Should we follow the teachings of the Old Testament?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I didn't know it was only for the Israelites,do you know if thats confirmed anywhere in scripture so I can read it and decide for myself? Oh,don't worry,I'll google it and have a look,thanks anyway

One part that I think shows this quite well is Acts 15. There believing pharisees said believing gentiles must become circumcised and follow the law of Moses to be saved. James said, no, gentiles are saved by grace just like they were, and issued a directive for believing gentiles to follow an incipient form of what is now called the Noahide Laws. These are what Jews believed righteous gentiles must follow because they were not in covenant with GOD to observe its law. Since believing gentiles studied in the synagogues, James ensured that they appeared righteous to their hosts to avoid offending them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

The Jewish Encyclopedia article on Saul of Tarsus states:

According to Acts, Paul began working along the traditional Jewish line of proselytizing in the various synagogues where the proselytes of the gate [e.g., Exodus 20:9] and the Jews met; and only because he failed to win the Jews to his views, encountering strong opposition and persecution from them, did he turn to the Gentile world after he had agreed at a convention with the apostles at Jerusalem to admit the Gentiles into the Church only as proselytes of the gate, that is, after their acceptance of the Noachian laws (Acts 15:1–31)".[15]

The article "New Testament" states:

For great as was the success of Barnabas and Paul in the heathen world, the authorities in Jerusalem insisted upon circumcision as the condition of admission of members into the church, until, on the initiative of Peter, and of James, the head of the Jerusalem church, it was agreed that acceptance of the Noachian Laws — namely, regarding avoidance of idolatry, fornication, and the eating of flesh cut from a living animal — should be demanded of the heathen desirous of entering the Church.[16]

 

[redeemed2014]

One part that I think shows this quite well is Acts 15. There believing pharisees said believing gentiles must become circumcised and follow the law of Moses to be saved. James said, no, gentiles are saved by grace just like they were, and issued a directive for believing gentiles to follow an incipient form of what is now called the Noahide Laws. These are what Jews believed righteous gentiles must follow because they were not in covenant with GOD to observe its law. Since believing gentiles studied in the synagogues, James ensured that they appeared righteous to their hosts to avoid offending them.

That would be true if the bible stopped at Acts 15. The mystery of the secret has not been revealed as of Acts 15:
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Saul of Tarsus was the Pharisee that persecuted Jews that believed in the Lord Jesus Christ until he was saved on the road to Damascus. His conversion to Paul was not till later. You can find the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and by faith and believing in that you are saved not by the law or circumcision.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The law is a work and can only acknowledge sin, it cannot save you.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The gentiles could not be under the law because it was given to the seed of Abraham by Moses through the Abrahamic covenant. Abraham was could not have been under the law because the law was not revealed until Moses after Abraham was dead, so he could not have followed the law but we find that Abraham was still saved why? Because he had faith in God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Through out all of the books of Paul in the New Testament he states that gentiles are under no part of the law. Which does not give gentiles the right to sin because if we shed off the old man (adamic nature) and become the new creature (born again) we will be guided by the Holy Spirit and a Godly Love and we will no longer commit adultery, fornication, idolatry etc. The law is fulfilled by love, and we become circumcised in spirit and not of the flesh because we are not under the covenant

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That would be true if the bible stopped at Acts 15. The mystery of the secret has not been revealed as of Acts 15:
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Saul of Tarsus was the Pharisee that persecuted Jews that believed in the Lord Jesus Christ until he was saved on the road to Damascus. His conversion to Paul was not till later. You can find the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and by faith and believing in that you are saved not by the law or circumcision.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The law is a work and can only acknowledge sin, it cannot save you.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The gentiles could not be under the law because it was given to the seed of Abraham by Moses through the Abrahamic covenant. Abraham was could not have been under the law because the law was not revealed until Moses after Abraham was dead, so he could not have followed the law but we find that Abraham was still saved why? Because he had faith in God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Through out all of the books of Paul in the New Testament he states that gentiles are under no part of the law. Which does not give gentiles the right to sin because if we shed off the old man (adamic nature) and become the new creature (born again) we will be guided by the Holy Spirit and a Godly Love and we will no longer commit adultery, fornication, idolatry etc. The law is fulfilled by love, and we become circumcised in spirit and not of the flesh because we are not under the covenant

Very well said. Do you think what I wrote somehow conflicts with that?

