the rapture

[PlainWord]

Hello PlainWord,

Respectfully, I have to say that I have not seen so much conjecture in place, at one time. How about this: the two witnesses are two men from God, the two olive branches and two lampstands that are before the Lord, who will be prophesying for 3 1/2 years in the streets of Jerusalem and will have power to bring plagues upon the earth as often as they want? When the beast comes up from the Abyss he will kill these two men, which will take place at the end of their 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) and their bodies will lie in the streets not allowing them to be buried. After 3 1/2 days, God will breath life into them (resurrection) and they will ascend up into heaven while the whole world watches on.

With love and respect to you kind sir. If you really believe that a beast is going to crawl up out of the ground and kill two fire breathing men then I've good some land in Florida to sell you. If you read Revelation literally you are making a common but very big mistake. Revelation is loaded with spiritual symbolism. If you miss the symbolism, you miss what John is trying to tell you.

Please look at this verse:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

What does John tell you that a lampstand is in the above? Now read the below from Rev 11 used to describe the 2 witnesses:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

So we see that "LAMPSTANDS" are "CHURCHES." Pretty simple if you ask me.

The above is false, for there is not set formula for prophesy. I'm guessing that you are getting the above from when Peter said, "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." What Peter said here was never meant to be used as a plumb-line for prophecy, but was meant to convey the Lord's patience, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Pet.3:8-9).

You also need to understand this principle.

"And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness. After the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years..." (Numbers 14:33,34a)

"Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year" (Ezekiel 4:4-6).

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city ... from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks ... And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..." (Daniel 9:24-27)

The fact that a day can signify a year is of crucial importance in the study of the bible numbers.
Steve Gregg in his parallel commentary on the four main Protestant views of Revelation lists a number of outstanding theologians who have held the "historicist" view. (The "historicist" regards the Book of Revelation as a survey of the whole of Church history. Personally, I find that all four views compliment one another.)
Concerning the historicist view, Gregg says: "A unique characteristic of this line of interpretation is its advocacy of what is called the "year-for-a-day principle."’" He lists the following among the adherents of the historicist view:

• "John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton." (S. Gregg, "Revelation: Four Views," Nashville: Thomas Nelson Pub, 1997, p. 34.)
  ​

 

[TMS]

Multitudes have been led to believe that Christ will return secretly. What about the so-called secret rapture? A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy and have been hopelessly confused.

According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period takes place.

But the truth is that the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings of Jesus. There is no second stage of His coming that occurs seven years after the so-called "rapture." By the way, that word "rapture" is also an invention of theologians. It can't be found in the Bible in even a single instance. It is a word coined for the second advent of Jesus.

Now here is what we find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matt 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.

 

[TMS]

The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).

Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?

Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "

Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)

 

[TMS]

To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture (Matt 24, Rev 1, Ps 50, 1 Cor 15, Rev 6, above) and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40,41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left".

Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Take note how Jesus taught that the bodies of the wicked are going to be left on the ground for the eagles to consume. Scripture is too plain to be misunderstood. Only as we accept all that the Bible says can we be safe from such deceptive teachings that are confusing millions of sincere Christians today concerning this most glorious event of all ages, the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Now, I realize that the rapturists hang onto the texts that liken the Lord's coming to "a thief in the night." They assume that this must be a quiet, secret coming. But does it really mean that? Let's show that it definitely does not. Here is one of those texts in 2 Pet 3:10: "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." Obviously the "thief' part has nothing to do with secrecy because the heavens will pass away with a great noise! And if coming "as a thief' is the secret rapture which takes place seven years before the end of the world, how can the heavens and earth "pass away," as Peter describes it? The heavens and earth could not pass away seven years before the world ends - that is the end!

The fact is that Jesus Himself explained clearly just how a thief's coming could be related to His coming: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up" (Matt 24:42,43). There it is, so plain and simple! The thief would come unexpectedly when the owners were not looking for a thief. In the same way, His coming would take people by surprise. They would not be watching or looking for it.

 

[TMS]

The dispensationalists teach that the two separate stages of Christ's coming are indicated "in the Greek." They argue that there will first be the rapture (parousia), a secret coming; then seven years later will be the revelation (apokalupsis), His coming in power and glory. But, actually, instead of teaching two separate events, the Greek terms are used interchangeably in the Bible. They give no indication of a seven-year interval.

