Can liars and thieves still make heaven?
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Thank you, Ahwatukee for doing something no one else has done….attempting to explain with scriptures. However, I still have some unanswered questions which goes beyond assuming as you are doing that being with Jesus and the Father means it will be in heaven. Also I was a little unclear if you were saying that when you die and your soul/breath of life return to GOD, you go to heaven or in the end. But either way, there is the fact that when you die, the bible say that you return to ground from which you came from. True enough it does say that the breath of life in which God breathe into your nostril return to God. So how can you be with God, at this point? It’s only the breath that return to GOD…not you….the bible states the dead know nothing. Therefore if you do not have an awareness that you are not there. I think we both agree that the dead is in the grave, not in heaven. Job 14:10-13 -- ( 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! ) Once again, I think we are both on the same page that when we die, we are died until Jesus return and all died who are found worthy in Christ, rises. Which brings us to your scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 in which I think we both agree is saying that just like Jesus the dead which have obeyed God’s commandments will rise too. That Jesus will ascend from heaven with a shout and dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are ready that are still alive will change and meet him in the air. Well what you did not cover is what happen after they meet in the air. I will feel in what I found and would love to get your feedback on what you found. I am sure it is in the bible. Well I found that the saints which meet Jesus in the air will go with him to last space he left and was promised to return…See Acts 1:7-11 -- ( 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. ). In other word, after meeting the saints in the air, Jesus will return to the Mount of Olive, as the angel said he would. See Zechariah 14:4 -- ( 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. ). This is the first resurrection and he doesn’t takes them back to heaven, instead he lands in Jerusalem which is where the Mount of Olive is. It is there were they will have the battle with all nations and take this earth by force. Zechariah 14:1-3 and 11-15– ( 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. ) and Isaiah 66:15-18 – ( 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. ) and
1 of 3
1 of 3
2 of 3: Zephaniah 1:14-18 – ( 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. 17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. ) and Revelation 19:15-16 – ( 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. ) and Revelation 14:14-20 – ( 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. ) and Isaiah 63:1-6 – ( 1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? 3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth. ) and Isaiah 34:1-8 – ( 1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. ) and Jeremiah 25:27-33 – ( 27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. 28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. 29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. 30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. ) and Isaiah 13:6-13 -- ( 6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. ) and Luke 21:25-28, 31-32, and 34-36 – ( 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. )
3 of 3 : All of these scriptures tell you how Jesus will take this earth by force, killing many. After the battle Jesus will set up shop here on earth for the 1000 years of rest he speak of in the Bible. There will be peace for a 1000 years after this is over and the devil is bound into chain during this time. See Revelation 20:1-6 -- ( 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. ) See Zechariah 14:6-9 -- ( 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ) At the end of the 1000 years the Devil is let loose to go and see who he can deceive again. And the Bible tells us that he will deceive Gog and magog into attempting to attack the saints who reign with Jesus there in Jerusalem for those 1000 years and the Father will rain fire from heaven and kill them all. This point marks the 2nd resurrection starting where the great white throne judgement will be done of all others who were not found worthy to be judged to see if they will be allow into the kingdom. After the judgement and Jesus has put the last two, death and hell was cast into the lake of fire. See Revelation 20:7-15 -- (7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ) After Jesus has put the last two death in hell into the lake of fire he hand over the king to Father. This is where the place he has went to prepare for us going to come down, which is called the Father’s kingdom. It has 12 gates of gold called New Jerusalem, it will be coming down, not us going up to heaven where it was. And he said he will dwell with us. (Rev. 21:3) See Revelation 21:1-27 – (1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, hrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. ) So that is what I read, please tell me if you read anything otherwise of where we are going to be with Jesus and the Father. And thank you again, for answering with scripture, if you could just please take it further to show me where it say we will be with him in heaven, please.
Jayoish
Jayoish
Hello again Jayoish,
Yes, you are correct, Scripture states that the body returns to the earth and decays for both the righteous and unrighteous. According to the scriptures that I provided in the previous post (2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:23), when the believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. A good example of this is found at the 5th seal where John sees the souls under the altar who were killed for the testimony that they maintained and for the word of God. This scripture demonstrates that, these souls under the altar in heaven are conscious and aware, as they are having a conversation with the Lord and they are given white robes to wear and are told to wait a little while longer until their fellow brothers and servants are to be killed in the same way as they had, where they will all be resurrected together at a later time.
That is what happens at the time of death to the spirit/soul. However, when the resurrection and catching away takes place, Jesus will descend from heaven with all of the spirits/souls of all believers and their bodies will be resurrected, where they will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies.
