When did Christ save you?
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Here is something true, but it's in the nature of divinity, of an all-knowing God. We are not all knowing, we cannot wrap our minds around the concept of "all anything", because we are not of this, and honestly, were we to try, the answer always comes down to predestination. But we have free will, we have the option to deny Him, or at least the apparent option, the option warned against in God's word.
So we have what seems to be conflicting ideas, but really they don't conflict at all. I can't mind what "God knows", as it, to me, is "empty set". If someone says, "If someone asks God when you were saved", the clear answer is "God always knew". If someone asks me when I was saved, my answer must be to my understanding, "when I became a person", and further "because of Christ's passion".
So I believe your answer is correct, but I can't give it, because I'm being asked and I cannot understand God's answer enough to fully express it honestly. You are true, I am honest. What's the difference? Empty set.
So we have what seems to be conflicting ideas, but really they don't conflict at all. I can't mind what "God knows", as it, to me, is "empty set". If someone says, "If someone asks God when you were saved", the clear answer is "God always knew". If someone asks me when I was saved, my answer must be to my understanding, "when I became a person", and further "because of Christ's passion".
So I believe your answer is correct, but I can't give it, because I'm being asked and I cannot understand God's answer enough to fully express it honestly. You are true, I am honest. What's the difference? Empty set.
According to God we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world too.
We humans think as time in a linear fashion. God is outside of time so in His mind ( which counts for me ) it was a done deal....just going through the motions now.
here is another one..God's works are already finished.
Hebrews 4:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
The truth that God is outside of time is exciting! Whenever God gives us a special word...you know one that jumps out at us?..it bears witness with our spirit...it comes "alive" to us?..know what I mean?
When God gives us a word - God who is outside of time sees us in ( our ) future and He comes back to us with the word that is needed to get us there.
Then this is where faith and patience causes us to obtain the promises of God for us.
Isn't that exciting?
We humans think as time in a linear fashion. God is outside of time so in His mind ( which counts for me ) it was a done deal....just going through the motions now.
here is another one..God's works are already finished.
Hebrews 4:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
The truth that God is outside of time is exciting! Whenever God gives us a special word...you know one that jumps out at us?..it bears witness with our spirit...it comes "alive" to us?..know what I mean?
When God gives us a word - God who is outside of time sees us in ( our ) future and He comes back to us with the word that is needed to get us there.
Then this is where faith and patience causes us to obtain the promises of God for us.
Isn't that exciting?
Okay....
"For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Rom 5:17
So what you accepted happened 2000 years ago "in Christ".
Now, what about those who can't chose or reject Christ, like infants and mentally handicapped? Here is where the truth of Romans 5:18 comes into play:
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
No answer there to the question put to him.
No answer there to the question put to him.
It looks to me here that he is saying exactly, he does not believe what Jesus said about our needing to be born again.
Discussion apparently still under contention... and I am still being falsely accused while the other pretends they answered my question right away when they did not. Now they accuse me of intentionally misrepresenting them and playing games.
No answer there to the question put to him.
It looks to me here that he is saying exactly, he does not believe what Jesus said about our needing to be born again.
Discussion apparently still under contention... and I am still being falsely accused while the other pretends they answered my question right away when they did not. Now they accuse me of intentionally misrepresenting them and playing games.
The same is expressed in Eph chapter 2:4-8
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love (agape) with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in our transgressions (lost, unbelieving sinners), made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace inkindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith...
Notice that God's love saved us "in Christ" 2000 years ago. We were saved by God's grace before faith.
Proof? God raised us up with Christ and He took that glorified life to heaven "in Christ." Hence we have a new glorified humanity in heaven now. This all happened before we accepted Christ when we were spiritually dead in our transgressions and sins.
Hence God's work of redemption "in Christ" is a finished work without one iota of human contribution. We can't add anything to God's work of redemption. IT is finished.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love (agape) with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in our transgressions (lost, unbelieving sinners), made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace inkindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith...
Notice that God's love saved us "in Christ" 2000 years ago. We were saved by God's grace before faith.
Proof? God raised us up with Christ and He took that glorified life to heaven "in Christ." Hence we have a new glorified humanity in heaven now. This all happened before we accepted Christ when we were spiritually dead in our transgressions and sins.
Hence God's work of redemption "in Christ" is a finished work without one iota of human contribution. We can't add anything to God's work of redemption. IT is finished.
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it appears there is no before with God Who is eternal. There is a foundation of the world tho which is in the realm of time.
It does only make sense to our natural minds regarding the actual event of the Incarnation when we only think of time in a linear fashion.
Lol..it makes us laugh when I think about how so little I know...perhaps that is why God gave me faith to get me out of the natural way of thinking...like how can one be born-again?..do I have to go back into my mother's womb again?
It does only make sense to our natural minds regarding the actual event of the Incarnation when we only think of time in a linear fashion.
Lol..it makes us laugh when I think about how so little I know...perhaps that is why God gave me faith to get me out of the natural way of thinking...like how can one be born-again?..do I have to go back into my mother's womb again?
One can believe in a universal atonement without being an universalists. It would appear that we do have to receive what is already been made available.
For example I put $1,000,000 in everyone's bank account..it's a done deal...but they have to receive it in order to appropriate what is already there. - So, everyone has the money but one can choose not to receive it.
For example I put $1,000,000 in everyone's bank account..it's a done deal...but they have to receive it in order to appropriate what is already there. - So, everyone has the money but one can choose not to receive it.
I was taught years ago that if an older Christian committed suicide they wouldn't go to heaven. There was always something about that , that just didn't bear witness with me.
What if a person that is sick with cancer I thought..would they go to heaven if they died?..of course!...so if someone is sick in the head and die from themselves...what is the difference?
My conclusion...there is no difference.
What if a person that is sick with cancer I thought..would they go to heaven if they died?..of course!...so if someone is sick in the head and die from themselves...what is the difference?
My conclusion...there is no difference.
I see... God may be outside of time, since time is an aspect (some call it a dimension) of creation, but He did enter time in the form of Jesus Christ, and our saving was also within the time frame of our lives, perhaps when we repented and believed. Saying it happened before we were even born seems a bit misleading just because Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf was purposed from before the foundation of the world. Maybe in the mind of God it did, but for us, who inhabit time, it was within a framework thus parameterized.