For example, Paul uses the word "parousia" in the famous rapture chapter of 1 Thessalonians 4 in speaking of the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him. He then goes right on to show that this "parousia" will destroy the man of sin. Speaking of the Antichrist, Paul says, "whom the Lord shall ... destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]" (2 Thes 2:8). These texts clearly describe the coming (parousia) of Christ as taking place after the reign of the man of sin, not as an escape rapture before the reign of the Antichrist begins.

The other Greek word "apokalupsis" (revelation) is used in a way that indicates it is not a separate coming from the time the believers are gathered up. Peter said to "be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation [apokalupsis] of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet 1:13). Why would Christians be exhorted to keep hoping to the very end of the world for the grace brought through the revelation of Christ if their real hope was a secret rapture seven years before the revelation?

Now look at some verses that prove beyond a doubt that the two words "parousia" and "apokalupsis" refer to the same event. In Matt 24:37 we read, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be." Luke's account of the same passage says "As it was in the days of Noe ... Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed [apokalupsis]" (Luke 17:26,30). This shows that the coming (parousia) of Christ and the revelation (apokalupsis) of Christ are the same event. There is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between.

 

[TMS]

Since so much rapturist theology revolves around the seven-year period, one would assume that the Bible must speak frequently of such a time period. But not so. There is not one single scriptural reference that ties the seven years to the end of the world or the coming of Christ. Most rapturist literature mentions the seven-year tribulation period without offering any Bible proof or explanation. Millions have assumed that it must be so well documented that no proof is needed. In fact, the opposite is true. There just isn't any evidence to give.

Most Bible students are amazed to learn that the rapturists try to justify their seven years by lifting a prophecy of Daniel completely out of its context. In Dan 9:24-27 God made a daring prophecy concerning the probation of the nation of Israel. He said to Daniel, "Seventy weeks ['weeks of years' RSV] are determined upon thy people ... to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins" (v. 24). Please notice that God was going to allow Daniel's people seventy weeks to see what they would do with the Messiah when He appeared. The seventy weeks are prophetic time, and each day represents a literal year (Ezek 4:6). So the seventy weeks would be a literal period of 490 years, after which the Israelites would no longer be God's people. They would be rejected as a nation because of their rejection of the Messiah.
Now mark this fact: seventy weeks were assigned to the Jewish probation, but Christ appeared as the Messiah after sixty-nine weeks. That leaves the seventieth week for Christ to minister before the Jews' probation ended. What was to happen in the seventieth week? Dan 9:27 tells us, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

The midst of the week would be three and a half prophetic days (literal years) from His baptism. And according to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for three and a half years. In the spring of A.D. 31 He was crucified. The veil of the temple was rent (Matt 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. By His death He caused them to cease. Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the seventy weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples labored largely for the Jews. But in A.D. 34 the seventy weeks ended; Stephen was stoned and the gospel began to go to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4). The Jews had rejected the gospel message and were no longer God's people - just as Daniel had predicted. Henceforth they could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation, they had been rejected as the chosen people. Here is the way the Bible describes that rejection:
Matt 21:43 "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you."

Matt 21:19 "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." (The fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish nation.)

Matt 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

gal 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Rom 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Rom 9:6-10 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children; but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are ... the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (The New Testament teaches the acceptance of spiritual Israel, and the rejection of physical Israel and the children of the flesh.)

Rom 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter."

Acts 13:46 "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

The rapturists get their seven years' tribulation by lifting that seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy completely out of its context and shoving it far into the future. They claim it will be fulfilled after Christ comes to snatch away the righteous secretly. Incredible? Absolutely! But they must grasp desperately for some text to support their seven years. They agree that the sixty-nine weeks of Dan 9:25 refer to the period before Christ's first advent, but then they insert a 2,000-year gap before the seventieth week is fulfilled. They allot 69 weeks plus 2,000 years plus one week, or a total of 2,490 years. By this devious manipulation of God's Word, the rapturists believe they have extended the Jewish probation; and based upon this, they teach that all the fleshly Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the "secret rapture" takes place.

The tragedy of the rapture theory is that it takes these beautiful verses of Dan 9:24-27 that predict the coming of Jesus, His baptism and crucifixion, and apply them to Antichrist. They do this by stating that it is Antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and one-half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done, and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic occurrence. And yet this is the only way one can arrive at a seven-year tribulation period. How sad!