In contrast, when the unrighteous die, their spirits/souls also depart from the body, except that they go to or are taken to Hades where they will be in torment in flame, just as the rich man of the rich man and Lazarus was/is, and will remain there until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, where at which time they will be bodily resurrected as well and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment where they will be judged for every sin that they ever committed.
To recap, at the time of death, it is the spirit/soul (not the body) that goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. Where, at the resurrection and catching away, it involves the reuniting of spirit/soul with the resurrected body. Just as Christ was resurrected in a flesh and bone body (Luke 24:39), so it is also a guarantee to all believers to be resurrected bodily. However, that resurrected body will be an immortal, heavenly, upgraded body, which is referred to as a spiritual body.
The problem that you are encountering is regarding your understanding of the soul/spirit. When the body dies, your soul/spirit, which is not just "breath or wind", but is the essence of who you are except without your body. In that spiritual state you will have all of your faculties just as the souls under the altar did/do. You need take into consideration the scriptures that demonstrate these truths, for that is why God put them in their, to help give us understanding of these spiritual truths. The reason that people don't understand these things is that, they adopt false teachings and then they contend for them, not being open to the truth of scripture.
I would ask you this question, if it was only the breath that returns to God and not the essence of who a person is, then how could Moses and Elijah appear before Christ on the mount of transfiguration and have a conversation with him about his departure?
How could the rich man and father Abraham have a conversation with each other? If the rich man's spirit/soul was just a breath, how could he proclaim to Abraham that he was in torment in the flame? This event demonstrates that the rich man could see, feel and could think, just like he did when he was in his body before it died.
How could Jesus say to the man crucified next to him, "today you will be with me in paradise" when they both died they same day? Obviously their bodies were put into tombs, but their spirits/souls left their bodies and went somewhere else, conscious and aware. For one would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience paradise. You always have to remember that, whenever the word "sleep" is used regarding death, that it is only speaking in regards to the body and not the spirit/soul.
"That Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout and dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are ready that are still alive will be changed and meet him in the air. Well what you did not cover is what happen after they meet in the air. I will feel in what I found and would love to get your feedback on what you found. "
I did answer the question above in the previous post, but I will repost it below for your benefit.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
In the above scripture, Jesus tells his disciples, which of course includes all believers, that he is going back to the Father's house to prepare a place for them and us. Then he says, that since he is going back to prepare a place for us, he will come back and take all believers, dead and living, to be with him. Here he is speaking about the resurrection and catching away when he comes to gather the dead and the living who believed in him. The Father's house can be in reference to one place, which is heaven, and which is where Jesus has been preparing those places for us. That event of his coming to take us back to the Father's house is what the 1 Cor.15:51-53 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 is describing. When this event take place, the dead will rise first and then the living will be transformed and caught up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord in the air, at which point Jesus will take the entire group back with him to the Father's house, that where he is we may be also.
What you have posted above regarding the "first resurrection," is one of the most misunderstood and distorted scriptures. The problem arises when people read the words "first resurrection" they associate "first" with the meaning of "only," as in, that is the only resurrection and therefore, everyone must be resurrected at that time after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. However, the truth of the matter is that, that resurrection which is found in Rev.20:4, is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, only. If you will notice at this resurrection, there is no mention here of the living being changed and caught up, but only those who will have been killed. And the reason that they are said to have been killed, will be because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and because they will not have worshiped the beast or his image and will not have received his mark, which would make this group the great tribulation saints who were introduced in Rev.7. These great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during his thousand year reign on earth (Rev.20:6). In contrast, the church will have been resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of that last seven years in order to be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out.
"but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."
I hope that this helps in giving you some understanding of these issues and events.
Yes, you are correct, Scripture states that the body returns to the earth and decays for both the righteous and unrighteous. According to the scriptures that I provided in the previous post (2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:23), when the believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. A good example of this is found at the 5th seal where John sees the souls under the altar who were killed for the testimony that they maintained and for the word of God. This scripture demonstrates that, these souls under the altar in heaven are conscious and aware, as they are having a conversation with the Lord and they are given white robes to wear and are told to wait a little while longer until their fellow brothers and servants are to be killed in the same way as they had, where they will all be resurrected together at a later time.
That is what happens at the time of death to the spirit/soul. However, when the resurrection and catching away takes place, Jesus will descend from heaven with all of the spirits/souls of all believers and their bodies will be resurrected, where they will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies.
