Originally Posted by
P1LGR1M
Aha, an undercover evangelist, eh?
Better to keep it out in the open. I mean, there is nothing you are afraid to say you believe out in public, is there?
God bless.
Hahaha not at all!
Whew! You have a sense of humor!
Outstanding!
It was a joke, glad you recognized it, lol.
I honestly just don't want to be one of those Atheists that goes to a Christian forum and hijacks the website to talk about myself. I really am here to learn from people with different views to my own.
So you recognize there are Atheists that go to Christian Forums for the express purpose of presenting their beliefs.
Could I suggest to you that this is something that atheists do, and this presents a parallel to the evangelists of other beliefs that do the same. I don't see that everyone goes to speak about themselves, but to speak about the differences in beliefs we have. Christian Forums get visits from Atheists, Muslims, and even groups who consider themselves Christian, and they come for the specific purpose of making proselytes to their own faith.
If you go through the threads here, you will find a multitude of types of Christians, Conservative, Fundamentalists, Charismatics, Reformed, Catholic, and a few that we simply cannot associate with any group because their doctrine is so far displaced from an Orthodox view (which is itself subject to debate) that there is no group which would really support the individual doctrines they teach (or I should say try to).
But I commend you on wanting to learn from others. You might be surprised but I owe a debt of gratitude to atheists for a number of reasons. One would be that I have learned that the caricature of atheists that I had, which was instilled by preaching from pulpits I say under, was an erroneous and unjust attitude to have. Another would be that their faith in their beliefs has challenged me to actually challenge my own understanding about certain issues. Another would be that I have learned the importance of understanding what and why my antagonist believes before assuming I understand them.
We can all benefit from discussion with antagonists, and it does not mean we have to violate as simple command of God, that being...love they neighbor as thyself.
I am not given a mandate to give my "neighbors" a test to see if they qualify for the love of God as expressed through my person, just a simple command that all I come into contact with I am commanded to have love for. That doesn't mean that love is always expressed in gushy platitudes, lol, because we do not show love when we refrain from being honest with people.
I see no purer form of hatred than disinterest in the fate of others.
I did some more research today about the idea of Atheism as a religion and I do think it comes down to language and definition.
In one sense, yes, because many times people try to classify others based on limited knowledge. We can see that in the threads designed to bash a certain group.
So by definition we can categorize, but, with that definition we also have practical matters to consider. The easiest way to explain it is in saying that someone professing to be a Christian doesn't mean that they are. Association is not the only matter to consider, we also look at their lives and determine what that life represents. A man might join the Marines and wash out of boot camp. Is he a Marine? The American Soldier that threw a grenade into his barracks...was he an American Soldier?
I did not before but I think that yes depending on how you are defining Atheism and Religion it could be considered a Religion. I suppose it also surprises me as I would never have considered myself religious.
And this is likely due to the fact that most atheists define atheism simply as a "lack of belief in God or gods," but that isn't all that has to be taken into consideration. The Atheist you referred to earlier who goes to forums with the intent of "hi-jacking" the forum is a good example of a "religious atheist."
How "religious" you are doesn't change the fact that Atheism is for some atheists...their religion. And how religious of an atheist they are is determined, surprise surprise...in their works.
And we can say that we see faith in the things which serve as a basis for their beliefs. For example, one might believe that Evolution is a fact based on the "science" presented to support it, but what is always lacking is an examination of not only the science's validity, but science which points us to believe that evolution is not only in error, but cannot be supported by the fact that man is steadily devolving, rather than evolving.
And that is the picture of man as presented in God's Word.
As you and a couple of others have asked me and do not mind me talk about it on here I will explain why I believe.
I would say I have a lack of belief in God/Gods, however I am willing to be proven wrong. I don't claim to know this as a fact.
O ye of little faith...
Again I commend you for that. All I can suggest is that you consider whether you have, like many who are religious, indoctrinated yourself by looking only at those things which agree with what you want to believe. This is a typical problem for most who are religious, and we can see this on every forum.
Usually those who are reformed, for example, appeal to reformed resources. Catholics appeal to Catholic resources. Atheists appeal to atheist resources.
But when we approach it with an honest desire to know truth, I think we can find that truth.
I do believe that evolution is true based on what I know and understand now.
And the question is...what resources have you gone to that have led you to believe it to be true? Was your education biased towards Evolution? The television shows you watched?
What was the motivation to go to resources that promote Evolution and have you ever consulted resources that deny Evolution and promote Creationism?
However I don't desire it to be true or hope it is If something more compelling is presented or if it is proven wrong I will change my mind.
Then at this time I would consider you to be very nominal in your convictions. You're not alone in that, many, if not most...are.
The question is, are you willing to challenge the beliefs you currently hold to the point where you look at both sides, that you can better determine and draw conclusions that are more balanced?
I don't have an emotional investment in that belief.
Are you sure about that? lol
Seriously, consider the fact that previously you had not considered a "religious" connotation to Atheism. Some people vote Republican, for example, because Republicans tend to be pro-life. Doesn't mean they are on-board with the Republican Party. Doesn't mean they agree with every Republican.
But the emotion arises when the counter Party or parties come up. Because of a rejection of abortion, they despise all Democrats.
Is such a person a Republican, and does that mean there are no Democrats that are Pro-Life?
The same goes for the Big Bang and other science based questions.
Where is the Science?
There is no real science that can validate the Big Bang.
We just don't have the necessary data to draw that conclusion, but, you say it is "Science."