 

[TMS]

Finally, the secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved. Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:

2 Cor 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Rev 22:11,12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the Second Advent.)

Jer 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle" (Rev 14:14). This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world" (Mat 13:39). "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16). Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved" (Jer 8:20). There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.

When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matt 25:32). There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ.

Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these man made, man pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earthshaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes 4:17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thes 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus.

 

[popeye]

Finally, the secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved. Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:

2 Cor 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Rev 22:11,12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the Second Advent.)

Jer 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle" (Rev 14:14). This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world" (Mat 13:39). "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16). Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved" (Jer 8:20). There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.

When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matt 25:32). There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ.

Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these man made, man pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earthshaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes 4:17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thes 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus.

Pure baloney
The prodigal got a second chance,the 7 letters to the churches are loaded with second chances,even Jezebel was offered a second chance and she rejected it.

Miriam got a second chance from her leprosy God gave to her.

These are all off the top of my head,not to mention the fact that Israel fell over and over,but GOD TOOK HIS PEOPLE BACK.

PETER actually rejected Jesus publicly and Jesus took him back.

You do mot know your bible. You are definitely DECEIVED.

Psssst,harvest has 4 parts. That is the basis for studying the harvest.

That is where you may want to go back and consider where you erroneously placed the harvest with a sickle.(which is During the GT)

 

[popeye]

Finally, the secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved. Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:

2 Cor 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Rev 22:11,12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the Second Advent.)

Jer 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle" (Rev 14:14). This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world" (Mat 13:39). "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16). Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved" (Jer 8:20). There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.

When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matt 25:32). There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ.

Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these man made, man pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earthshaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes 4:17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thes 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus.

Pure baloney
The prodigal got a second chance,the 7 letters to the churches are loaded with second chances,even Jezebel was offered a second chance and she rejected it.

Miriam got a second chance from her leprosy God gave to her.

These are all off the top of my head,not to mention the fact that Israel fell over and over,but GOD TOOK HIS PEOPLE BACK.

PETER actually rejected Jesus publicly and Jesus took him back.

You do mot know your bible. You are definitely DECEIVED.

Psssst,harvest has 4 parts. That is the basis for studying the harvest.

That is where you may want to go back and consider where you erroneously placed the harvest with a sickle.(which is During the GT)

 

[PlainWord]

Popeye,

TMS has most of it right. He has all of the "Rapture" timing right. He's a little off about Israel and he's a little off about there being no second chances.

Concerning Israel, their covenant as God's People is an everlasting unilateral covenant. Even though Israel rejected Christ as a nation, many and I mean a lot of Jews, accepted Christ. The early churches were mostly Jewish. Paul teaches in Romans 11 that Israel is the natural olive tree that we Gentiles will be grafted in. Paul teaches in Galatians 4 that Israel are the "Children of Promise." Further Zech 13-14 teach that 2/3 of Israel will be cut off but 1/3 will be saved as a nation.

Concerning Second Chances, I agree for some there will be no second chance. Those who have been following the BEAST and worshiping the Great Harlot, ISLAM, there will be no second chance. These Muslim tares (who have been growing up beside the Jewish wheat) will be snatched away and taken to "Where the Eagles are gathered" to be slaughtered at Armageddon. Mat 13 teaches us about the wheat and tares. Gal 4 identifies the tares as the Children of Hagar (and Ishmael by implication). Rev 14:9-11 speaks of their demise and it is not a pretty picture being painted for the people of Islam:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

We see that the above condemned people are discussed in Rev 17:8 and that they are not found in the Book of Life. This is really tragic. Those deceived by Satan's prophet are following Satan (the Father of lies and murderers) and not our God.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

However, I do see a second chance for others. We see that once Christ returns, there is still hope for non-Muslims to accept Jesus. Rev 14 starts by showing Jesus on Mt. Zion with the 144,000. Then we see the 1st proclaiming angel give this warning:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— [SUP]7 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

The above is hope and a chance to now worship God. The next angel tells us that Babylon (ISLAM) has been destroyed.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

That global false angry murderous religion that has indeed deceived 1/4 of the world is fallen. We see also in Acts 2 that there is still time for salvation when the Lord returns for those who then see and believe:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

So I give high marks to TMS for rejecting the pre-trib rapture lie and his arguments against this utter nonsense are sound and very well stated.