In contrast, when the unrighteous die, their spirits/souls also depart from the body, except that they go to or are taken to Hades where they will be in torment in flame, just as the rich man of the rich man and Lazarus was/is, and will remain there until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, where at which time they will be bodily resurrected as well and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment where they will be judged for every sin that they ever committed.
To recap, at the time of death, it is the spirit/soul (not the body) that goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. Where, at the resurrection and catching away, it involves the reuniting of spirit/soul with the resurrected body. Just as Christ was resurrected in a flesh and bone body (Luke 24:39), so it is also a guarantee to all believers to be resurrected bodily. However, that resurrected body will be an immortal, heavenly, upgraded body, which is referred to as a spiritual body.
The problem that you are encountering is regarding your understanding of the soul/spirit. When the body dies, your soul/spirit, which is not just "breath or wind", but is the essence of who you are except without your body. In that spiritual state you will have all of your faculties just as the souls under the altar did/do. You need take into consideration the scriptures that demonstrate these truths, for that is why God put them in their, to help give us understanding of these spiritual truths. The reason that people don't understand these things is that, they adopt false teachings and then they contend for them, not being open to the truth of scripture.
I would ask you this question, if it was only the breath that returns to God and not the essence of who a person is, then how could Moses and Elijah appear before Christ on the mount of transfiguration and have a conversation with him about his departure?
How could the rich man and father Abraham have a conversation with each other? If the rich man's spirit/soul was just a breath, how could he proclaim to Abraham that he was in torment in the flame? This event demonstrates that the rich man could see, feel and could think, just like he did when he was in his body before it died.
How could Jesus say to the man crucified next to him, "today you will be with me in paradise" when they both died they same day? Obviously their bodies were put into tombs, but their spirits/souls left their bodies and went somewhere else, conscious and aware. For one would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience paradise. You always have to remember that, whenever the word "sleep" is used regarding death, that it is only speaking in regards to the body and not the spirit/soul.
"That Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout and dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are ready that are still alive will be changed and meet him in the air. Well what you did not cover is what happen after they meet in the air. I will feel in what I found and would love to get your feedback on what you found. "
I did answer the question above in the previous post, but I will repost it below for your benefit.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
In the above scripture, Jesus tells his disciples, which of course includes all believers, that he is going back to the Father's house to prepare a place for them and us. Then he says, that since he is going back to prepare a place for us, he will come back and take all believers, dead and living, to be with him. Here he is speaking about the resurrection and catching away when he comes to gather the dead and the living who believed in him. The Father's house can be in reference to one place, which is heaven, and which is where Jesus has been preparing those places for us. That event of his coming to take us back to the Father's house is what the 1 Cor.15:51-53 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 is describing. When this event take place, the dead will rise first and then the living will be transformed and caught up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord in the air, at which point Jesus will take the entire group back with him to the Father's house, that where he is we may be also.
What you have posted above regarding the "first resurrection," is one of the most misunderstood and distorted scriptures. The problem arises when people read the words "first resurrection" they associate "first" with the meaning of "only," as in, that is the only resurrection and therefore, everyone must be resurrected at that time after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. However, the truth of the matter is that, that resurrection which is found in Rev.20:4, is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, only. If you will notice at this resurrection, there is no mention here of the living being changed and caught up, but only those who will have been killed. And the reason that they are said to have been killed, will be because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and because they will not have worshiped the beast or his image and will not have received his mark, which would make this group the great tribulation saints who were introduced in Rev.7. These great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during his thousand year reign on earth (Rev.20:6). In contrast, the church will have been resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of that last seven years in order to be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out.
"but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."
I hope that this helps in giving you some understanding of these issues and events.
Yes, it is the most misunderstood that is why I thought I was thorough on it, yet you missed the scripture I provided that show that he did not take them back to heaven, he landed where the angel state he would and come back to the Mount of Olive. Acts 1:11 – (11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.). And he did, he descended from the cloud, as he ascend up to and came back down to Mount Olive. 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 tells you of him descending back down and calling his saints to meet him in the air. Zechariah 14:1-4 tells you where he takes the saints. They land on the Mount of Olive where he left from and the Angel told the disciples he will return to. You should be able to tell this by what the scripture say, letting you know this happen on the Day of the Lord, which is his coming. Whether anyone believe it or not, he will land on this earth and fight against the nations, as verse 3 states. He will take this earth by force and I included most of the scripture that describe this event in my other posting. I have provided you the scriptures to back up what I am saying will happen after he meet his saints in the air. You provided me your thoughts and words with no scripture to back up that portion of your statement. This make it all assumption. Where did you get this from, if you know it to be the fact? Tell me the scriptures you read it from. For sure God revealed it to us, he wouldn’t leave us hanging on what happens when he return. He doesn’t leave anything open to assumption. The bible said so in Amos 3:7 – (7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. ) Also in 1 Thessalonians 5:12 it say – (21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. ). So I will prove that he plan to habit this earth upon his return. After he land on the Mount of Olive on that day and he battle and take the earth according to Zechariah 14:1-5, further down it tells you that he will be King over the hold earth:
See Zechariah 14:9 – (9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ) and later in Revelation after the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] resurrection the father King, New Jerusalem will come to earth where he will be with us, as well. No where can I find in the Bible that we are going to heaven, only that we can’t go. True he said where he is, we will be also. But people need to research where he will be He is going to be in Jerusalem reign on David’s throne….as per the Bible. Luke 1:30-32
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Where is David's Throne? Jerusalem?