 

[Brother_Don]

Should is a harsh word and not received very well. BTW, what teachings of Old Testament are you talking about?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Christianity was born from Judaism it had to be,jesus was a Jew,so were all his disciples and 99% of the people He ever spoke to were jews,all there religious learning Came from Judaism,are you trying to say that because Jesus was talking to a jewish crowd who followed Judaism then His words mean nothing to Christians? Christians didn't exist when Jesus was preaching apart from mabey the 12 disciples and they didn't call themselves Christians all though they belived in Jesus,I don't understand what your trying to say?

The Bible doesn't say the New Covenant was born from Judaism, but it does say this:
Galatians 3:19-29 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

(NOTE: the law could only tell someone to do or not to do something, without the power of indwelling love of God, 613 do and don't laws total. That the New Covenant was not born out of the law of sin and death is manifested in nature, that new life doesn't spring from dead organisms.)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

(Note: The law made everyone guilty of it just by violating one of those 613 laws. Success in the Old Covenant was performance based. The New Covenant is based on belief.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

(Note: I assume everyone here has graduated grade schools. I have noticed my old teachers never once inserted themselves into my adult life. They served a profound purpose. So does the Law, teaching me I need a savior. Every time I read it again I am reminded again and again I still need my savior Jesus.)

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That's well explained by Jesus in Matthew 9:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mixing the old and the new doesn't match up, like oil and water. Stop shaking, watch the oil float. The two can't stay mixed. If not meant to be mixed with stability in total agreement/usefulness, then one is not begat of the other. One, the oil, or the water, simply was first.

 

[DP]

Please share your opinions on this subject. I have heard that a lot of Christians now choose not to incorporate much of the Old Testament in their practices.

Sad, but true.

We as Christians are still to study all... of God's Word, line upon line, chapter by chapter.

In Isaiah 28 is the pattern for study. There God was mocking the elders of Israel using their own words to show how they didn't like to study His Word line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. Because they refused that, He showed how they would fall into the snare, fall backwards, and would be taken (i.e., in deception).

Some Bibles have a reference to the OT Scripture when it is being quoted in the NT, which is better than one that does not. I prefer the Companion Bible, a 1611 KJV that lays it out more when the OT is quoted in the NT.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sad, but true.

We as Christians are still to study all... of God's Word, line upon line, chapter by chapter.

In Isaiah 28 is the pattern for study. There God was mocking the elders of Israel using their own words to show how they didn't like to study His Word line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. Because they refused that, He showed how they would fall into the snare, fall backwards, and would be taken (i.e., in deception).

Some Bibles have a reference to the OT Scripture when it is being quoted in the NT, which is better than one that does not. I prefer the Companion Bible, a 1611 KJV that lays it out more when the OT is quoted in the NT.

Wow. Completely backwards. The 'elders' were so obsessed with the letter of the text that they completely missed what those words meant. They stumbled at the stumbling stone.

 

[DP]

Wow. Completely backwards. The 'elders' were so obsessed with the letter of the text that they completely missed what those words meant. They stumbled at the stumbling stone.

You been taught it backwards.

Isa 28:9-14
9 Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.


10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.


12 To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

In the Isaiah 28:10 verse is what the rebellious leaders of His people were saying His Word was like to them. That passage there shows the idea in the Hebrew is as a mocking song. In other words, they didn't like that... precept upon precept... method.

But in Isaiah 28:13 is what God is saying in response to that, that His Word "was unto them precept upon precept..." so that what would happen to them???

"... that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

In other words, because God's Word is 'precept upon precept', they refused to do it, and thus they would fall backward, be broken, snared, and taken. That... is the idea of their stumbling at His Word, It having become a 'stumbling block' to them.

In verse 9 God is saying those who weaned from the "milk" are who He makes to understand doctrine and teaches knowledge to, not those who are on the "milk". See also Hebrews 5 about that.

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

Apostle Paul admonished Timothy (and us) to study to become "a workman" in God's Word. That certainly does not mean to not read God's Word for oneself. Nor does it mean to skip over portions of God's Word you don't like.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You been taught it backwards.

I was thinking out loud, I may be wrong about it.

 

[DP]

I was thinking out loud, I may be wrong about it.

It really is a very important matter, especially since the way God's Holy Writ is written, its timelines can jump between the present, past, and future very quickly, sometimes between two verses or even within a single verse.