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord, you've not had a break from the rapture threads for so long. People with careers realize the need to take vacation time. You should also get out more, smell the roses, before the antichrist comes for your head. (Though it's uncertain he'd find you objectionable, but this another matter.)

Anyway, if you want to take a break, I'm willing to fill in, provide this article, surely your favorite, which, after all, explains the rapture much better. If more people read it, we could end rapture threads, and you could get out of that rut, advance your career to disputing, say, even more fundamental doctrines! Open your own business, Preterists R Us, I don't know... go to the Amazon basin, mislead some lost tribe, after all, easier when they don't have scripture... learn jet engine maintenance and work for Kenneth Copeland or Creflo Dollar... maybe just stay here and gnaw away at eternal security, sell kippahs and sabbaths...

Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture​

Ok JesusIsAll:

I read your article and cut and pasted the key points where the author is out to lunch.

B) The Bible is to be Interpreted Literally
God means what He says and says what He means. God wants His creations to know His will plainly. While God does indulge in picturesque descriptions and parables, an explanation almost always follows or context is provided for explanation. Spiritualization of text, therefore, has no proper place in interpreting Scriptures. Any eschatological viewpoint must then be thrown out if it is based on the reader’s desire to spiritualize the Bible into whatever ethereal meaning they desire. Take the Bible for its plain sense meaning.

To take the whole Bible literally is to miss all the spiritual symbolism that exists in Revelation which symbols are found in the teachings of the OT prophets. It is a colossal mistake of unbelievable proportions to take the entire Bible literally.

E) A Literal 7-Year Tribulation
An upcoming time period has been set aside for God to pour out His wrath upon the evil of the world, to regather Israel back into its land, to force Israel to acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah, and for the Messiah to return and fight for His believing remnant (Deut. 4:26-31; Isa. 13:6-13; 17:4-11; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:33-38; Dan. 9:27; 12:1; Zech. 14:1-4; Matt. 24:9-31). This time period begins with a covenant between Israel and the Antichrist (Dan. 9:27). The length of the Tribulation is seven years long…

The author completely misunderstands Dan 9. The author completely confuses the Great Tribulation as God's Wrath. This mistake plagues all pre-tribbers. I've said this until I'm blue in the face.

The Great Tribulation = Satan's Wrath against God's People
God's Wrath comes after Satan's wrath and is in direct response to it. God shortens "those days" of Satan's wrath. If He didn't, there would be no flesh left alive.

The Great Tribulation is a real event but it is not global per se. The Great Tribulation is when ISLAMIC forces, backed by Russia, attack and destroy 2/3 of Israel. Jesus tells us in Mat 24 and Mark 13 that "those in Judea are to flee." Dan 12 tells us that it will be a time of trouble since no nation was on earth. Jer 30 calls it "Jacob's Trouble." Zech 13-14 further shows the horror that will come to the restored Israel but that at the last moment, God intervenes. Ezek 38-39 give us great detail about who those nations we be who attack Israel prior to the Day of the Lord (Wrath of God).

Not understanding what the Great Tribulation is, who is behind it, and who it is aimed at is causing your Pre-Tribbers enormous problems. You all need to go back with an open mind and study it.

G) The Bible Teaches About a Rapture
1 Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of an event called “the Rapture”, Latin “rapio,” Greek “harpazo,” which means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Paul states that the concept of the Rapture is meant to encourage believers during this Age (1 Thes. 4:18). Other New Testament references on the Rapture are Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; and 1 Thes. 4:13-18

Yes, but the timing is always clear. This happens after the Resurrection and after the Man of Sin. Pre-tribbers always stop at 1 Thes 4:18. If you read on 2 more verses (there are no chapters and verses in letters) you see the continuation of the events Paul is describing:

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

Paul makes clear that the event he describes in 1 Thes 4 is associated with the Day of the Lord and that "we" are still here. We are to watch and not let this Day overtake us like a thief. The Day of the Lord is AFTER Satan's Great Tribulation. Paul then writes a second letter to the Thessalonians because they were confused and though they missed the Second Coming. Paul gives this clear and concise warning to NOT BE DECEIVED as to the timing of the Day of Christ:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Man of Sin comes first. Therefore the Man of Sin appears before Christ appears. This is how so many will be deceived (even more than are deceived now). What day will not come unless? The Day of the Coming of Christ and our Gathering...

 

[SIRGEORGIAN]

Below is not my work. (Copy paste)
I am not a pre or post trib. I'm amillennialist. Just food for thought.