See Zechariah 14:9 – (9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ) and later in Revelation after the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] resurrection the father King, New Jerusalem will come to earth where he will be with us, as well. No where can I find in the Bible that we are going to heaven, only that we can’t go. True he said where he is, we will be also. But people need to research where he will be He is going to be in Jerusalem reign on David’s throne….as per the Bible. Luke 1:30-32
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Where is David's Throne? Jerusalem?
To fall and get back up is one thing. To make a career of sin is another. That's arrogant. 'I don't care if it's wrong. I'm gonna do it anyway'.
Psalm 19:13 Keep back thy servant from presumptuous sins.....
presumptuous: Hebrew: zed: Pride, haughty, arrogant rebellion.
The pastor's wife said in Sunday school ' I don't care if tithing is not a NT command, you better pay it (to the pastor and me) or you are going to be in real trouble with God.' Sweet, sweet! How precious!
The 'out of the closet', in your face brashness of this greedy arrogance can be sampled in the tv evangelists, so called. The spirit of pride and ego exudes from your tv screen with these masters of deceit.
My point. The cleric system bolsters one in his pride. With this might, they lose their sight. By sordid gain, they become insane.
Blind guides indeed!
You say 'you are going to far yet'. If you know you are twisting the word, using it for a means of profit, lying without flinching, then if that's not delusional insanity....what would, in your estimation, qualify for insanity.
We are not just talking about lying to the poor and grandma to relieve them of their paltry pay check, we are talking about using God's name and His word, albeit, twisted, to do so.....right in front of God.....no fear!
Its insane to lie to the powers that be but to lie right in front of God for the sake of mammon, dragging His reputation into the pig slop???.....you tell me that's not insane......just a little.......maybe?
I preach the truth. You deside!
Psalm 19:13 Keep back thy servant from presumptuous sins.....
presumptuous: Hebrew: zed: Pride, haughty, arrogant rebellion.
The pastor's wife said in Sunday school ' I don't care if tithing is not a NT command, you better pay it (to the pastor and me) or you are going to be in real trouble with God.' Sweet, sweet! How precious!
The 'out of the closet', in your face brashness of this greedy arrogance can be sampled in the tv evangelists, so called. The spirit of pride and ego exudes from your tv screen with these masters of deceit.
My point. The cleric system bolsters one in his pride. With this might, they lose their sight. By sordid gain, they become insane.
Blind guides indeed!
You say 'you are going to far yet'. If you know you are twisting the word, using it for a means of profit, lying without flinching, then if that's not delusional insanity....what would, in your estimation, qualify for insanity.
We are not just talking about lying to the poor and grandma to relieve them of their paltry pay check, we are talking about using God's name and His word, albeit, twisted, to do so.....right in front of God.....no fear!
Its insane to lie to the powers that be but to lie right in front of God for the sake of mammon, dragging His reputation into the pig slop???.....you tell me that's not insane......just a little.......maybe?
I preach the truth. You deside!
No, I didn't miss the scripture that you provided. The problem is that you are not understanding that the resurrection and catching away of the church and Christ's return to the earth are two different events which are at least seven years apart. Below is a summary of the order of these two events:
* Jesus descends and gathers the dead and living believers (Resurrection and catching away) and takes them back to the Father's house, where during that time the wedding of the bridegroom and the Bride will take place and is where the Bride, which is the church, will receive her wedding clothes (John.14:1-4, 1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18, Rev.19:6-8)
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* After the seven years have been completed, Christ will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and the church follows behind him out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine line, white and clean. (Mt.25:30-31, Rev.19:11-21). This is where Zech.14:1-4 takes place.