And I agree theory is in fact scientific, but, that is a far cry from a dogmatic conclusion on the matter.
If all the above points turn out not to be true I wont necessarily believe in God then as there are many possibilities. God could be one but I personally have not been convinced that is the case.
So what are the "many possibilities?"
I also think culturally I have grown up with very little exposure to religion.
Your testimony seems to contradict that a little.
Religion is something personal and does not have the same level of controversy as perhaps it does in other countries,
I think I can dismantle that theory simply by suggesting you check into the threads, lol.
As far as it being personal, that is not really the case with a religious mindset. Usually religion is something that consists of like-minded "believers," if you will, who share in doctrine. Went round and round with one atheist on his assertion "There is no such thing as Atheist Doctrine," and he took great offense at me capitalizing those two words together. The truth is...doctrine simply means teaching, and there are many atheist teachings we could examine.
We have touched on a few of those, but the primary Atheist Doctrine is the assertion "There is no God or gods." The many Atheist Doctrines associated with Atheism can be traced back to proving that primary doctrinal position. And many atheists will appeal to the available resources geared for the express intent of strengthening faith in that primary doctrine.
Atheism is not a neutral position. It is a pro-active assertion which logically demands a basis for that belief, or the atheist becomes that which he charges the "religious" with, someone who blindly accepts something that has no proof.
Can you see the problem there?
I can only speak from what I know from the media and family that live abroad. That may also lead to my Atheistic approach to life.
Two things, first, we see an influence in your life which is external, which you credit as contributing to your current beliefs.
Secondly, you admit an "atheistic approach to life," which affirms the definition given in the first few posts, taken from Wikipedia...
From
Wikipedia:
A
religion is an organized collection of
beliefs,
cultural systems, and
world views that relate
humanity to an order of existence.[SUP]
[note 1][/SUP] Many religions have
narratives,
symbols, and
sacred histories that aim to explain the
meaning of life, the
origin of life, or the
Universe.
From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people may derive morality, ethics, religious laws, or a preferred lifestyle.
And I just mention this to see if you can see a relation between your statement and the definition of religion given here.
So consider my example of the Vegan. Religious? Or no?
I think that being Vegan no in and of itself, being Vegan as a result of religion then it would be the religion that is religious and being a Vegan is as a result of that.
Is there a spiritual connotation given to the life of animals, one which presents a view of sanctity of life?
(which often is associated with why an atheist is an atheist in the first place, i.e., a bad experience with religion or religious people)
Could you clarify this for me?
Basically many atheists (and I know this from speaking with a great many of them) absolutely hate religion because they view it as harmful, and this is usually a matter of experiential knowledge.
They have either been harmed by someone professing a religion or they have been indoctrinated by someone who has declared religion harmful and presented "historical accounts" to support their teaching.
The Catholic Church seems to take the largest brunt, primarily because they are viewed in large part as a representative group of Christianity which has along history of errors to draw from.
When's the last time you saw history or the media highlight something good that has been accomplished by Catholics or other Christians?
I only have a desire not be recognised as not religious in so much as I don't view myself as religious.
And if someone else views you as religious?
Can you tell me that this thread did not attract your attention and that your initial reaction wasn't "That's ridiculous!"
And I am trying to be as sensitive as I can be, Jess, this is just a topic which is in itself sensitive.
IS there really a problem with being viewed as religious? James states pure and undefiled religion is to visit the fatherless and widows. Would you take offense if someone viewed your "religion" (your works) in a positive light and meant it as a compliment?
So where does that negative connotation come from. If you can answer that, I think you will begin to see a little bit of "religion" in your beliefs, lol.
If however through language a consequences were agreed by all/ the majority including Atheists that we were a religion i don't think I would have a problem with that.
Maybe not.
But some atheists will fight that tooth and nail. And again, I know this from past experience with atheists.
Although the idea of being religious Atheist is a funny concept to me.
It is, lol. The irony is overwhelming.
I also what to say the above points about bad experiences is not the case for me I can't say I have had any bad experiences like that....yet
But you have testified of influence which held a negative connotation, yes?
Originally Posted by
JessP
Many Atheist disagree about the extent to which someone can be an Atheist.
How do you know this?
Because when I talk to my friends some of them make Claims that God Cannot exists and although I Identify as an atheist they call me agnostic.
So you challenge their assertion that "God does not exist" is an assumption? Something you are not willing to do?
Some of them say you can't be an Atheist if you believe in ghosts.
Well, that suggest something more than the electro-chemical process most atheists view human conscience to be.
Do you believe in ghosts, Jess?
If you could add to it I would be appreciative.
We will have to wait until you explain exactly what you believe before we can compare common beliefs you hold with other atheists. but, I am going to guess you embrace evolution, for one. If you do not, I would be glad to hear what other option there is for the atheist.
Another would be in regards to the universe. There is Intelligent Design and Chance. Where do you stand on that?
I have to say that I view us as animals
So what do you base that on? Where did you learn this?
and I also don't believe in Intelligent design.
But are you able to state dogmatically that it is an impossibility?
Okay P1lgr1m I am going to get on to your next post and start answering those questions now! - I'm getting there
You did excellent, Jess, I appreciate your efforts.
And have to get going, but again I appreciate your participation in the thread. You are a valuable part of this process of discussion that allows us to put away caricatures and misconceptions we have about each other, to where we can look at the issues that divide us, and perhaps along the way grow a little on a number of levels.
God bless.
Originally Posted by JessP