The Second Coming of Christ..... "Rapture": Endtimes Conference Proves Post-Trib Rapture

 

[JesusIsAll]

To take the whole Bible literally is to miss all the spiritual symbolism that exists in Revelation which symbols are found in the teachings of the OT prophets. It is a colossal mistake of unbelievable proportions to take the entire Bible literally.

This is the sort of statement that makes it near useless to communicate with you, PlainWord. It's either excessively ignorant or deceptive. There is no Bible scholar on the planet, of any literal school, who has ever once said the entire Bible is literal. Sorry, but this is such a stupid, false statement, don't know how else to put it, and a statement highly suspect of typically deceptive, baiting behavior of a tare, since I can't believe you're so dumb to accuse anybody of taking the entire Bible literally. And people have accepted clear, plain truths in the New Testament, much also plainly reflected in the Old Testament, across a wide spectrum of doctrine, the past couple thousand years, most of Christendom down the ages of the truth that the Bible means what it says, first and foremost. You're actually down with the methodology of cults, PlainWord, who allegorize away any truth that gores their ox of false prophecy. You must think God is like Nostradamus, where you just assign values to words and phrases that fit the newspaper or your prejudices, that He gave us symbolic gobbledygook to muddle through. Actually, all you can do is try to pervert the literal, and all such perversions are simply private interpretations the context of Bible scripture will not support. In addition, the Bible makes sense to me, cover to cover, symbols and all quite consistent. It's you who makes no sense.

Let's just forget common rules of exegesis, then, you claim to be oblivious to. And since you don't get scripture, let's try reason: consider this. (May as well, while you're hanging around, waiting for the antichrist, instead of Jesus Christ, to appear. By the way, just what is that hope? It's not a "blessed hope." What do you call it? A "wretched debacle" you're waiting on?) I love common sense. Common sense reflects reality, and the Lord is of reason, is consistent and not the author of confusion. Somebody without common sense is generally thought of as being inconsistent, out of touch with reality and often dumb, but generally untrustworthy, wouldn't you agree?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

The Lord's statement here makes common sense, does it not? He was pointing to pure common sense. In the same vein, PlainWord, you've got some really whacked concept of God. Your God opens the seals of Revelation, throws His bride to the wolves, bloodies her up real good, then what? He says, "Hey, baby! Now let's go get married!"?

Ever seen those true crime stories, where a man murders his spouse, turns out is a bigtime, abusive psycho? I can't think of a one such beast who didn't behave before the wedding, and even after the wedding, for a time. What you're saying is this evil man knows better how to behave than God, your God, it appears, having no concept of love for His innocent, in the blood of Christ, bride, or even how to behave when courting. So, the most evil man knows how to do obvious right, but not your God?

We know you have a serious problem with exegesis, PlainWord, but are you also common sense challenged? Tell you what, if I thought you had children, I'd be on the horn with Child Protective Services! Do you tell them Jesus is going to send the boogeyman after them, to lop their heads? Did you felony assault your bride?

 

[popeye]

To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture (Matt 24, Rev 1, Ps 50, 1 Cor 15, Rev 6, above) and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40,41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left".

Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Take note how Jesus taught that the bodies of the wicked are going to be left on the ground for the eagles to consume. Scripture is too plain to be misunderstood. Only as we accept all that the Bible says can we be safe from such deceptive teachings that are confusing millions of sincere Christians today concerning this most glorious event of all ages, the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Now, I realize that the rapturists hang onto the texts that liken the Lord's coming to "a thief in the night." They assume that this must be a quiet, secret coming. But does it really mean that? Let's show that it definitely does not. Here is one of those texts in 2 Pet 3:10: "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." Obviously the "thief' part has nothing to do with secrecy because the heavens will pass away with a great noise! And if coming "as a thief' is the secret rapture which takes place seven years before the end of the world, how can the heavens and earth "pass away," as Peter describes it? The heavens and earth could not pass away seven years before the world ends - that is the end!

The fact is that Jesus Himself explained clearly just how a thief's coming could be related to His coming: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up" (Matt 24:42,43). There it is, so plain and simple! The thief would come unexpectedly when the owners were not looking for a thief. In the same way, His coming would take people by surprise. They would not be watching or looking for it.

The secret rapture cliché comes from your camp. You guys invented it.