* Jesus descends and gathers the dead and living believers (Resurrection and catching away) and takes them back to the Father's house, where during that time the wedding of the bridegroom and the Bride will take place and is where the Bride, which is the church, will receive her wedding clothes (John.14:1-4, 1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18, Rev.19:6-8)
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* After the seven years have been completed, Christ will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and the church follows behind him out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine line, white and clean. (Mt.25:30-31, Rev.19:11-21). This is where Zech.14:1-4 takes place.
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I have provided the scripture that shows Christ going to the Father's house to prepare a place for all believers and stating that he will then return and take us back to the Father's house as stated as a promise to his disciples and to all believers. Our being taken to the Father's must take place prior to the wrath of God and that because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. So the question is, why are you are claiming that there are no scriptures that teach that we will go to heaven, when it is right in front of you? Surely you must agree that the "Father's house" can only be referring to heaven. And since Jesus is going to prepare a place for us at the Father's house, then when he comes back he will be taking us to heaven, which is where the Father's house is. How difficult is that to understand? Furthermore, the Father's house has nothing to do with the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, but has to do with Jesus coming to take the church out of the world prior to God's wrath being poured out. The new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem does not show up until after the millennial period, where our being taken to the Father's house takes place prior to God's time of his wrath, which is at least a thousand years prior to when the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem come into being.
The event that you are describing above, does not take place until after Christ's thousand year reign on this present earth and after the great white throne judgment has taken place. During or after the great white throne judgment, this present heaven and earth will have departed/passed away, as stated in Rev.20:11, 21:1. What you are not taking into account is that there must be thousand year reign of Christ on this present earth before the new heaven and new earth show up
The event that you are describing above, does not take place until after Christ's thousand year reign on this present earth and after the great white throne judgment has taken place. During or after the great white throne judgment, this present heaven and earth will have departed/passed away, as stated in Rev.20:11, 21:1. What you are not taking into account is that there must be thousand year reign of Christ on this present earth before the new heaven and new earth show up
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Did Christ pay for all sin or just some sin?
Your eating yourself alive Brother. And like I said, It may be your calling and I could be wrong. But Most of the time when I read your posts I just want to grab you by the shoulders and say "snap out of it, your killing yourself."
Sheep who WANT the truth....are going to get it. He takes care of those who WANT it.
The sheep who want their ears tickled....are going to get it. the world takes care of that.
When we are born-again we are Saints. the world may call us liars,cheats,thieves...........and we still may be doing these things overtly, But to God we are considered saints.
Your eating yourself alive Brother. And like I said, It may be your calling and I could be wrong. But Most of the time when I read your posts I just want to grab you by the shoulders and say "snap out of it, your killing yourself."
Sheep who WANT the truth....are going to get it. He takes care of those who WANT it.
The sheep who want their ears tickled....are going to get it. the world takes care of that.
When we are born-again we are Saints. the world may call us liars,cheats,thieves...........and we still may be doing these things overtly, But to God we are considered saints.
I leave self taught and misrepresented people alone when they won't hear. But I will point out that the Bible tells of just one more coming of Christ, not two, if what you say was true, then he has 2 more coming before the final. But all bible scholars know that the Bible teaches of just one return, not two.
I can only ignore people who want to keep false doctrine alive.
Jayoish
The time of Jacobs trouble or the time of the ecclesia's trouble.
Burning our houses down, raping our children, throwing us into fema camps, starving us to death, todturing us, and beheading us...'the blessed hope...comfort one another with these words.' And we are to 'lift our heads and rejoice for our redemption draws near?' If that's the case, then I don't want to have Him return anytime soon. I want to pass away in bed with my loved ones in the room. I'm just saying.
Burning our houses down, raping our children, throwing us into fema camps, starving us to death, todturing us, and beheading us...'the blessed hope...comfort one another with these words.' And we are to 'lift our heads and rejoice for our redemption draws near?' If that's the case, then I don't want to have Him return anytime soon. I want to pass away in bed with my loved ones in the room. I'm just saying.
I was going to say too that works are a result of faith and not the other way around but I thought I already made my point... 
But when we are caught up in thinking we can be good and working to be good, these are dead works, not based on faith in God to change us but rather in ourselves and our own ability.
If we come to see just how bad we truly are, we look to God to keep His promises concerning us.
If we haven't seen how bad we truly are, we believe we are capable of being good.
If you very carefully follow someone in a thread, you can eventually see if they have merely picked a side or if they truly understand this. Some on each side do understand it, though it is claimed they don't by the "other side". And they also claim it of the OTHER side.
Did that make sense? Lol