Are Messianic Jews saved?

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A

atwhatcost

Guest
#21
#21
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Messianics fall into different groups. Some probably are legalistic. Don't confuse messianics with Hebrew Roots.
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Not a problem. I don't understand Hebrew Roots either, so I'm too confused to confuse them or it with anything. (Sort of like Armstrongism. I did research on the term and walked away as confused as I was when I started my research. lol)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#22
#22
FreeNChrist said:
Obviously, they self identify as Messianic Jews, not as Christians. No one is saved by the moniker they hang on themselves.
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Was that a yes, no, or neither? Didn't get that answer at all.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#24
#24
MarcR said:
Two types of groups call themselves Messianic:

1) the Hebrew Roots movement is comprised of primarily gentile believers who want to put themselves and others back under Law.

2) ethnically Jewish believers, who integrate well with mainstream churches while finding many practices of ancient Judaism both helpful in understanding Jesus' teachings , and culturally appropriate.

Only the second group are Messianic Jews.
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Wow. That's odd. I live in Philly, which tends to give me ample room to find all sorts of things most towns don't have. One of the things we have in this city is a Messianic Temple full of Messianic Jews. (Again. Never dawned on me to ask if they were born Jewish or not, so I really don't know.) I never asked if they were connected to a denomination either, but I'm guessing the congregation was a 80/20 split. 80% were members and the other 20% were those of us checking out what was going on.

I walked away believing they were believers, but it just wasn't my style. No different than high heels isn't my style either. (I'm just saying I won't wear high heels, but have no problems if others do.) One of our group wanted to keep going back. I know it interested him. I just don't know if he ended up going that way or not.

But there really are Messianic Jews who compose of the congregation too.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#25
#25
FreeNChrist said:
Nobody is saved by what they are called, or call themselves.
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IRL, are you a politician? Let me clarify for you. I am fully aware that just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't always mean they're Christians. I'm in the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA.) My denomination is made up of mostly people who are Christians, but in that group I'm equally as sure not all of us are. Just the same, if someone to ask, "Are PCA's Christian?" I'd answer Yes.

This is that kind of question. It's not searching down into the soul of each individual. It's looking at a group and then deciding, for ourselves, if that particular group is out to follow Christ, not if everyone in that group is.

AND there are labels, and those labels are a good thing so we can figure out the basic message behind a group to determine just this kind of thing in a generalized why. So, of course labels don't save, but they do tell something about the thing being labeled. You know this because you're out to be labeled in the group that believes "saved by grace."

So, once again, want to try for clarity?
 
MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#26
Feb 12, 2015
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#26
atwhatcost said:
Not a problem. I don't understand Hebrew Roots either, so I'm too confused to confuse them or it with anything. (Sort of like Armstrongism. I did research on the term and walked away as confused as I was when I started my research. lol)
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They are indeed an outgrowth of Armstrong's British Israel movement.
 
MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#27
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#27
atwhatcost said:
Wow. That's odd. I live in Philly, which tends to give me ample room to find all sorts of things most towns don't have. One of the things we have in this city is a Messianic Temple full of Messianic Jews. (Again. Never dawned on me to ask if they were born Jewish or not, so I really don't know.) I never asked if they were connected to a denomination either, but I'm guessing the congregation was a 80/20 split. 80% were members and the other 20% were those of us checking out what was going on.

I walked away believing they were believers, but it just wasn't my style. No different than high heels isn't my style either. (I'm just saying I won't wear high heels, but have no problems if others do.) One of our group wanted to keep going back. I know it interested him. I just don't know if he ended up going that way or not.

But there really are Messianic Jews who compose of the congregation too.
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Most Messianic Jews are not Torah observant. Most are members of mainstream church congregations. In addition to their mainstream church affiliations, many are members of Messianic Jewish congregations, which observe the Sabbath and the fast and festivals of Leviticus 23. They do so NOT UNDER LAW, but to preserve both their cultural heritage and their witness in the Jewish community.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#28
#28
MarcR said:
They are indeed an outgrowth of Armstrong's British Israel movement.
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Wow! I am as confused as possible.

This is what that sounds like to me:

Joe: What are kadishkeddles?

Jane: Do you mean fleckenhausen kadishkeddles or bobbabanko kadishkeddles?


LOL
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#29
#29
MarcR said:
Most Messianic Jews are not Torah observant. Most are members of mainstream church congregations. In addition to their mainstream church affiliations, many are members of Messianic Jewish congregations, which observe the Sabbath and the fast and festivals of Leviticus 23. They do so NOT UNDER LAW, but to preserve both their cultural heritage and their witness in the Jewish community.
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Which, for the record, is exactly what I thought they were in the first place -- before researching. (Maybe that's the problem. My research abilities. lol)
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#30
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
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#30
atwhatcost said:
IRL, are you a politician? Let me clarify for you. I am fully aware that just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't always mean they're Christians. I'm in the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA.) My denomination is made up of mostly people who are Christians, but in that group I'm equally as sure not all of us are. Just the same, if someone to ask, "Are PCA's Christian?" I'd answer Yes.

This is that kind of question. It's not searching down into the soul of each individual. It's looking at a group and then deciding, for ourselves, if that particular group is out to follow Christ, not if everyone in that group is.