Comes as a thief is biblical.

Prove me wrong,and show us how it is common knowledge for thieves to announce and give clues as to their coming to your house

N

 

[popeye]

Your problem lies in the following verse:


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."


The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.


It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.


After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.


This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.


The subject of the next five verses are “where are the dead”. The following answers that.


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.


When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."


Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.


The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.


When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.


God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

You are talking out of a postrib workbook.

We take the debate elsewhere (the bible)

That is why you did not know of the myriad of second chances you say are not in the word.

Postrib is a doctrine of cliches. Once you run out of them,we usually see you guys go personal and start slamming us personally

You don't even know that the AC kills all refusing the mark.
You never were taught that were you?

 

[PlainWord]

This is the sort of statement that makes it near useless to communicate with you, PlainWord. It's either excessively ignorant or deceptive. There is no Bible scholar on the planet, of any literal school, who has ever once said the entire Bible is literal. Sorry, but this is such a stupid, false statement, don't know how else to put it, and a statement highly suspect of typically deceptive, baiting behavior of a tare, since I can't believe you're so dumb to accuse anybody of taking the entire Bible literally. And people have accepted clear, plain truths in the New Testament, much also plainly reflected in the Old Testament, across a wide spectrum of doctrine, the past couple thousand years, most of Christendom down the ages of the truth that the Bible means what it says, first and foremost. You're actually down with the methodology of cults, PlainWord, who allegorize away any truth that gores their ox of false prophecy. You must think God is like Nostradamus, where you just assign values to words and phrases that fit the newspaper or your prejudices, that He gave us symbolic gobbledygook to muddle through. Actually, all you can do is try to pervert the literal, and all such perversions are simply private interpretations the context of Bible scripture will not support. In addition, the Bible makes sense to me, cover to cover, symbols and all quite consistent. It's you who makes no sense.

While it is tempting to engage you in a name calling contest I will refrain because A) I'm a better Christian than that and B) the fruits of your mouth indict and judge your character far better than I could.

JesusIsAll,

The first thing a student of the Bible must understand is CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Understand the situation and place yourself in the shoes of the author, in this case John. John was writing from Patmos after all other disciples were martyred for their faith. John was the last one alive. He was a prisoner of Rome under constant threat of death. John was given an amazing message of future events and told to pass it on to the 7 Churches in Asia-Minor (Modern day Turkey). These were his Churches that he disciples to. He knew the people there personally. The churches were also under constant persecution and threat. If John's letters were found or fell into enemy hands, he and the churches would be in dire straights if he wrote in plain language (Greek). So he wrote in what is called Apocalyptic Literally Style which was very popular in his day and yes, even in the day of Nostradamus. The symbols John used can all be found in use by the OT prophets. A true Christian would understand the meaning, a Roman would not (and apparently you don't either). John tells each church that he is writing in Biblical code (symbolism) when he says this:

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

John tells us in Rev 17: “Here is the mind which has wisdom:

This means what he is saying is not obvious. It takes wisdom and understanding.

I'm seriously trying to help you and yes it is difficult to communicate with you too. I think you may have misunderstood me. What I am trying to tell you is that the Bible is loaded with spiritual symbolism especially when discussing prophesy. Let me show you a couple of examples.

Often times Biblical symbols are defined like here:

Rev 1: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Dan 7: [SUP]17 [/SUP]‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Thus he said:‘The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,Which shall be different from all other kingdoms...


Dan 8: [SUP]20 [/SUP]The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.

Rev 17: [SUP]12 [/SUP]“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet..Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Thus:

STARS = ANGELS
LAMPSTAND = CHURCH
BEAST = KINGS/KINGDOMS
RAM = MEDO-PERSIA
GOAT = GREECE
HORN = KING
WATERS = MANY PEOPLES/NATIONS/LANGUAGES

Sometimes the definition is not found exactly with the text but the use of these symbols (to a student of prophesy) makes clear the meaning such as in these examples:

Jer 3: So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.

HARLOTRY = IDOL or FALSE WORSHIP

Unless of course you think people are cheating on their spouses by sleeping with rocks and trees?

Jer 5: Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

FIRE = CONVICTING TRUTH WHICH CANNOT BE REFUTED AND SILENCES THE OPPONENT
WOOD = PEOPLE

Isa 2: Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord’s house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.Dan 2: And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Eze 18: And does none of those duties, But has eaten on the mountains Or defiled his neighbor’s wife; Jer 3: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. Jer 51: “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain.

