prove-a-point. They think it is, and, because of that, according to them they are always on topic. To try and dissuade is like trying to fill a full cup.

Speaking from experience. I don't try to fill full cups. I try to pull some away who aren't really buying their cup is full of prove-a-point, but they don't realize they're mixing in with a crowd of prove-a-pointers.

I think it's more like trying to fill a cup that has a hole in it.

Prove-a-point... I love it!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And why is one cursed for not keeping the law? Because sin is transgression of the law, which brings forth death. Therefore sin is the element that brings forth the curse of the law, not the law itself. Paul shows the same here....

Romans 7:10-13 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

thanks you just proved me right.

1. Sin (breaking the law) causes death
2. Moses said, cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey ALL the words written. That curse is death

thus the law is the law of death to everyone (except Jesus, who actually had the ability to do this)

Also people need to understand there are 2 spiritual laws at work, not to confuse the law of the spirit of life with the law of sin and death. Paul here shows the divisions and struggles between the two (flesh/ Spirit) in this example...

Romans 7:20-23 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

So again, the law of sin and death is not the same as the law of God and righteousness in Christ Jesus.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of Christ is the law of love, it is called walking in the spirit.

The mosaic law is not the law of love (even though 2 commands of love is inserted into it. meaning it is a part of it, not all of it) It did serve a purpose. We can not love perfectly )the way Jesus did) thus we can not keep the law. which brings A CURSE (death)

Paul said the law is a schoolmaster, we are slaves to the law up until we come to faith, then the law has done its job.

Paul did not then contradict himself and say yes, we are to be under law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The whole law was nullified (abolished).

For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;​

The curse of the law was abolished

Since the law was never given to show us how to be righteous (moral people) that part of the law never had power anyway.

As long as there are unsaved people walking the earth, the law will always have a purpose.

 

[atwhatcost]

One must be very careful to understand about God's laws according to the New Covenant, since our Lord Jesus came and died upon the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.

God's laws included ordinances, statutes, commandments, and judgments. What our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross mainly were the 'ordinances' in the law. That involved the things involving blood sacrifices, religious ritual and ceremonial laws, etc. Our Lord Jesus did not nail everything to His cross.

Notice what Apostle Paul taught about God's laws according to The Gospel entrusted with him...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

No one is saved by following and keeping God's law. We are saved only... by His Grace through His Son's Blood shed upon the cross.

But does that mean God's people no longer need God's laws? Of course not, because it's easy to see how the wicked, etc., are still very much in need of it, because according to Apostle Paul, the wicked is who the law was made for, in order that God's people might have peace and prosper.

According to the prophecy Jacob gave his twelve sons all the way back in Genesis 49, Judah was to be keeper over God's law until "Shiloh" (Christ) comes to gather His Church. And it still is mainly in their hands today, even though many of them have allowed corruptors to creep in among them today that are changing the law and the times.

It's not just the wicked who need it. As Kefa quoted in the end of Romans 7, we're still fleshy. Our flesh still wants to crawl right back into our previously-beloved darkness. We are not perfected in the Law. We can't do it. Even with God in us, we don't do it perfectly, but without it we cannot see what goodness looks like. To me, the law is Jesus' shadow. It's not Jesus, but it's a good outline of what he looks like. And, when we're off doing our own thing, even still, and then realize we slipped off on our own, it is there to tell me which way Jesus is in front of me, when I am so far away I can't actually see him.

We need him all -- his deeds, his spirit, his law to keep us pointed in the right direction -- to God himself.

I think the number one problem on this site is people are looking for the easy way out. "Accept Jesus and I no longer have to worry about anything, including the law. Especially the law." Then they pridefully point at themselves as the example of life in Christ.

This is surface crap, and they think they're doing something wonderful because they're wearing the proper outfit.

But Jesus isn't merely an outfit. To follow him is to follow him down to our core. The reality is we don't! Damn us for daring to say that out loud on this site!

I do not have Jesus down to my core, although he has penetrated to my core. I NEED more of him, because I too can be a hypocrite. The law points me to him. His spirit enables me. He showed me the way. He is the way. Until we can admit that freely without the yabber-jabbers constantly trying to convince us the surface is good enough, there will be division. THE FREAKING SURFACE AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

And because it's not, and they know it, it has become much easier to prove-a-point then deal with that. So the prove-a-pointers gang up and ascend every time some are actually talking seriously about God. But we're supposed to be respecting them for doing that.

Sorry. I never will.

 

[atwhatcost]

HeRosefromtheDead and eternall-grateful,
Just to make life easier on you. If all that talking was done as a response to something I said and you're expecting me to answer you, please save your finger muscles. You're both prove-a-pointers that I've ignored simply to avoid the contention you're always out to cause. I mean, feel free to keep proving your points and insulting anyone who disagrees with you, including me. I'm just letting you know I won't be seeing anything you write.

That might cut down on about 10% of your effort.

 

[crossnote]

Atwc, you seem to be 'proving many points' too today, is that your point?

 

[ember]

Shhhh! She is the one bringing us all together. It really helps if you disparage others and call them "the enemy" while telling you no one is should disparage others and call them "the enemy," doncha know.

(I am snarky sometimes, but at least I'm willing to say when I am snarky. Above was pure snarky.)