Without line upon line study, it becomes easy to miss those different timelines, and to get the written events in the wrong order.

This is why Apostle Paul mentioned also the importance of 'rightly dividing the word of truth'. It means to rightly divide those timeline divisions in Bible prophecy according to their events, and get them in the right order. This is also why God repeated those prophecy examples in several Bible Books.

 

[GrahamDennis]

It really is a very important matter, especially since the way God's Holy Writ is written, its timelines can jump between the present, past, and future very quickly, sometimes between two verses or even within a single verse.

Without line upon line study, it becomes easy to miss those different timelines, and to get the written events in the wrong order.

This is why Apostle Paul mentioned also the importance of 'rightly dividing the word of truth'. It means to rightly divide those timeline divisions in Bible prophecy according to their events, and get them in the right order. This is also why God repeated those prophecy examples in several Bible Books.

Why would God make scripture so hard to read? Not everyone is a scholar not everyone can understand that in one quote there may be two different time lines being discussed! Surley God would want all of his children to easily understand scripture,I think this is another example of Men trying to twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean,to give them power and influence over other men,I think scripture should be read in it's simplest form,no hidden meanings,no double characters and time lines thousands of years apart,God wouldn't want to confuse us would he?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why would God make scripture so hard to read? Not everyone is a scholar not everyone can understand that in one quote there may be two different time lines being discussed! Surley God would want all of his children to easily understand scripture,I think this is another example of Men trying to twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean,to give them power and influence over other men,I think scripture should be read in it's simplest form,no hidden meanings,no double characters and time lines thousands of years apart,God wouldn't want to confuse us would he?

I ask myself the same question sometimes.

To complicate things even more, I went back to study that passage and found that it's not the same at all in the Septuagint (LXX).

Masoretic Text

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Isaiah 28:13​

LXX

Therefore the oracle of God shall be to them affliction on affliction, hope on hope, yet a little, and yet a little, that they may go and fall backward; and they shall be crushed and shall be in danger, and shall be taken. Isaiah 28:13​

 

[DP]

Why would God make scripture so hard to read? Not everyone is a scholar not everyone can understand that in one quote there may be two different time lines being discussed! Surley God would want all of his children to easily understand scripture,I think this is another example of Men trying to twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean,to give them power and influence over other men,I think scripture should be read in it's simplest form,no hidden meanings,no double characters and time lines thousands of years apart,God wouldn't want to confuse us would he?

He didn't make it that difficult. The understanding I speak of comes simply from study of all His Word, becoming a "workman" in it like Apostle Paul said to Timothy.

Also, God calls some specifically for concentration on that, which is the pastor calling who is to be a teacher in all of God's Word. This is why God has provided the Church with some very excellent Bible scholars in past history, even though no man can be perfect.

As for men trying to twist Scripture to their liking, that is exactly what confirming for ourselves in studying God's Word when we become a "workman" in It prevents. Even if a brother/sister in Christ claims to have a revelation from The Holy Spirit, I am going to check them out in God's Word to see if that is written or not, because The Holy Spirit will not... contradict Himself in God's Holy Writ.

Not only that, but our Lord Jesus even warned us about the "hireling" that preaches/teaches in the Church for hire, treating it like a business career (John 10). That was warned about in the OT prophets also (Ezek.13). Have you ever bothered to study that Ezekiel 13 chapter?

 

[kaylagrl]

Please share your opinions on this subject. I have heard that a lot of Christians now choose not to incorporate much of the Old Testament in their practices.

The following article puts it as clearly as any Ive seen. Yes,the OT is still relevant today.Jesus came to fulfill the Law. OT and NT go together like hand in glove. Christians need to be very careful saying the OT is of no account. Many Christians,so called,that support homosexuality say that the NT says nothing against it and since the OT is irrelevant its not wrong. The OT is important.It was to the new Christians and it is today.


https://www.gci.org/law/otlaws

 

[DP]

The following article puts it as clearly as any Ive seen. Yes,the OT is still relevant today.Jesus came to fulfill the Law. OT and NT go together like hand in glove. Christians need to be very careful saying the OT is of no account. Many Christians,so called,that support homosexuality say that the NT says nothing against it and since the OT is irrelevant its not wrong. The OT is important.It was to the new Christians and it is today.


https://www.gci.org/law/otlaws

Thing is, the Books of the OT prophets are NOT... the law. And the NT does speak against the sin of homosexuality also (1 Cor.6:9-10; 1 Tim.1:10).