MOUNTAIN = SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY (GOOD or BAD), DOCTRINE, LAW, RELIGION

Sometimes John's use of symbols matches perfectly the same lesson taught by the prophets. The below two passages are related.

Jer 51: “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain.

Rev 8:[SUP] 8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Literal Meaning: A burning asteroid coming to earth and crashing into the ocean killing 1/3 of everything.
Spiritual Meaning: A False religion which has taken over 1/3 of the earth will be destroyed

So is God against an asteroid or is He against ISLAM (for example)?

You are clearly blinded by spiritual symbolism. You don't get it. You should Google "Biblical Symbols" and study up on their meaning. Instead you mock that which you do not understand. Why don't you go tell Steven Hawking that you are better at math than him, while you are at it?

 

[EarsToHear]

You are talking out of a postrib workbook.

We take the debate elsewhere (the bible)

That is why you did not know of the myriad of second chances you say are not in the word.

Postrib is a doctrine of cliches. Once you run out of them,we usually see you guys go personal and start slamming us personally

You don't even know that the AC kills all refusing the mark.
You never were taught that were you?

2 Peter 3:1-4
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.


Acts 28:25-27
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoAken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[popeye]

2 Peter 3:1-4
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.


Acts 28:25-27
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoAken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Postrib default mode.
Personally attack your challenger.

I will take it you are outta gas huh?

 

[EarsToHear]

Postrib default mode.
Personally attack your challenger.

I will take it you are outta gas huh?

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"


This is the famine Jesus spoke about in Mark 13:8. and in Matthew 24:7. It is not for food or drink, but for the "hearing of the word of the Lord". My friend, this famine is here and on us now. There is a famine now, for traditions and church social systems are what is taught and held in high esteem. A preacher committed to a denomination is allowed to teach only what is set under the banner of that denomination, and in most cases that teaching is far from the truths within the Word of God.


There is a spiritual war going on now in the world. Can you imagine going into a battle with only infants and babies still on the milk bottle? Sadly, most churchmen are as prepared to meet Antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek) as a one-year old would be to face a charging enemy. What are you taught in your church that would prepare you for that battle? You will face Satan and all his forces in this generation, and that is why you must have your spiritual armor on and in place, ready to do spiritual battle with the enemy. Do you even know what the enemy looks like, or what his weapons of spiritual destruction will be? This is why the famine coming on our land and throughout the entire world is so serious, for people will not be ready for the battle Satan will bring upon the earth.


Furthermore, Our Heavenly Father laughs when He watches down on all the ignorance that is going on under the name of education, politics, and religion today. God will take their extensive plans and mix them up to where there is nothing but confusion.

 

[popeye]

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"


This is the famine Jesus spoke about in Mark 13:8. and in Matthew 24:7. It is not for food or drink, but for the "hearing of the word of the Lord". My friend, this famine is here and on us now. There is a famine now, for traditions and church social systems are what is taught and held in high esteem. A preacher committed to a denomination is allowed to teach only what is set under the banner of that denomination, and in most cases that teaching is far from the truths within the Word of God.


There is a spiritual war going on now in the world. Can you imagine going into a battle with only infants and babies still on the milk bottle? Sadly, most churchmen are as prepared to meet Antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek) as a one-year old would be to face a charging enemy. What are you taught in your church that would prepare you for that battle? You will face Satan and all his forces in this generation, and that is why you must have your spiritual armor on and in place, ready to do spiritual battle with the enemy. Do you even know what the enemy looks like, or what his weapons of spiritual destruction will be? This is why the famine coming on our land and throughout the entire world is so serious, for people will not be ready for the battle Satan will bring upon the earth.


Furthermore, Our Heavenly Father laughs when He watches down on all the ignorance that is going on under the name of education, politics, and religion today. God will take their extensive plans and mix them up to where there is nothing but confusion.

Um,no.

You will not fight the AC.
The word says he is given power to overcome the saints.
He beheads all refusing the mark.

You guys have made up the notion you are going to be chased all over the planet by a demonic freak.

It even says not to resist,and "blessed are those that die from this point forward"

You guys bring partial bibles to the table,get shellacked,then go after us personally.

I advise scrapping your concepts and standing toe to toe with bible in hand.

The crossroad will be you changing your mind or changing verses.