AND there are labels, and those labels are a good thing so we can figure out the basic message behind a group to determine just this kind of thing in a generalized why. So, of course labels don't save, but they do tell something about the thing being labeled. You know this because you're out to be labeled in the group that believes "saved by grace."

So, once again, want to try for clarity?
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Messianic Jews are Jews who have found their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Therefore them identifying as Messianic Jews doesn't matter in relation to their salvation but fundamentally translates who they are in relation to Christ. Simply put, Jews who have found their Messiah. Its really that simple. :) FreeNChrist was just trying to clarify that them not identifying as Christians does not mean they are not in the body of Christ, and also pointing out that they believe in Jesus of Nazareth which is revealed in their name Messianic Jews. Jesus is their Messiah.
 
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MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#31
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#31
atwhatcost said:
Wow! I am as confused as possible.

This is what that sounds like to me:

Joe: What are kadishkeddles?

Jane: Do you mean fleckenhausen kadishkeddles or bobbabanko kadishkeddles?


LOL
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Lynn,

You are not separating the Hebrew Roots movement from Messianic Jews; but they are in fact two entirely different things!

It is almost like you are asking 'what kind of hip boots are sandals?' they are different things.

The only thing Hebrew Roots and Messianic Jews have in common is that both claim to be people.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#32
#32
atwhatcost said:
IRL, are you a politician? Let me clarify for you. I am fully aware that just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't always mean they're Christians. I'm in the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA.) My denomination is made up of mostly people who are Christians, but in that group I'm equally as sure not all of us are. Just the same, if someone to ask, "Are PCA's Christian?" I'd answer Yes.

This is that kind of question. It's not searching down into the soul of each individual. It's looking at a group and then deciding, for ourselves, if that particular group is out to follow Christ, not if everyone in that group is.

AND there are labels, and those labels are a good thing so we can figure out the basic message behind a group to determine just this kind of thing in a generalized why. So, of course labels don't save, but they do tell something about the thing being labeled. You know this because you're out to be labeled in the group that believes "saved by grace."

So, once again, want to try for clarity?
Click to expand...
Well, I don't have your ability to determine what individuals are saved or not. Let alone what groups of people are.....as if.
 
MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#33
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#33
FreeNChrist said:
Well, I don't have your ability to determine what individuals are saved or not. Let alone what groups of people are.....as if.
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The website, that confused Lynn, tried to make what IMO is a non-existent distinction between Messianic Jews and Christians. By calling themselves not Christian they understandably raised doubts about their salvation.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#34
#34
MarcR said:
The website, that confused Lynn, tried to make what IMO is a non-existent distinction between Messianic Jews and Christians. By calling themselves not Christian they understandably raised doubts about their salvation.
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Unfortunately there are many Messianics who have substituted Law-keeping for Christ. The basis by which we are made acceptable to God is the dividing and deciding factor for me.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#35
#35
BenFTW said:
Messianic Jews are Jews who have found their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Therefore them identifying as Messianic Jews doesn't matter in relation to their salvation but fundamentally translates who they are in relation to Christ. Simply put, Jews who have found their Messiah. Its really that simple. :) FreeNChrist was just trying to clarify that them not identifying as Christians does not mean they are not in the body of Christ, and also pointing out that they believe in Jesus of Nazareth which is revealed in their name Messianic Jews. Jesus is their Messiah.
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Ah, thank you! That I understood!
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#36
#36
MarcR said:
Lynn,

You are not separating the Hebrew Roots movement from Messianic Jews; but they are in fact two entirely different things!

It is almost like you are asking 'what kind of hip boots are sandals?' they are different things.

The only thing Hebrew Roots and Messianic Jews have in common is that both claim to be people.
Click to expand...
Okay, then next obvious question -- how did Hebrew Roots get in this discussion at all? I know it wasn't you or I, but it really did confuse me as much as kadishkeddles.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#37
#37
FreeNChrist said:
Well, I don't have your ability to determine what individuals are saved or not. Let alone what groups of people are.....as if.
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Let me test this theory.

Are Jehovah Witnesses Christians? Mormons? Scientologist? (I think we can do this in the very basic sense.)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#38
#38
FreeNChrist said:
Unfortunately there are many Messianics who have substituted Law-keeping for Christ. The basis by which we are made acceptable to God is the dividing and deciding factor for me.
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Aha! You do have an opinion. See? I'm not clobbering you for it. I just wanted to know what you thought. This was the kind of answer I was asking for.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#39
#39
atwhatcost said:
Let me test this theory.

Are Jehovah Witnesses Christians? Mormons? Scientologist? (I think we can do this in the very basic sense.)
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As far as I know Christ saves individuals not groups of people. Those are all cults in my book. But, God can and does use anything and anybody to bring folks to Himself. At what point do you decide they no longer have any chance?
 
MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#40
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#40
atwhatcost said:
Okay, then next obvious question -- how did Hebrew Roots get in this discussion at all? I know it wasn't you or I, but it really did confuse me as much as kadishkeddles.
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Lynn,

Hebrew Roots is one of the two kinds of groups that call themselves Messianic.

Hebrew Roots are Armstrongite, British Israel Gentiles.

Messianic Jews are Hebrew Christians and they are ethnically Jewish.

Most Messianic Jewish congregations are affiliated with either American Board of Mission to the Jews or Chosen People; both of which are mainstream Christian mission boards which draw their support primarily from mainstream churches and denominations.
 
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