 

[Word_Swordsman]

To properly understand Chapter 28 one ought to at least start at verse 1. Isaiah was chiefly prophesying against Ephraim and Samaria, concerning their utter destruction, carrying the effects of that over to Judah. Ephraim and Samaria were immediate neighbors to the north of Judah, the Jews liking that barrier against invasion from the north. The lawyers and judges, prophets and priests in the northern kingdom had become daytime drunks, unable to do their jobs. They had all forsaken the commandments, unable to even discuss scriptures, much less lead their people in repentance. Instead of open scrolls and searching for answers, the leaders' tables were covered with drunken vomit.

So we come to verse Isaiah 28:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Here we have Isaiah passing a message from God that they have a problem learning, men who were all their lives steeped in the law, judges, lawyers, priests, scribes, prophets all not wanting to be taught, being the teachers.
What God was telling them, that they would require concepts like a kindergartner earning one little item at a time, line by line, even word at a time, they hated.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

That part of the prophesy was for post invasion later, when foreigners would be issuing new commandments, line upon line. They would be powerless to resist foreign rule.

So now I hope the rest of that story makes more sense. All of it was fulfilled.

 

[DP]

To properly understand Chapter 28 one ought to at least start at verse 1. Isaiah was chiefly prophesying against Ephraim and Samaria, concerning their utter destruction, carrying the effects of that over to Judah. Ephraim and Samaria were immediate neighbors to the north of Judah, the Jews liking that barrier against invasion from the north. The lawyers and judges, prophets and priests in the northern kingdom had become daytime drunks, unable to do their jobs. They had all forsaken the commandments, unable to even discuss scriptures, much less lead their people in repentance. Instead of open scrolls and searching for answers, the leaders' tables were covered with drunken vomit.

So we come to verse Isaiah 28:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Here we have Isaiah passing a message from God that they have a problem learning, men who were all their lives steeped in the law, judges, lawyers, priests, scribes, prophets all not wanting to be taught, being the teachers.
What God was telling them, that they would require concepts like a kindergartner earning one little item at a time, line by line, even word at a time, they hated.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

That part of the prophesy was for post invasion later, when foreigners would be issuing new commandments, line upon line. They would be powerless to resist foreign rule.

So now I hope the rest of that story makes more sense. All of it was fulfilled.

I agree with some of that, but the Isaiah 28:14...

Isa 28:14
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

"Wherefore" is a continuation type phrase, linked to what was said in the prior verses. That shows He was not speaking that only to Ephraim, the head tribe over the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel, but to those at Jerusalem of the house of Judah in Judea also.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I agree with some of that, but the Isaiah 28:14...

Isa 28:14
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

"Wherefore" is a continuation type phrase, linked to what was said in the prior verses. That shows He was not speaking that only to Ephraim, the head tribe over the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel, but to those at Jerusalem of the house of Judah in Judea also.

Let's not stop there. The priests, scribes, judges, lawyers, prophets (catering to former) of Judah, chiefly at Jerusalem, were not far behind the depravity of the northern kingdom. WHile N. Israel had turned to drunkenness in dealing with doom, the south had taken to dealing with the devil.

Isaiah turned toward Judah, all the leaders there who ruled Jerusalem, because......

Isaiah 28:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

How absurd! They were denying the truth of God's covenant with Abraham for all of Israel.

How many more examples aof backsliding are there in the OT and NT? How about today's world? So yes, there is ample reason to allow the OT to teach us what people did wrong and what happened so we need not repeat history.

 

[kaylagrl]

Thing is, the Books of the OT prophets are NOT... the law. And the NT does speak against the sin of homosexuality also (1 Cor.6:9-10; 1 Tim.1:10).

Yes,I had to prove that to someone in the forum the other day about homosexuality.They never answered me back...

 

[FreeNChrist]

The following article puts it as clearly as any Ive seen. Yes,the OT is still relevant today.Jesus came to fulfill the Law. OT and NT go together like hand in glove. Christians need to be very careful saying the OT is of no account. Many Christians,so called,that support homosexuality say that the NT says nothing against it and since the OT is irrelevant its not wrong. The OT is important.It was to the new Christians and it is today.

I have yet to see any Christian here say the OT is of no account, or against the NT, or irrelevant, or unimportant.