I can't bring anyone together

You refuse any correction and are proud to be nasty

Even God won't touch that unless you admit it and turn around

lynn, if you do happen to read this, understand that I forgive you but this behavior of yours is going to have consequences

now she might not see this because I am on ignore...lynn has a campaign on ...a hate filled campaign and she is very angry because I told her she is also called to bring peace

She obviously does not care to do that

 

[ember]

Atwc, you seem to be 'proving many points' too today, is that your point?

her current point is hurting me and attempting to create a false reality of other people

instead, we are seeing the real lynn...the one that is hurt and just won't admit it, so she charges at everyone who tries to help her

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Atwc, you seem to be 'proving many points' too today, is that your point?

lol.. I was not even responding to her.. I thought that was funny, Judged for no reason..

Maybe she was making a pre-emptive attack against something that was never going to come?

 

[just-me]

Just so you know... to some on here "stay on topic" is exactly what they do all the time. The point they miss is the topic isn't always about their prove-a-point. They think it is, and, because of that, according to them they are always on topic. To try and dissuade is like trying to fill a full cup.

Speaking from experience. I don't try to fill full cups. I try to pull some away who aren't really buying their cup is full of prove-a-point, but they don't realize they're mixing in with a crowd of prove-a-pointers.

I think they know they have been found out to the masses. A cover-up is under way.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/123495-lets-talk-about-pharisees.html


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/122303-how-spot-legalist.html


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/123400-ignore-button-abuse-ignorance-not-bliss.html

 

[Karraster]

Grace, Law? What about it? How do we resolve it.

KennethC gave me and all a reminder in Just-Me's wonderful thread on PHARISEES.

Here is the solution.

Do what Jesus teaches and did.

If you feel a need to argue this, you need His help right away.

Thank you Just-Me and KennethC..........

Agreed. Are there any more important words in scripture, than the words of our Redeemer? I say no.
Grace and Law work together as do justice and mercy. Nothing of Almighty should be overlooked, especially His plan for our reconciliation with Him.


"Begotten" of the Almighty have presented their hearts to Him and He has written His laws on our hearts. That's why we love His commandments and guard them/do them. It's not us doing, it's Him in us doing. He has given us a love for Him that we can no longer love the world.


All scripture agrees..our Creator is not divided against Himself.


I used to wonder, 'why antisemitism"? There are many reasons people claim is the answer, often contradicting their own statements. Many reasons, all easily refuted. There is an answer tho. The only answer that makes any sense at all, the "call to Sinai"...the message entrusted to/born by the "Jews". A great many people simply can't cope with being good. The call to "Mt Zion" does not change the significance of Almighty's instructions, both these mountains represent our Creator. It is our hearts that need changing.


If you are grafted into Israel, the world will hate you, even as it hates the "Jews". Jesus said,


"Think not {do not let this enter your mind} that I {Messiah} have come into the world to abolish {do away with/destroy/make null and void} the law or the prophets {Torah/Creators instructions as to how we are to live}. I {Messiah/Jesus/Yeshua} have not come to abolish {repeating ..maybe He knows it needs repeating} but to fulfill {accomplish His purpose/obey Father's will/ The Prophet, spoken of by Moses, the One we must obey, Passover Lamb}.


Brothers and sisters, may Almighty Father bless us and keep us, shine His light on us, and grant us grace to follow His Son, the One we must obey, Holy One of Israel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There are just so much wrong with your words. What an extraordinary false witness.

Agreed. Are there any more important words in scripture, than the words of our Redeemer? I say no.
Grace and Law work together as do justice and mercy. Nothing of Almighty should be overlooked, especially His plan for our reconciliation with Him.

Grace and law are the antithesis of each other.

All scripture agrees..our Creator is not divided against Himself.

But scripture must be rightly divided.

I used to wonder, 'why antisemitism"? There are many reasons people claim is the answer, often contradicting their own statements. Many reasons, all easily refuted. There is an answer tho. The only answer that makes any sense at all, the "call to Sinai"...the message entrusted to/born by the "Jews". A great many people simply can't cope with being good. The call to "Mt Zion" does not change the significance of Almighty's instructions, both these mountains represent our Creator. It is our hearts that need changing.

If you are grafted into Israel, the world will hate you, even as it hates the "Jews". Jesus said,

Wow. Are you really so shameless to bear such false witness of GOD?

If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you. John 15:18​

"Think not {do not let this enter your mind} that I {Messiah} have come into the world to abolish {do away with/destroy/make null and void} the law or the prophets {Torah/Creators instructions as to how we are to live}. I {Messiah/Jesus/Yeshua} have not come to abolish {repeating ..maybe He knows it needs repeating} but to fulfill {accomplish His purpose/obey Father's will/ The Prophet, spoken of by Moses, the One we must obey, Passover Lamb}.

Yes, Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to nullify it's power to condemn us.

For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;​

Brothers and sisters, may Almighty Father bless us and keep us, shine His light on us, and grant us grace to follow His Son, the One we must obey, Holy One of Israel.

Brothers and sisters, stay away from teachings like this and you will be blessed.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

A misquote of 1 John 3:4. Not your fault I'm sure; you just haven't looked deep enough into it. That verse does not say "sin is transgression of the law" in the Greek, but simply "sin is lawlessness". John did not specify what law, so your attempt to define sin as transgressing the law of Moses is presumptuous. Lawlessness is violating the revealed will of GOD.

No misquote, seems you have a problem with the words of God, not mine.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I highlight and underline so people might be able to see the message better.